Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:19 AM - Re: Rotax Charging System (user9253)
2. 05:08 AM - COIL INRUSH CURRENT (user9253)
3. 05:30 AM - Re: Re: Ducati Regulator (too little load) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 05:51 AM - Re: COIL INRUSH CURRENT (Charles Davis)
5. 06:55 AM - Re: COIL INRUSH CURRENT (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 07:04 AM - Re: COIL INRUSH CURRENT (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 07:25 AM - Re: COIL INRUSH CURRENT (C&K)
8. 07:43 AM - Removing Pins from High Density D-Sub Connector (Art Zemon)
9. 07:49 AM - Re: Removing Pins from High Density D-Sub Connector (Roger Curtis)
10. 08:29 AM - Re: Removing Pins from High Density D-Sub Connector (Tim Olson)
11. 08:51 AM - Re: Removing Pins from High Density D-Sub Connector (Charlie England)
12. 08:53 AM - Re: Removing Pins from High Density D-Sub Connector (Carlos Trigo)
13. 09:19 AM - Re: Removing Pins from High Density D-Sub Connector (William Hunter)
14. 09:43 AM - Re: Removing Pins from High Density D-Sub Connector (Carlos Trigo)
15. 12:39 PM - Re: Removing Pins from High Density D-Sub Connector (Ernest Christley)
16. 07:37 PM - Re: Re: B&C switches (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Rotax Charging System |
Even if the battery is disconnected, I do not think that the capacitor does much
good. When my PC680 failed open, the alternator voltage was unstable. However,
Rotax documentation calls for a capacitor. It is best to follow manufacturer's
instructions. They might know something that I don't.
> As long as you have a battery on line,
> the capacitor serves no demonstrable purpose.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480875#480875
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Subject: | COIL INRUSH CURRENT |
Below is a quote from a VansAirforce post. Why is the inrush current higher than
steady state current? Inductors oppose any change in current. Why doesn't
that opposition limit the inrush current? I am not questioning the accuracy
of the measurements, just trying to understand the laws of physics.
> All of this is for the four-post starter solenoid (ACS 11-03162):
> Without flyback diode: -510V peak pulse
> Current through flyback diode: 6.3A decaying over about 40 ms
> Coil inrush current: 7.3A
> Coil steady state current: 3.6A
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480876#480876
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Subject: | Re: Ducati Regulator (too little load) |
At 11:55 PM 6/12/2018, you wrote:
>At 07:18 PM 6/12/2018, you wrote:
>
>Agreed. Some regulators regulate by adding a parallel resistance to
>short out excess current.
>
> nobody does that any more . . . VERY inefficient.
Hmmmm . . . seems I was half right. The shunt regulator
is horribly inefficient but no . . . there ARE some
individuals pursuing the shunt style regulation
topology. For example, I found this article out
there on the web:
https://goo.gl/ofvHSe
It took a bit to noodle through the functionality
of this design. If one studies the wiring of
the bridge rectifiers, you see that they are
set up to be classic, three phase rectifiers
essentially UNCONTROLLED. This means that if
the SCR's were left out of the circuit, the
alternator's three phase output is simply
rectified and pumped directly to the bus.
The ONLY time an SCR would be capable of conducting
current is during the OFF or reverse-voltage
interval on the companion rectifier leg. Any
time the SCR is in conduction, there is a SHORT
across the windings of the alternator . . .
How to make a reliable motorcycle voltage regulator
Note the boss-hog heat sink recommended in this
design. As long as system demands are a substantial
percentage of the alternator's output, the ON-
time for SCRs is low. But during normal ops with
low system loads, the SCRs will be working hard . . .
as will the alternator.
One could argue that this design is thermally
robust and may indeed last longer than
the stock or aftermarket devices tried . . . but
as noted elsewhere in this thread, beefing up
the 'weakest link' in the chain may well move
the failure to some other component in the system.
Not sure that the first and follow-on authors
of the DIY thread will report their long term
experiences with alternator failures . . . and
who knows, maybe the heat rejection profile
of the alternator is robust enough to handle
this mode of operation.
I have to believe that there must be SOME
off-the-shelf designs out there that subscribe
to the shunt regulation philosophy. As seen
above, it's hard to beat the simplicity!
So I'll walk back my earlier assertion but
with a sense of . . . well . . . don't
need to go there.
We do know that the Ducatti design is not
a 'shunt regulation' topology . . .
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: COIL INRUSH CURRENT |
From what I understand, once there is an iron core inside the coil, the
current through the coil will decrease, if the coil is energised for a
longish period without the iron, it will overheat - have seen this many
times with solenoids controlling gas in refrigeration systems where the
coil housing melts to destruction if not fitted onto the solenoid properly
Charles
On 14-Jun-18 2:08 PM, user9253 wrote:
>
> Below is a quote from a VansAirforce post. Why is the inrush current higher
than steady state current? Inductors oppose any change in current. Why doesn't
that opposition limit the inrush current? I am not questioning the accuracy
of the measurements, just trying to understand the laws of physics.
>
>> All of this is for the four-post starter solenoid (ACS 11-03162):
>> Without flyback diode: -510V peak pulse
>> Current through flyback diode: 6.3A decaying over about 40 ms
>> Coil inrush current: 7.3A
>> Coil steady state current: 3.6A
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480876#480876
>
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
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Subject: | Re: COIL INRUSH CURRENT |
At 07:08 AM 6/14/2018, you wrote:
>
>Below is a quote from a VansAirforce post. Why is the inrush
>current higher than steady state current? Inductors oppose any
>change in current. Why doesn't that opposition limit the inrush
>current? I am not questioning the accuracy of the measurements,
>just trying to understand the laws of physics.
>
> > All of this is for the four-post starter solenoid (ACS 11-03162):
> > Without flyback diode: -510V peak pulse
> > Current through flyback diode: 6.3A decaying over about 40 ms
> > Coil inrush current: 7.3A
> > Coil steady state current: 3.6A
It's probably vagaries of semantics and
test setup. This is why it's important to
publish schematics of test setups, screen
shots of traces and showing all the
steps in the math.
We KNOW that unlike the charging profile
for a capacitor (infinite onset current
flow) the inductor has a zero onset
current flow. The begs explanation
for the author's definition of 'inrush'
current.
I'm guessing that the 7.3A figure was
measured at the greatest stabilized
current observed after application of power.
This would be the t=L/R plot coming
asymptotic to I=E/R several time constants
after switch closure. Not what we normally
refer to as inrush current. I'm guessing
that the 'steady state' value is due to
coil heating up after an extended period
of power on.
Here's what the numbers look like for
a continuous duty battery contactor:
https://goo.gl/gvX4mu
https://goo.gl/cpzthL
The starter contactor may well present
a higher ratio of cold to hot because it's
an intermittent duty device suffering a
greater copper temperature rise than the
battery contactor.
The 6.3A figure for diode current is
probably taken after a short but stabilized
contactor coil current of that same value.
The initial discharge of a capacitor is
the same as the voltage to which the capacitor
is charged. Discharge of the inductor yields
and initial current flow equal to that which
was flowing in the inductor . . . i.e. the
contactor was de=energized at 6.3A. Hence
catch diode current would peak at 6.3A
and decay along the t=L/R plot.
Without seeing the test setup and plots, it's just
guessing . . .
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: COIL INRUSH CURRENT |
At 07:50 AM 6/14/2018, you wrote:
><charlesdavis@iuncapped.co.za>
>
> From what I understand, once there is an iron core inside the coil,
> the current through the coil will decrease, if the coil is
> energised for a longish period without the iron, it will overheat -
> have seen this many times with solenoids controlling gas in
> refrigeration systems where the coil housing melts to destruction
> if not fitted onto the solenoid properly
Adding a core material does INCREASE the
inductance of a coil. The time constant
for charging an inductance is t(seconds)
L(henries)/R(ohms).
Adding the core increases L but the resistance
is unchanged. Hence, t= goes up. I.e. time to
charge the coil is longer. Keep in mind that
the values of t are on the order of tens of
milliseconds.
Heating is purely a function of the DC resistance
of the coil and the applied voltage which
has nothing to do with the magnitude
of inductance. The time constant for heating
is about 1000 times longer than for current
rise. I.e. measured in minutes.
The classic definition of 'inrush' is that
current which flows the instant power is applied
to the device. For capacitors, inrush is very
large, for inductors it is zero.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: COIL INRUSH CURRENT |
If we are thinking of similar "longish periods" perhaps the iron core is
just conducting heat away perhaps assisted by the refrigerant flow.
Ken
On 14/06/2018 8:50 AM, Charles Davis wrote:
> <charlesdavis@iuncapped.co.za>
>
> From what I understand, once there is an iron core inside the coil,
> the current through the coil will decrease, if the coil is energised
> for a longish period without the iron, it will overheat - have seen
> this many times with solenoids controlling gas in refrigeration
> systems where the coil housing melts to destruction if not fitted onto
> the solenoid properly
>
> Charles
>
>
> On 14-Jun-18 2:08 PM, user9253 wrote:
>>
>> Below is a quote from a VansAirforce post. Why is the inrush current
>> higher than steady state current? Inductors oppose any change in
>> current. Why doesn't that opposition limit the inrush current? I am
>> not questioning the accuracy of the measurements, just trying to
>> understand the laws of physics.
>>
>>> All of this is for the four-post starter solenoid (ACS 11-03162):
>>> Without flyback diode: -510V peak pulse
>>> Current through flyback diode: 6.3A decaying over about 40 ms
>>> Coil inrush current: 7.3A
>>> Coil steady state current: 3.6A
>>
>> --------
>> Joe Gores
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480876#480876
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Removing Pins from High Density D-Sub Connector |
Folks,
It's not my fault... I'm sure that the pins moved by themselves in the
middle of the night... but some of the pins in my high density D-Sub
connector are in the wrong places.
I have the right tool:
https://www.steinair.com/product/insertionremoval-tool-for-high-density-d-sub-pins-mil-spec/
I have successfully removed regular density pins from DB-25 connectors.
These darned high-density pins refuse to come loose.
Before I make things worse, do you have any suggestions?
-- Art Z.
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."*
Message 9
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Subject: | Removing Pins from High Density D-Sub Connector |
CiAgICAKQXJ0LCBJIGFzc3VtZSB5b3UgYXJlIHVzaW5nIHRoZSBjb3JyZWN0IHRvb2wgc2luY2Ug
dGhlIGhpZ2gtZGVuc2l0eSBhbmQgcmVndWxhciBEIGNvbm5lY3RvciB1c2UgZGlmZmVyZW50IHRv
b2xzCgoKU2VudCBmcm9tIG15IFZlcml6b24gV2lyZWxlc3MgNEcgTFRFIHNtYXJ0cGhvbmUKCi0t
LS0tLS0tIE9yaWdpbmFsIG1lc3NhZ2UgLS0tLS0tLS0KRnJvbTogQXJ0IFplbW9uIDxhcnRAemVt
b24ubmFtZT4gCkRhdGU6IDA2LzE0LzIwMTggIDEwOjQyICAoR01ULTA1OjAwKSAKVG86IGFlcm9l
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dCdzIG5vdCBteSBmYXVsdC4uLiBJJ20gc3VyZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBwaW5zIG1vdmVkIGJ5IHRoZW1z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Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Removing Pins from High Density D-Sub Connector |
My advice is to buy multiples of the tool and in multiple versions. I have m
etal and plastic versions and have about 3 of each because they are so easy t
o wreck. The process works the same as standard pins and I know of no trick
other than to try the other version of tool.
Tim
> On Jun 14, 2018, at 10:49 AM, Roger Curtis <rnjcurtis@charter.net> wrote:
>
> Art, I assume you are using the correct tool since the high-density and re
gular D connector use different tools
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Art Zemon <art@zemon.name>
> Date: 06/14/2018 10:42 (GMT-05:00)
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Removing Pins from High Density D-Sub Connecto
r
>
> Folks,
>
> It's not my fault... I'm sure that the pins moved by themselves in the mid
dle of the night... but some of the pins in my high density D-Sub connector a
re in the wrong places.
>
> I have the right tool: https://www.steinair.com/product/insertionremoval-t
ool-for-high-density-d-sub-pins-mil-spec/
> I have successfully removed regular density pins from DB-25 connectors.
> These darned high-density pins refuse to come loose.
>
> Before I make things worse, do you have any suggestions?
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> "We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Removing Pins from High Density D-Sub Connector |
Yeah, it kinda comes down to 'holding your mouth right'. :-)
Instructions on extractor use are virtually non-existent. On the rare
occasions I've had to use one, it takes me about 15 minutes to get
everything right & get the pin out. Then I forget what I did before the
next time I need to extract one.
As nearly as I can tell, the goal is for the tool to push back the
little retainer 'burr' while the pin slides past. Problem is, the pin
can't get past the tool (same diameter). And if you have the bad luck to
insert the tool where the slot is over the 'burr', nothing works. What I
try is to push the tool in as deep as it will go, and while holding it
in, pull back slightly on the wire. Then grab the wire and tool with a
pair of needle nose pliers & pull. If it doesn't work, I rotate the tool
a quarter to 1/2 turn, and repeat.
Charlie
On 6/14/2018 10:10 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
> My advice is to buy multiples of the tool and in multiple versions. I
> have metal and plastic versions and have about 3 of each because they
> are so easy to wreck. The process works the same as standard pins and
> I know of no trick other than to try the other version of tool.
> Tim
>
> On Jun 14, 2018, at 10:49 AM, Roger Curtis <rnjcurtis@charter.net
> <mailto:rnjcurtis@charter.net>> wrote:
>
>> Art, I assume you are using the correct tool since the high-density
>> and regular D connector use different tools
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Art Zemon <art@zemon.name <mailto:art@zemon.name>>
>> Date: 06/14/2018 10:42 (GMT-05:00)
>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>> <mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Removing Pins from High Density D-Sub
>> Connector
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>> It's not my fault... I'm sure that the pins moved by themselves in
>> the middle of the night... but some of the pins in my high density
>> D-Sub connector are in the wrong places.
>>
>> I have the right tool:
>> https://www.steinair.com/product/insertionremoval-tool-for-high-density-d-sub-pins-mil-spec/
>> I have successfully removed regular density pins from DB-25 connectors.
>> These darned high-density pins refuse to come loose.
>>
>> Before I make things worse, do you have any suggestions?
>>
>> -- Art Z.
>>
>> --
>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>>
>> /"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."/
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Removing Pins from High Density D-Sub Connector |
Art
Don=99t punish yourself because this is a real PIAxx task to achieve.
I have ruined several of those tools myself.
Never mind the plastic ones, they are useless!
Use the metal ones, and do it very patiently...
You have to involve the wire before inserting the tool to the pin, and then i
nsert it all the way down, very carefully.
Only pull the tool when you manage to insert it to reach the bottom of the h
ole.
In some cases, I even had to push the male pin from the other side of the Ds
ub connector.
Patience and mild perseverance are the secrets!
Cheers
Carlos
Enviado do meu iPhone
No dia 14/06/2018, =C3-s 15:42, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> escreveu:
> Folks,
>
> It's not my fault... I'm sure that the pins moved by themselves in the mid
dle of the night... but some of the pins in my high density D-Sub connector a
re in the wrong places.
>
> I have the right tool: https://www.steinair.com/product/insertionremoval-t
ool-for-high-density-d-sub-pins-mil-spec/
> I have successfully removed regular density pins from DB-25 connectors.
> These darned high-density pins refuse to come loose.
>
> Before I make things worse, do you have any suggestions?
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> "We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."
Message 13
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Subject: | Removing Pins from High Density D-Sub Connector |
I have found that the proper string of bad words is the only thing that
will get the tool to work correctly.
Turning the tool once it is fully inserted will only bend the tool. In
other wordsI think that inserting the tool into the connector
straight down and waiting for the satisfying click is the only way to
get it to workif the wire does not pull out do NOT turn the
tool in the bore as it will bend the tool causing more bad
wordsIf the wire does not pull out then pull the tool out and
then clock it 45 degrees and insert it again.
Magnifying headsets are a must for anyone over 12 years of age.
.
Thanks!!!
Bill Hunter
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Olson
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2018 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Removing Pins from High Density D-Sub
Connector
My advice is to buy multiples of the tool and in multiple versions. I
have metal and plastic versions and have about 3 of each because they
are so easy to wreck. The process works the same as standard pins and I
know of no trick other than to try the other version of tool.
Tim
On Jun 14, 2018, at 10:49 AM, Roger Curtis <rnjcurtis@charter.net
<mailto:rnjcurtis@charter.net> > wrote:
Art, I assume you are using the correct tool since the high-density and
regular D connector use different tools
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Art Zemon <art@zemon.name <mailto:art@zemon.name> >
<mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Removing Pins from High Density D-Sub
Connector
Folks,
It's not my fault... I'm sure that the pins moved by themselves in the
middle of the night... but some of the pins in my high density D-Sub
connector are in the wrong places.
I have the right tool:
https://www.steinair.com/product/insertionremoval-tool-for-high-density-d
-sub-pins-mil-spec/
I have successfully removed regular density pins from DB-25 connectors.
These darned high-density pins refuse to come loose.
Before I make things worse, do you have any suggestions?
-- Art Z.
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Removing Pins from High Density D-Sub Connector |
Correction: when I wrote (below) =9COnly pull the tool when you manage
to insert it to reach the bottom=9D, you shall read =9COnly pul
l the wire when you manage to insert the tool till it reaches the bottom
=9D
Carlos
Enviado do meu iPhone
No dia 14/06/2018, =C3-s 16:52, Carlos Trigo <trigo@mail.telepac.pt> escre
veu:
> Art
>
> Don=99t punish yourself because this is a real PIAxx task to achieve
.
> I have ruined several of those tools myself.
> Never mind the plastic ones, they are useless!
> Use the metal ones, and do it very patiently...
>
> You have to involve the wire before inserting the tool to the pin, and the
n insert it all the way down, very carefully.
> Only pull the tool when you manage to insert it to reach the bottom of the
hole.
>
> In some cases, I even had to push the male pin from the other side of the D
sub connector.
>
> Patience and mild perseverance are the secrets!
>
> Cheers
> Carlos
>
> Enviado do meu iPhone
>
> No dia 14/06/2018, =C3-s 15:42, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> escreveu:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> It's not my fault... I'm sure that the pins moved by themselves in the mi
ddle of the night... but some of the pins in my high density D-Sub connector
are in the wrong places.
>>
>> I have the right tool: https://www.steinair.com/product/insertionremoval-
tool-for-high-density-d-sub-pins-mil-spec/
>> I have successfully removed regular density pins from DB-25 connectors.
>> These darned high-density pins refuse to come loose.
>>
>> Before I make things worse, do you have any suggestions?
>>
>> -- Art Z.
>>
>> --
>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>>
>> "We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Removing Pins from High Density D-Sub Connector |
Push the tool over the pin.Push the pin into the tool from the backside of
the connector and hold it there.Push the tool over the pin again.Gently pul
l the wire.
If it doesn't come out, reseat the tool, then push the wire back in harder
while pushing the tool in harder.=C2- You have to get the pin to slide in
to the tool just a bit (and there is less than a bit of playroom to work wi
th.).
On Thursday, June 14, 2018 10:50 AM, Roger Curtis <rnjcurtis@charter.ne
t> wrote:
Art, I assume you are using the correct tool since the high-density and r
egular D connector use different tools
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Art Zemon <art@zemon.name>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Removing Pins from High Density D-Sub Connector
Folks,
It's not my fault... I'm sure that the pins moved by themselves in the midd
le of the night... but some of the pins in my high density D-Sub connector
are in the wrong places.
I have the right tool:=C2-https://www.steinair.com/product/insertionremov
al-tool-for-high-density-d-sub-pins-mil-spec/I have successfully removed re
gular density pins from DB-25 connectors.=C2-These darned high-density pi
ns refuse to come loose.
Before I make things worse, do you have any suggestions?
=C2- =C2- -- Art Z.
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: B&C switches |
Dave,
the MANL limiters came in and then I discovered
that the holder bases I had left over were mis-drilled
and should have been scrapped. Made some new
ones today. Your Care Package is in the mail
tomorrow.
Bob . . .
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