Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:50 AM - A36 standby battery and relay (Chris)
2. 10:38 AM - G36 standby battery and relay (Chris)
3. 10:44 AM - Re: Battery cables (Eric M. Jones)
4. 11:59 AM - Re: A36 standby battery and relay (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 12:03 PM - Re: Re: Battery cables (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 12:48 PM - Re: Re: Battery cables (Charlie England)
7. 12:54 PM - Re: A36 standby battery and relay (Chris)
8. 02:46 PM - Re: A36 standby battery and relay (FLYaDIVE)
9. 03:01 PM - Z-13/8 Failure Question (BMC_Dave)
10. 03:17 PM - Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question (Charlie England)
11. 03:32 PM - Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question (BMC_Dave)
12. 04:22 PM - Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question (user9253)
13. 04:35 PM - Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question (BMC_Dave)
14. 04:58 PM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question (Charlie England)
15. 05:03 PM - Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question (user9253)
16. 05:16 PM - Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question (user9253)
17. 05:19 PM - Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question (user9253)
18. 05:30 PM - Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question (BMC_Dave)
19. 05:46 PM - Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question (user9253)
20. 05:50 PM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question (Roger)
21. 06:02 PM - Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question (user9253)
22. 06:03 PM - Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question (BMC_Dave)
23. 09:32 PM - Re: Difference Between TNC Connectors (A R Goldman)
24. 10:19 PM - Re: Re: Sequence for bringing alternators on line. (Sebastien)
Message 1
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| Subject: | A36 standby battery and relay |
Bob/List
I am kind of on the sidelines of troubleshooting an A36 Bonanza with a G1000 system.
The plane has a B&C standby alternator and cross tie relay that functions
related to engine rpm, best I can tell. The alternator doesn't seem to be charging
the battery - found the crimp under the protective boot on the alternator
output to be quite loose such that the wire pulled right out. Fixed that and
still the G1000 goes dark once the main bus is turned off and the backup bus
(2nd battery) is on. It seems as though the standby battery relay is not working.
The standby battery is new reading 24 volts. Getting that reading required
great contortions under the passenger side of the panel. Its a concord battery
with a cannon plug connection. The main question is where physically is the
relay for this battery - no one seems to know, even the helper on the Beech service
line did not know. We would like to get to this relay and see if it is
the culprit causing the panel to go dark when main power is off.
Thanks
Chris Lucas
RV-10
Aircam
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| Subject: | G36 standby battery and relay |
Sorry its a 2007 G36.
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris <toaster73@embarqmail.com>
Sent: Fri, 06 Jul 2018 12:49:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: AeroElectric-List: A36 standby battery and relay
Bob/List
I am kind of on the sidelines of troubleshooting an A36 Bonanza with a G1000 system.
The plane has a B&C standby alternator and cross tie relay that functions
related to engine rpm, best I can tell. The alternator doesn't seem to be charging
the battery - found the crimp under the protective boot on the alternator
output to be quite loose such that the wire pulled right out. Fixed that and
still the G1000 goes dark once the main bus is turned off and the backup bus
(2nd battery) is on. It seems as though the standby battery relay is not working.
The standby battery is new reading 24 volts. Getting that reading required
great contortions under the passenger side of the panel. Its a concord battery
with a cannon plug connection. The main question is where physically is the
relay for this battery - no one seems to know, even the helper on the Beech service
line did not know. We would like to get to this relay and see if it is
the culprit causing the panel to go dark when main p!
ower is off.
Thanks
Chris Lucas
RV-10
Aircam
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| Subject: | Re: Battery cables |
Don't forget the Perihelion Design Copper-Clad Aluminum cables. They save 1/2 the
weight of a copper cable.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481440#481440
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/copper_cables_164.pdf
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| Subject: | Re: A36 standby battery and relay |
At 11:49 AM 7/6/2018, you wrote:
>
>Bob/List
>I am kind of on the sidelines of troubleshooting an A36 Bonanza with
>a G1000 system. The plane has a B&C standby alternator and cross tie
>relay that functions related to engine rpm, best I can tell. The
>alternator doesn't seem to be charging the battery - found the crimp
>under the protective boot on the alternator output to be quite loose
>such that the wire pulled right out. Fixed that and still the G1000
>goes dark once the main bus is turned off and the backup bus (2nd
>battery) is on. It seems as though the standby battery relay is not
>working. The standby battery is new reading 24 volts. Getting that
>reading required great contortions under the passenger side of the
>panel. Its a concord battery with a cannon plug connection. The main
>question is where physically is the relay for this battery - no one
>seems to know, even the helper on the Beech service line did not
>know. We would like to get to this relay and see if it is the
>culprit causing the panel to go dark when main power is off.
Do you have the Beech maintenance data on the airplane?
Those books pretty much show where everything is at and
includes wiring diagrams that show how its all wired
up. Have standby alternator operations been reviewed
per the POH? It's been ten years since I saw those
drawings and they are fuzzy at best and may even have
been modified. The way we USED to put them in, the
s/b alternator and battery were independent of each
other. The s/b alternator should be able to boost
the main bus with the main battery on whether or
not any auxiliary batteries were present.
If you don't have the books, you're looking for
a black cat in a coal mine at midnight.
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: Battery cables |
At 10:53 AM 7/4/2018, you wrote:
><Rocketman@etczone.com>
>
>Bob,
>
>That is exactly why I asked the question.
>
>It seems as if the HF dies are the WIRE size, not the
>wire+connector. This makes the dies FAR too small.
Yup . . . They've not fixed it and they've
had 10 years to do it!
>I have had good luck with the HF crimper on 8 and 4 AWG wire by
>using dies that are two sizes larger, i.e. us the #4 die on #8 wire
>and a #2 die on #4 wire. The crimps look as they should according
>to the Temco website. I did a pull test on one of the #4 cables...I
>clamped it in a vise an hung 270 lb from it with no movement...
I've got access to CNC production . . . I've
pondered the notion of offering properly sized
dies for that tool. The hydraulics seem to be
fine . . . only the die designers are suffering
a short between the headphones.
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: Battery cables |
On 7/6/2018 2:02 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 10:53 AM 7/4/2018, you wrote:
>> <Rocketman@etczone.com>
>>
>> Bob,
>>
>> That is exactly why I asked the question.
>>
>> It seems as if the HF dies are the WIRE size, not the
>> wire+connector. This makes the dies FAR too small.
>
> Yup . . . They've not fixed it and they've
> had 10 years to do it!
>
>> I have had good luck with the HF crimper on 8 and 4 AWG wire by using
>> dies that are two sizes larger, i.e. us the #4 die on #8 wire and a
>> #2 die on #4 wire. The crimps look as they should according to the
>> Temco website. I did a pull test on one of the #4 cables...I clamped
>> it in a vise an hung 270 lb from it with no movement...
>
> I've got access to CNC production . . . I've
> pondered the notion of offering properly sized
> dies for that tool. The hydraulics seem to be
> fine . . . only the die designers are suffering
> a short between the headphones.
>
> Bob . . .
>
The dies are stamped for metric wire sizes. I sent a message on 7-4-18
detailing it, with a link to metric>AWG conversions. Perhaps it didn't
make it through, but it's in the archives at:
http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=143869992?KEYS=battery_cables?LISTNAME=AeroElectric?HITNUMBER=2?SERIAL=12445510791?SHOWBUTTONS=YES
Charlie
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| Subject: | Re: A36 standby battery and relay |
Bob/List
I am kind of on the sidelines of troubleshooting an A36 Bonanza with a
G1000 system. The plane has a B&C standby alternator and cross tie
relay that functions related to engine rpm, best I can tell. The
alternator doesn't seem to be charging the battery - found the crimp
under the protective boot on the alternator output to be quite loose such
that the wire pulled right out. Fixed that and still the G1000 goes dark
once the main bus is turned off and the backup bus (2nd battery) is on.
It seems as though the standby battery relay is not working. The standby
battery is new reading 24 volts. Getting that reading required great
contortions under the passenger side of the panel. Its a concord battery
with a cannon plug connection. The main question is where physically is
the relay for this battery - no one seems to know, even the helper on the
Beech service line did not know. We would like to get to this relay and
see if it is the culprit causing the panel to go dark when main power is
off.
Do you have the Beech maintenance data on the airplane?
Those books pretty much show where everything is at and
includes wiring diagrams that show how its all wired
up. Have standby alternator operations been reviewed
per the POH? It's been ten years since I saw those
drawings and they are fuzzy at best and may even have
been modified. The way we USED to put them in, the
s/b alternator and battery were independent of each
other. The s/b alternator should be able to boost
the main bus with the main battery on whether or
not any auxiliary batteries were present.
If you don't have the books, you're looking for
a black cat in a coal mine at midnight.
Bob . . .They book part is being worked... more info to come...
-Chris
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| Subject: | Re: A36 standby battery and relay |
Chris:
Bypass the relay. Turn off the MAIN Master - Supply backup battery voltage
to the connection where the backup should be connecting to the G1000. If
all works than - Keep LQQKing at the backup battery relay. If it does not
work, start looking elsewhere.
Barry
On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 2:58 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 11:49 AM 7/6/2018, you wrote:
>
>
> Bob/List
> I am kind of on the sidelines of troubleshooting an A36 Bonanza with a
> G1000 system. The plane has a B&C standby alternator and cross tie relay
> that functions related to engine rpm, best I can tell. The alternator
> doesn't seem to be charging the battery - found the crimp under the
> protective boot on the alternator output to be quite loose such that the
> wire pulled right out. Fixed that and still the G1000 goes dark once the
> main bus is turned off and the backup bus (2nd battery) is on. It seems as
> though the standby battery relay is not working. The standby battery is new
> reading 24 volts. Getting that reading required great contortions under the
> passenger side of the panel. Its a concord battery with a cannon plug
> connection. The main question is where physically is the relay for this
> battery - no one seems to know, even the helper on the Beech service line
> did not know. We would like to get to this relay and see if it is the
> culprit causing the panel to go dark when main power is off.
>
>
> Do you have the Beech maintenance data on the airplane?
> Those books pretty much show where everything is at and
> includes wiring diagrams that show how its all wired
> up. Have standby alternator operations been reviewed
> per the POH? It's been ten years since I saw those
> drawings and they are fuzzy at best and may even have
> been modified. The way we USED to put them in, the
> s/b alternator and battery were independent of each
> other. The s/b alternator should be able to boost
> the main bus with the main battery on whether or
> not any auxiliary batteries were present.
>
> If you don't have the books, you're looking for
> a black cat in a coal mine at midnight.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
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| Subject: | Z-13/8 Failure Question |
Been pouring through the forums recently, lots of great info and I've been able
to answer most of my own questions so far. I'm curious about a particular failure
since I'm designing for a SDS EI/EFI plane, perhaps I don't fully understand
how the LR-3 module works.
In Z-13/8 if the battery contactor fails, exceedingly rare and probably with some
warning prior to being critical, is there any notification that such a failure
has occurred? Any indication the battery has been disconnected from the main
ALT?
I'll be switching the ECU and injectors off the main battery bus. So if what I'm
thinking is true I won't get any indication I'm running the engine only off
battery power until it stops. An unappealing prospect...
Also, looking at the reference figures online are these Z-figures the most recent?
I ask because it seems the wiring for the main ALT in Z-13 doesn't include
the LR-3 module, I have to look at Z-12 for that. Not hard to modify for the
combined module, just wondering if there is a Z-13 version out there that includes
this. Thanks!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481447#481447
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question |
On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 5:01 PM, BMC_Dave <bmcdave85@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Been pouring through the forums recently, lots of great info and I've been
> able to answer most of my own questions so far. I'm curious about a
> particular failure since I'm designing for a SDS EI/EFI plane, perhaps I
> don't fully understand how the LR-3 module works.
>
> In Z-13/8 if the battery contactor fails, exceedingly rare and probably
> with some warning prior to being critical, is there any notification that
> such a failure has occurred? Any indication the battery has been
> disconnected from the main ALT?
>
> I'll be switching the ECU and injectors off the main battery bus. So if
> what I'm thinking is true I won't get any indication I'm running the engine
> only off battery power until it stops. An unappealing prospect...
>
> Also, looking at the reference figures online are these Z-figures the most
> recent? I ask because it seems the wiring for the main ALT in Z-13 doesn't
> include the LR-3 module, I have to look at Z-12 for that. Not hard to
> modify for the combined module, just wondering if there is a Z-13 version
> out there that includes this. Thanks!
>
>
> z-13 is 'on a budget'. the Ford regulator is tens of dollars instead of
hundreds of dollars. :-) If you're going to use the LR-3, then just draw
it and its accessories in place of the Ford regulator. If you're keeping
the Ford regulator, just add an inexpensive low voltage detector/indicator
to the battery bus. Or, if you have an EFIS and/or engine monitor, it
should be able to announce undervoltage due to loss of alternator power
(which is the actual concern, right?).
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question |
ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:
> z-13 is 'on a budget'. the Ford regulator is tens of dollars instead of hundreds
of dollars. :-) If you're going to use the LR-3, then just draw it and its
accessories in place of the Ford regulator. If you're keeping the Ford regulator,
just add an inexpensive low voltage detector/indicator to the battery bus.
Or, if you have an EFIS and/or engine monitor, it should be able to announce
undervoltage due to loss of alternator power (which is the actual concern, right?).
Ah, I get the schematic now. Though the B&C website "All Electric On A Budget"
includes the LR-3... and a 60A main ALT.
Yeah I'll have dual EFIS/MFDs but they'll be off the e-buss, well one will at least,
and would be seeing the ALT voltage from there with the BAT contact open.
I assume from their perspective nothing would change when the BAT is disconnected,
though I'm likely misunderstanding.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481449#481449
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question |
Many, if not most, alternators will keep working if the battery is disconnected.
Electrical loads draw their current from the source with the highest voltage.
Since the alternator puts out a higher voltage than the battery does, everything
including the alternator field is powered by the alternator. If the battery
is disconnected, then its stabilizing affect is lost. The voltage from
the alternator might vary about plus or minus a volt. A symptom of battery contactor
failure could be unstable voltage. If the E-Bus switch is normally turned
on, then another symptom of contactor failure is a drop in voltage between
0.5 and 1 volt (across the diode).
If the E-Bus is still connected to the battery, then its voltage might remain
stable. But the voltage on the main power bus could be unstable with the battery
disconnected.
Battery contactors do not fail very often.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481450#481450
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question |
user9253 wrote:
> Many, if not most, alternators will keep working if the battery is disconnected.
Electrical loads draw their current from the source with the highest voltage.
Since the alternator puts out a higher voltage than the battery does, everything
including the alternator field is powered by the alternator. If the
battery is disconnected, then its stabilizing affect is lost. The voltage from
the alternator might vary about plus or minus a volt. A symptom of battery
contactor failure could be unstable voltage. If the E-Bus switch is normally
turned on, then another symptom of contactor failure is a drop in voltage between
0.5 and 1 volt (across the diode).
> If the E-Bus is still connected to the battery, then its voltage might remain
stable. But the voltage on the main power bus could be unstable with the battery
disconnected.
> Battery contactors do not fail very often.
This is all consistent with my assumptions. So indeed it is possible to have the
battery contactor fail, have nothing on the e-buss or main buss side notice,
and keep chugging along until your engine suddenly quits (because your entire
ignition and fuel delivery system is dependent on the battery buss). Is this
correct?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481452#481452
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question |
On 7/6/2018 6:35 PM, BMC_Dave wrote:
>
>
> user9253 wrote:
>> Many, if not most, alternators will keep working if the battery is disconnected.
Electrical loads draw their current from the source with the highest voltage.
Since the alternator puts out a higher voltage than the battery does, everything
including the alternator field is powered by the alternator. If the
battery is disconnected, then its stabilizing affect is lost. The voltage from
the alternator might vary about plus or minus a volt. A symptom of battery
contactor failure could be unstable voltage. If the E-Bus switch is normally
turned on, then another symptom of contactor failure is a drop in voltage between
0.5 and 1 volt (across the diode).
>> If the E-Bus is still connected to the battery, then its voltage might remain
stable. But the voltage on the main power bus could be unstable with the
battery disconnected.
>> Battery contactors do not fail very often.
>
> This is all consistent with my assumptions. So indeed it is possible to have
the battery contactor fail, have nothing on the e-buss or main buss side notice,
and keep chugging along until your engine suddenly quits (because your entire
ignition and fuel delivery system is dependent on the battery buss). Is this
correct?
If you don't have anything on the battery bus that will detect loss of
alternator power, then just add low voltage detection to the battery
bus. Having said that, I believe that Ross has said SDS' new system,
still in development, will have low voltage annunciation and auto
switching to a backup battery. Have you asked about that feature?
Charlie
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question |
Not necessarily. Since you have two EFISs, monitor the E-Bus voltage with one
and the main bus with the other. If the voltage drops by even 1/2 volt, then
land. Lithium batteries are different than lead acid. Lithium batteries maintain
their voltage until almost dead. If the engine is electrically dependent,
then any abnormal voltage should be reason to land and troubleshoot on the ground.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481454#481454
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question |
If you want to back up the battery contactor, the attached drawing is one way.
The small relay is disabled during engine cranking to prevent overloading its contacts.
I am not necessarily recommending this circuit, just offering it as an option.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481455#481455
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/contactor_bypass_502.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question |
My 6-year-old Odyssey failed open while flying. The result was the same as if
the battery contactor failed.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481456#481456
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question |
Definitely not looking to add another contactor. I suppose you could set up the
efis to monitor engine bus, but why not just hook the LR-3 to it instead? Then
instead of just telling us the alternator is working it also tells us if it's
charging the battery. Reduced part counts is always nice too...
That would render any low voltage warnings from SDS unnecessary.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481457#481457
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question |
There was a recent discussion on VansAirforce about electrical architecture for
EFI with lots of opinions and suggestions.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=151435
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481458#481458
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question |
My 6-year-old Odyssey failed open while flying. The result was the same as
if the battery contactor failed.
--------
Joe Gores
I believe that it would not be quite the same thing. If you have an elect
rically dependent engine, in your case, the alternator power would back fee
d through the contactor to the battery bus and keep the engine running as l
ong as you didn=99t try to draw more current than the alternator can
supply.
Roger
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question |
Right you are Roger. Luckily my Rotax 912ULS engine has its own independent ignition
system and engine driven fuel pump.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481460#481460
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question |
user9253 wrote:
> There was a recent discussion on VansAirforce about electrical architecture for
EFI with lots of opinions and suggestions.
> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=151435
I appreciate that. I am still interested in the answer to my question about this
specific architecture though.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481461#481461
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Difference Between TNC Connectors |
Not so sure that i would agree
The main difference between the B and the T is that the Bnc is a Bayonet typ
e connection and the Tnc is a Threaded connection. Although both can probabl
y be gotten in a weather proof variety this is not the major characteristic o
f either
Both are available in crimp on
Rich
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 5, 2018, at 9:50 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Art:
>
> By design a TNC is weather sealed.
> BUT! TNC was NOT designed with a Crimp.
> They are SOLDER type.
> I HATE crimp type. Too many problems and sharp edges.
> And, why would you go to ACS for a standard off the shelf electronic item?
>
>
> Barry
>
>> On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 7:32 PM, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>> Folks,
>>
>> I just discovered that Aircraft Spruce has much less expensive TNC connec
tors than I had previously purchased... and I need to buy one more so I want
to know if I can use the cheap one. Are these equivalent, other than one be
ing weather sealed?
>>
>> cheap: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/amphenol11-15370.php
>>
>> expensive: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/edmo2255556.php
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -- Art Z.
>>
>> --
>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>>
>> "We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."
>
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| Subject: | Re: Sequence for bringing alternators on line. |
I was out at the aircraft today programming checklists and limits, had the
alternator switch in the main position with the engine not running and
noticed a 7 amp draw which seemed excessive for what was on. Turned the
alternator switch to off and the draw went to 3 amps. Put my hand on the
alternator and it was hot to the touch. Alternator is a Lamar with internal
regulator. Is it normal for a non-turning alternator to be drawing 4 amps?
If so then I think we'll leave it off until after start and turn it off
before shutdown.
On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 1:10 PM, Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com> wrote:
> The starter contactor is a B&C S702 and SD-8 relay is included in the PMOV
> kit so I think the diode is built in as well.
>
> The E-123 relay is not necessary in the current setup but this system was
> originally designed for P-Mags and the start switch was going to be an
> S2000 button. I'm guessing that the S2000 needed the relay and when it was
> replaced with an ACS switch the relay was left in for later conversion.
>
> Thank you all for the replies, I'll just leave the alternator switch on
> Main all the time since there's no advantage to turning it off for engine
> start. Once the aircraft is through its test phase we plan on testing the
> SD-8 on an every 4 months schedule.
>
> On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 6:22 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 09:07 PM 6/12/2018, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> The two relays and starter contactor should all have diodes just like the
>> battery contactor does. Connect banded end of diodes to positive.
>> Can the start switch handle the start contactor coil current? Or is
>> the E-123 Relay necessary?
>>
>>
>> The ACS/Bendix/Gerdes key switch will handle
>> the automotive starter contacter that's fitted
>> with a supression diode. Many (like the B&C
>> S702) have the diode built in. If in doubt,
>> install a second one . . . two are better
>> than none. The buffer relay is not necessary
>> but doesn't hurt anything . . . if left in
>> add the diode to it too as Joe suggests.
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
>
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