AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Mon 07/16/18


Total Messages Posted: 16



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 08:46 AM - Question for Bob (Rocketman1988)
     2. 10:51 AM - Re: Question for Bob (Bill Watson)
     3. 11:00 AM - Re: Question for Bob (Rocketman1988)
     4. 11:59 AM - Re: Question for Bob (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     5. 01:15 PM - Re: Question for Bob (Rocketman1988)
     6. 01:30 PM - Re: Re: Question for Bob (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     7. 03:22 PM - Re: Question for Bob (Rocketman1988)
     8. 03:52 PM - Re: Re: Question for Bob (Charlie England)
     9. 04:22 PM - Re: Re: Question for Bob (Kelly McMullen)
    10. 04:53 PM - Re: Question for Bob (Rocketman1988)
    11. 06:55 PM - Re: B&C switches (blues750)
    12. 06:57 PM - Re: Question for Bob (user9253)
    13. 07:00 PM - Re: Re: Question for Bob (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    14. 07:26 PM - Fw: Re: Re: Question for Bob (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    15. 07:44 PM - Re: Alternator Noise When Touching Metal Airframe Grounds (Jared Yates)
    16. 08:07 PM - Re: Re: B&C switches (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 08:46:00 AM PST US
    Subject: Question for Bob
    From: "Rocketman1988" <Rocketman@etczone.com>
    Bob I am using the Z-14 for a template. I have looked at the sketch of the aft mounted batteries, as I am building an RV-10 with an electrically dependent engine. I would like to have the Main and Aux Battery busses located forward instead of aft. My thought would be to run two large cables from the aft batteries to the forward busses, and small, short wires to the loads. The sketch you made would require many long small wires and two short large wires. As an aside, the c/b s would then be located aft, as well. My question is, would running two large cables forward be viable? If so, what AWG wire would you recommend? #8, #6, #4 ? The loads should not exceed 25 -30 A. Thanks. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481658#481658


    Message 2


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    Time: 10:51:37 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Question for Bob
    From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com>
    I think you'll find most other Z-14 10's configured the way you are describing. Mine certainly is. On 7/16/2018 11:45 AM, Rocketman1988 wrote: > > Bob > > I am using the Z-14 for a template. > > I have looked at the sketch of the aft mounted batteries, as I am building an RV-10 with an electrically dependent engine. > > I would like to have the Main and Aux Battery busses located forward instead of aft. My thought would be to run two large cables from the aft batteries to the forward busses, and small, short wires to the loads. The sketch you made would require many long small wires and two short large wires. As an aside, the c/b s would then be located aft, as well. > > My question is, would running two large cables forward be viable? > > If so, what AWG wire would you recommend? #8, #6, #4 ? The loads should not exceed 25 -30 A. > > Thanks. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481658#481658 > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus


    Message 3


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    Time: 11:00:44 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Question for Bob
    From: "Rocketman1988" <Rocketman@etczone.com>
    So what size wire did you run from the aft battery to the forward buss? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481660#481660


    Message 4


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    Time: 11:59:07 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Question for Bob
    Bob I am using the Z-14 for a template. I have looked at the sketch of the aft mounted batteries, as I am building an RV-10 with an electrically dependent engine. I would like to have the Main and Aux Battery busses located forward instead of aft. My thought would be to run two large cables from the aft batteries to the forward busses, and small, short wires to the loads. A 'battery bus' is an always hot structure mounted close to a battery that drives feeders protected by (1) crash-friendly fuses (7A) or breakers (5A) -OR- (2) crew-controlled feeders with added relays/ contactors when 5-7A robustness is insufficient. Once separated from the battery, it's some other kind of bus . . . you pick the name. Legacy design philosophy calls for a mini-contactor or relay to manage the feeder to that bus. This drives reliability of that bus down when the contactor is added. Not recommended for powering accessories that benefit by getting power from a REAL battery bus. The sketch you made would require many long small wires and two short large wires. How many is 'many'? What are the anticipated feeders? What do they power and what are their protection levels? As an aside, the c/b s would then be located aft, as well. Yup, that's how battery busses are . . . on every airplane I've worked with . . . My question is, would running two large cables forward be viable? If so, what AWG wire would you recommend? #8, #6, #4 ? The loads should not exceed 25 -30 A. This is a departure from legacy design philosophies which begs validation with new FMEAs . . . the results of which may not be attractive. Bob . . .


    Message 5


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    Time: 01:15:02 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Question for Bob
    From: "Rocketman1988" <Rocketman@etczone.com>
    Bob Thanks for the insight. I am using electronic fuel injection and ignition. So the coil packs, a fuel pump p, and an ECU need to be on a buss powered by both batteries...and the c/b s need to be accessible, i.e. not aft of the baggage compartment. It appears that I will need to accept the two additional contactors to feed the forward busses, as the required power will exceed 10 amps... Would you recommend a continuous duty contactor or a relay between the battery and the load? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481667#481667


    Message 6


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    Time: 01:30:51 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Question for Bob
    At 03:14 PM 7/16/2018, you wrote: ><Rocketman@etczone.com> > >Bob > >Thanks for the insight. > >I am using electronic fuel injection and ignition. So the coil >packs, a fuel pump p, and an ECU need to be on a buss powered by >both batteries...and the c/b s need to be accessible, i.e. not aft >of the baggage compartment. > >It appears that I will need to accept the two additional >contactors to feed the forward busses, as the required power will >exceed 10 amps... > >Would you recommend a continuous duty contactor or a relay between >the battery and the load? > > Can you post a sketch of the proposed constellation of feeders? Bob . . .


    Message 7


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    Time: 03:22:13 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Question for Bob
    From: "Rocketman1988" <Rocketman@etczone.com>
    Bob This is just a simple drawing with reference to the Z-14. The feeders to the "hot" busses are the ones in question. In the RV-10, the 3 contactors are located in the aft fuselage, while I would like the busses to be located forward, with c/b s accessible from the control seat. Those two wires would each be around 10 feet long... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481674#481674 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_electrical_v10_182.jpg


    Message 8


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    Time: 03:52:06 PM PST US
    From: Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Question for Bob
    Just a heads-up, your diode symbols are for zener diodes. I doubt that's what you intend to use, and it could confuse an avionics tech in the future. On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 5:21 PM, Rocketman1988 <Rocketman@etczone.com> wrote: > Rocketman@etczone.com> > > Bob > > This is just a simple drawing with reference to the Z-14. > > The feeders to the "hot" busses are the ones in question. In the RV-10, > the 3 contactors are located in the aft fuselage, while I would like the > busses to be located forward, with c/b s accessible from the control seat. > > Those two wires would each be around 10 feet long... > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481674#481674 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_electrical_v10_182.jpg > > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>


    Message 9


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    Time: 04:22:29 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Question for Bob
    From: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
    As the builder of a -10, with good old 1960 mags and electrical layout, I can tell you that you really don't want more battery behind the baggage compartment than necessary. You either have a PITA panel to remove, or you have to modify the panel to make an access door...and most information indicates that panel is structural, so you have to use some care in modifying it. If you have a battery of suitable weight in the rear to match the original plans, then you could put something light weight like an EarthX up on the firewall. It would save you a lot of heavy duty cabling. On 7/16/2018 3:21 PM, Rocketman1988 wrote: > > Bob > > This is just a simple drawing with reference to the Z-14. > > The feeders to the "hot" busses are the ones in question. In the RV-10, the 3 contactors are located in the aft fuselage, while I would like the busses to be located forward, with c/b s accessible from the control seat. > > Those two wires would each be around 10 feet long... > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481674#481674 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_electrical_v10_182.jpg > > > > > >


    Message 10


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    Time: 04:53:27 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Question for Bob
    From: "Rocketman1988" <Rocketman@etczone.com>
    Sorry about the Zener symbol. The diagram was just sketched out give me something to look at...I never intended on posting it but I did so, as Bob asked... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481678#481678


    Message 11


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    Time: 06:55:33 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: B&C switches
    From: "blues750" <den_beaulieu@yahoo.com>
    Thanks Bob, I get nervous when you get "mystified"... my setup is a dual battery, with single PMA alternator The alternator runs thru a 40A ANL then to a common terminal with Batt #1 to the Main bus relay, and the #2 battery runs to the Essential (endurance) bus relay. The EarthX batteries have onboard battery management (BMS) for battery "issues", and I have the B&C OVP module for the alternator, along with cockpit disconnect switch. I went with the EFII Bus Manager as a way to help with my system wiring during my design phase. Pros and Cons are always ready to be heard by me...only way I can consider improvements for the next time or as needed. I did go ahead and start wiring for the hydraulic pump with items from the "care" package you sent. Decided to tap power directly from the #1 battery, thru the MANL to the relays which are all located on the engine firewall forward. About a 8" run from the positive terminal to the MANL, and 6" run to the relays, and plenty of convenient grounding tabs! I've attached a pic for comments. Thanks for everyone's interest and insight...very much appreciated! Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481680#481680 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/manl_and_relays_180.jpg


    Message 12


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    Time: 06:57:44 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Question for Bob
    From: "user9253" <fransew@gmail.com>
    The alternator fuses should be physically located at the other end of the "B" leads near the battery contactors. The fuses protect the batteries. The alternator is self current limiting. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481681#481681


    Message 13


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    Time: 07:00:29 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Question for Bob
    At 05:21 PM 7/16/2018, you wrote: ><Rocketman@etczone.com> > >Bob > >This is just a simple drawing with reference to the Z-14. > >The feeders to the "hot" busses are the ones in question. In the >RV-10, the 3 contactors are located in the aft fuselage, while I >would like the busses to be located forward, with c/b s accessible >from the control seat. > >Those two wires would each be around 10 feet long... No, I need to see a schematic of your bus structure and a description of what wires take power from each bus to its respective load. This is the information necessary to do FMEA. Words may occasionally suffice but a schematic is the universal language that offers clarity above all words. Bob . . .


    Message 14


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    Time: 07:26:09 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Question for Bob
    >Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 20:59:53 -0500 >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Question for Bob > >At 05:21 PM 7/16/2018, you wrote: >><Rocketman@etczone.com> >> >>Bob >> >>This is just a simple drawing with reference to the Z-14. Okay, I'm getting your thread confused with the project using the EFII 'bus controller' . . . let me back up. >>The feeders to the "hot" busses are the ones in question. In the >>RV-10, the 3 contactors are located in the aft fuselage, while I >>would like the busses to be located forward, with c/b s accessible >>from the control seat. >> >>Those two wires would each be around 10 feet long... Yes, so now we need to consider the effects of a failure of one of those relays. Normally, we would like to have redundant systems that do not depend on both used-to-be-a-battery bus powered up. A battery bus is generally the most reliable source in the airplane . . . nothing between it and the battery. Now we've got a piece of hardware there that capable of killing the whole bus. The consequences of that are best deduced before first flight . . . not after. Bob . . .


    Message 15


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    Time: 07:44:49 PM PST US
    From: Jared Yates <email@jaredyates.com>
    Subject: Re: Alternator Noise When Touching Metal Airframe Grounds
    I got to spend more time today on the audio problem. I replaced the alternator, because I had a spare hanging around, and because it seemed like the old one wasn't working as well. Before the swap, at idle RPM I would see something like 25 amps as it recharged the battery. Now I'm seeing 45 at the same RPM. Once the battery was topped up after the cranking and the alternator was back into its 10A range, the noise is gone. So it seems that I was only getting the noise when the alternator was working hard, but because the old alternator was always working hard, I was always getting the noise. I'd still love to figure out how to fix the audio system so that it would not be victimized, but at least for now it seems like the antagonist is fixed. On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 2:03 PM, Jared Yates <email@jaredyates.com> wrote: > I've confirmed that the noise is present regardless of whether the ANR is > on or off. I have not yet been able to round up a plain headset to try. My > troubleshooting is a little slow at the moment because I'm only getting to > the airplane once a week. If there is a floating ground somewhere in the > audio system, are there any hints about where I might try looking for it? > > I have another alternator to try, and hope to have time to do that on > Friday. > > On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 2:27 PM, Roger <rnjcurtis@charter.net> wrote: > >> Is the noise still present when the ANR is turned off? >> >> >> >> Roger >> >> >> >> At 09:36 AM 6/19/2018, you wrote: >> >> Good suggestion, thanks. So far all 4 lemo sets are the same. I have a >> dual plug version of the same bose to try, and can do that and report back >> >> >> Hmmmm . . . not sure I've got an accurate image >> of the differences between 'lemo' and 'dual plug'. >> Does this described the connectors at the end >> of the headset cord . . . single mulit-pin as opposed >> to "Y" plugs? >> >> To be significant, the test headset needs to >> be a generic, non-electronic . . . but go >> ahead and try the dual-plug Bose X too. >> >> >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >> > >


    Message 16


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    Time: 08:07:49 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: B&C switches
    At 08:54 PM 7/16/2018, you wrote: > >Thanks Bob, I get nervous when you get "mystified"... my setup is >a dual battery, with single PMA alternator The alternator runs thru >a 40A ANL then to a common terminal with Batt #1 to the Main bus >relay, and the #2 battery runs to the Essential (endurance) bus >relay. The EarthX batteries have onboard battery management (BMS) >for battery "issues", and I have the B&C OVP module for the >alternator, along with cockpit disconnect switch. I went with the >EFII Bus Manager as a way to help with my system wiring during my >design phase. Pros and Cons are always ready to be heard by >me...only way I can consider improvements for the next time or as >needed. I did go ahead and start wiring for the hydraulic pump with >items from the "care" package you sent. Decided to tap power >directly from the #1 battery, thru the MANL to the relays which are >all located on the engine firewall forward. About a 8" run from the >positive terminal to the MANL, and 6" run to the relays, and plenty >of convenient grounding tabs! I've attached a pic for >comments. Thanks for everyone's interest and insight...very much >appreciated! Dave I understand . . . and no doubt the EFII gizmo performs as advertised. But you've already experienced a design conundrum with where to tie your hydraulic pump feeder to the system. Products like the ECII, EXP-Bus, etc all perform as advertised in the designer's airplane and probably most of his/her customers. But the problem you're wrestling wasn't conceived by the designer of the whiz-bang-box . . . further, the design chooses to march to the beat of a different drum when it comes to FMEA and legacy design goals for aircraft. This is why there are so many variations on a theme in the z-figures. For TC single engine aircraft, the wirebook for a C150 wasn't materially different than for a C210. Even today, that line of aircraft use a lot of common hardware. Cessna has their own whiz-bang box Emacs! Even includes the ground power connector! The difference between this whiz-bang-box and the EFII is that the box was designed to condense about 80 years of lessons learned into a labor saving product that didn't introduce new risks or radically modify normal and abnormal operating instructions. One would hope that producers of EXB-Bus, EFII et. als. had some philosophy founded in good FMEA outcomes while maximizing flexibility of application for the greatest number of builders. Sadly, I'm seeing little, if any, consideration for such matters in these products. This is why I am reluctant to suggest work-arounds for problem like yours. Offering a personal band-aid on a poorly designed accessory might easily be mis-interpreted as some kind of agreement with the design of the product. Suffice it to say that there are good reasons why I would not be able to qualify those products onto a TC aircraft under the rules in place when I was last involved in such things. Having said all that, I'll suggest you locate your MANL as close as practical to the EFII battery(+) terminal and tie it in there. This will FUNCTION but it's a really scuzzy band-aid. Bob . . .




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