Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:01 AM - Re: IMPORTANCE OF ESSAY WRITING (Hannono94)
2. 07:29 AM - Melted battery terminal (Art Zemon)
3. 08:09 AM - Re: Melted battery terminal (Sebastien)
4. 08:11 AM - Re: Melted battery terminal (Art Zemon)
5. 08:37 AM - Re: Melted battery terminal (Ernest Christley)
6. 08:41 AM - Re: Melted battery terminal (argoldman@aol.com)
7. 09:00 AM - Re: Melted battery terminal (Art Zemon)
8. 09:06 AM - Re: Melted battery terminal (Charlie England)
9. 09:25 AM - Re: Melted battery terminal (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 09:56 AM - Re: Melted battery terminal (FLYaDIVE)
11. 10:59 AM - Re: Melted battery terminal (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 11:04 AM - Re: Melted battery terminal (Charlie England)
13. 11:07 AM - Re: Re: Question for Bob (Bill Watson)
14. 12:14 PM - Re: Re: Question for Bob (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 01:35 PM - Re: Melted battery terminal (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 03:18 PM - Re: Melted battery terminal (Charlie England)
17. 05:00 PM - Re: Melted battery terminal (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: IMPORTANCE OF ESSAY WRITING |
True! It is that essay writing plays an important part in our academic year. It
is also a part of my LSAT Prep (https://testmaxprep.com/lsat/) and I have been
looking for such service for a very long time now. I am not very good at writing
essays and therefore, a lot of my assignments are also pending. Thanks for
sharing this link, it is going to be very much useful to me.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481839#481839
Message 2
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| Subject: | Melted battery terminal |
Question for y'all. This happened at AirVenture (not my plane, thankfully).
The cable from the battery positive terminal to the current limiter got
loose at the current limiter end. Just loose, it did not come off. The
pilot kept cranking on the starter until he heard a pop. The negative
terminal on the battery has melted. See photo.
I don't understand why this is the party that got hot, since this connector
was tight. And why there is no other visible damage to the battery out
anything else, not even the current limiter.
-- Art Z.
Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
How do you know the connection was tight?
On Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 10:38 Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
> Question for y'all. This happened at AirVenture (not my plane,
> thankfully). The cable from the battery positive terminal to the current
> limiter got loose at the current limiter end. Just loose, it did not come
> off. The pilot kept cranking on the starter until he heard a pop. The
> negative terminal on the battery has melted. See photo.
>
> I don't understand why this is the party that got hot, since this
> connector was tight. And why there is no other visible damage to the
> battery out anything else, not even the current limiter.
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
Correction. The plane has a shunt, not a current limiter.
-- Art Z.
Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
On Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 10:08 AM Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
> Question for y'all. This happened at AirVenture (not my plane,
> thankfully). The cable from the battery positive terminal to the current
> limiter got loose at the current limiter end. Just loose, it did not come
> off. The pilot kept cranking on the starter until he heard a pop. The
> negative terminal on the battery has melted. See photo.
>
> I don't understand why this is the party that got hot, since this
> connector was tight. And why there is no other visible damage to the
> battery out anything else, not even the current limiter.
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
Looks like a lead post.=C2- Lead has a fairly low melting point.=C2- Ma
ybe the wire was heated from the other end enough to soften the battery pos
t material.=C2- Once soft, the connection was degraded, leading to a high
resistance connection. Leading to ... goo running down the side of the bat
tery?
On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 10:31 AM, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
Question for y'all. This happened at AirVenture (not my plane, thankfully)
. The cable from the battery positive terminal to the current limiter got l
oose at the current limiter end. Just loose, it did not come off. The pilot
kept cranking on the starter until he heard a pop. The negative terminal o
n the battery has melted. See photo.
I don't understand why this is the party that got hot, since this connector
was tight. And why there is no other visible damage to the battery out any
thing else, not even the current limiter.
=C2-=C2-=C2- -- Art Z.
Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
Lessee, a loose connection (no matter where it is from or to) is potentiall
y a high resistance connection. With the tremendous power draw of the start
er motor it is likely that that was the source of the heat and meltage.
=C2-
Rich
=C2-
In a message dated 7/25/2018 10:11:48 AM Central Standard Time, art@zemon.n
ame writes:
=C2-
Correction. The plane has a shunt, not a current limiter.
=C2-=C2-=C2- -- Art Z.
Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
On Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 10:08 AM Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
Question for y'all. This happened at AirVenture (not my plane, thankfully).
The cable from the battery positive terminal to the current limiter got lo
ose at the current limiter end. Just loose, it did not come off. The pilot
kept cranking on the starter until he heard a pop. The negative terminal on
the battery has melted. See photo.
=C2-
I don't understand why this is the party that got hot, since this connector
was tight. And why there is no other visible damage to the battery out any
thing else, not even the current limiter.
=C2-=C2-=C2- -- Art Z.
Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
Because it still is, after the battery terminal melted and the bolt fell
off. The lock nut is now soldered in it's compressed state between the bolt
head and the washer.
-- Art Z.
Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
On Jul 25, 2018 10:30 AM, "Sebastien" <cluros@gmail.com> wrote:
How do you know the connection was tight?
On Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 10:38 Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
> Question for y'all. This happened at AirVenture (not my plane,
> thankfully). The cable from the battery positive terminal to the current
> limiter got loose at the current limiter end. Just loose, it did not come
> off. The pilot kept cranking on the starter until he heard a pop. The
> negative terminal on the battery has melted. See photo.
>
> I don't understand why this is the party that got hot, since this
> connector was tight. And why there is no other visible damage to the
> battery out anything else, not even the current limiter.
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 9:28 AM, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
> Question for y'all. This happened at AirVenture (not my plane,
> thankfully). The cable from the battery positive terminal to the current
> limiter got loose at the current limiter end. Just loose, it did not come
> off. The pilot kept cranking on the starter until he heard a pop. The
> negative terminal on the battery has melted. See photo.
>
> I don't understand why this is the party that got hot, since this
> connector was tight. And why there is no other visible damage to the
> battery out anything else, not even the current limiter.
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
>
If I had to speculate, I'd be looking at the battery type, in addition to
the question of whether there really was a clean gas tight connection on
the posts. If you look up the specs on that battery, I'll bet you'll find
it was intended for service in UPS, powered wheel chair, etc. You can get
away with using 'universal' batteries for starting; I've used the SLA
universals as starting batteries for a couple of decades. But the terminals
are typically a lot smaller than a true starting battery. Even if the
terminals were clean/tight, I wonder if a drastically extended cranking
session could drive heat up enough to melt the terminals, which are likely
sized for, let's say, 20 amps continuous, instead of 200+.
Charlie
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
At 09:28 AM 7/25/2018, you wrote:
>Question for y'all. This happened at AirVenture (not my plane,
>thankfully). The cable from the battery positive terminal to the
>current limiter got loose at the current limiter end. Just loose, it
>did not come off. The pilot kept cranking on the starter until he
>heard a pop. The negative terminal on the battery has melted. See photo.
>
>I don't understand why this is the party that got hot, since this
>connector was tight. And why there is no other visible damage to the
>battery out anything else, not even the current limiter.
Was the current limiter in series with starter
current . . .? If the 'loose' terminal was not
visibly damaged due to electrically induced
heating/arcing, then it did not participate
in this failure.
How did the battery wire terminal look after the 'meltdown'?
Lead has right at 10x the d.c. resistance of copper.
Not sure what comparative gradients for reduction
in compression strength vs. temperature would be
but you can bet that lead is MUCH steeper than copper.
This sorta sets up a weak-link for the low resistance,
high current batteries. An extended cranking scenario
will absolutely warm up these terminals. Joint integrity
falls with temperature rise and the trajectory to destruction
steepens exponentially.
Some suppliers of SVLA products will include a lead
battery bolt kit that includes a Bellville washer
to be used in the joint makeup that provides (1) an
indication as to when design compression in the joint
has been reached and (2) improve retention of joint
quality for small rises in temperature.
Emacs!
Pretty sure this is why Odyssey and similar products
use a lot of brass in their terminal posts
Emacs!
Emacs!
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
Art:
The current limit circuit has nothing to do with it.
The cable should be going from the battery to the starter relay to the
starter.
There are hundreds of amps being sucked out of the battery.
Nothing should be limiting the current flow.
The crank, cranking the engine probably did so WAY TOO LONG!
Many starters stipulate 10 seconds. Well, that is too long! It should be
more like 5 seconds.
The only thing indicating the positive terminal was maybe tight is - It did
not melt.
It does not matter which terminal is loose, positive or negative,
resistance is resistance. And you now have proof of what a poor connection
can do.
Also you do not know if the positive terminal was a CLEAN connection or how
tight. One ohm of resistance under a terminal increases current drawing a
12 VDC circuit by 12 Amps.
If the plane=99s amp gauge reads starting amps, there might be an ind
ication
of higher draw than normal. A good indication to stop cranking.
Barry
On Wednesday, July 25, 2018, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
> Question for y'all. This happened at AirVenture (not my plane,
> thankfully). The cable from the battery positive terminal to the current
> limiter got loose at the current limiter end. Just loose, it did not come
> off. The pilot kept cranking on the starter until he heard a pop. The
> negative terminal on the battery has melted. See photo.
>
> I don't understand why this is the party that got hot, since this
> connector was tight. And why there is no other visible damage to the
> battery out anything else, not even the current limiter.
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
>
--
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
If you wash your hands before you go to the bathroom you may have the
makings of a Crew Chief.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
If I had to speculate, I'd be looking at the battery type, in addition
to the question of whether there really was a clean gas tight
connection on the posts. If you look up the specs on that
battery, I'll bet you'll find it was intended for service in
UPS, powered wheel chair, etc. You can get away with using
'universal' batteries for starting; I've used the SLA universals
as starting batteries for a couple of decades. But the terminals
are typically a lot smaller than a true starting battery. Even
if the terminals were clean/tight, I wonder if a drastically
extended cranking session could drive heat up enough to melt the
terminals, which are likely sized for, let's say, 20 amps continuous,
instead of 200+.
Excellent put Charlie . . .
I'm recalling the first SVLA batteries
B&C offered . . . yeah, they would dump
700A in a load test but also featured
the lead molded terminal tabs. It was important
to educate the buyers about their relative
fragility . . . that's where the soft-n-floppy,
welding cable battery jumpers originated . . .
which remains a good thing to do even with
the more robust terminals.
Bob . . .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
I think we need to review Ohm's Law and power formulas for DC circuits.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-ohm.htm
Using P for power, V for volts, R for resistance, and I for current,
pick a formula, and plug in value of 12V (or maybe 10 V, with the
starter load). Then plug in a value for the starter's resistance. Pick
virtually any value you want, but you can get a fairly realistic one by
picking an arbitrary current of 200 amps, and using V/I=R: 12V/200A=0.06
ohms.
Now that you have starter resistance, let's use V/R=I: 12/0.06 0 Amps.
Now, add your 1 ohm of extra resistance to the V/R=I formula:
12/(0.06+1.0)=x
Which reduces to: 12V/1.06R=x
Solve for x, and tell us how adding 1 ohm of series resistance increases
the current. :-)
Charlie
On 7/25/2018 11:55 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
> Art:
>
> The current limit circuit has nothing to do with it.
> The cable should be going from the battery to the starter relay to the
> starter.
> There are hundreds of amps being sucked out of the battery.
> Nothing should be limiting the current flow.
> The crank, cranking the engine probably did so WAY TOO LONG!
> Many starters stipulate 10 seconds. Well, that is too long! It should
> be more like 5 seconds.
> The only thing indicating the positive terminal was maybe tight is -
> It did not melt.
> It does not matter which terminal is loose, positive or negative,
> resistance is resistance. And you now have proof of what a poor
> connection can do.
> Also you do not know if the positive terminal was a CLEAN connection
> or how tight. One ohm of resistance under a terminal increases
> current drawing a 12 VDC circuit by 12 Amps.
> If the planes amp gauge reads starting amps, there might be an
> indication of higher draw than normal. A good indication to stop
> cranking.
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Wednesday, July 25, 2018, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name
> <mailto:art@zemon.name>> wrote:
>
> Question for y'all. This happened at AirVenture (not my plane,
> thankfully). The cable from the battery positive terminal to the
> current limiter got loose at the current limiter end. Just loose,
> it did not come off. The pilot kept cranking on the starter until
> he heard a pop. The negative terminal on the battery has melted.
> See photo.
>
> I don't understand why this is the party that got hot, since this
> connector was tight. And why there is no other visible damage to
> the battery out anything else, not even the current limiter.
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
>
>
> --
> Barry
> "Chop'd Liver"
> If you wash your hands before you go to the bathroom you may have the
> makings of a Crew Chief.
---
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Question for Bob |
On 7/24/2018 8:08 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 01:54 PM 7/24/2018, you wrote:
>> I know the discussion has gone way past this but I ran 2 AWG
>> between the batteries, contactors, and for the forward run to the
>> starter. All other 'bus' runs are 8 AWG.
>>
>> I'll attach a diagram of my Z-14 in my RV10. (2) Odyssey 680s in
>> the rear along with the 3 contactors. Everything else on the
>> diagram is forward.
>
> That should play as advertised. Only thing
> I would suggest is to make your battery
> jumpers from 4AWG welding cable. Very
> flexible and entirely sufficient
> electrically but MUCH less stress
> on the battery connector screws.
>
> Do you have a wire runnig from battery(-)
> up to your firewall ground bus?
Yes I do. My guess is that it is an 8AWG wire running from the battery
to airframe ground connection forward to the ground bus. That forward
ground bus is also grounded to the airframe.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
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Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Question for Bob |
Do you have a wire running from battery(-)
up to your firewall ground bus?
Yes I do. My guess is that it is an 8AWG wire running from the
battery to airframe ground connection forward to the ground
bus. That forward ground bus is also grounded to the airframe.
Okay . . . the resistance of that wire is probably
100 times higher than the airframe. The wire doesn't
hurt anything but it adds no value.
Also just noticed the dual power source diodes
for the oil pressure annunciator. The 'thing'
about Z-14 is that there's virtually zero
probability that either of the busses will
go dark. Powering from the aux bus alone
would eliminate the diodes.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
At 01:04 PM 7/25/2018, you wrote:
>I think we need to review Ohm's Law and power formulas for DC circuits.
><http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-ohm.htm>http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-ohm.htm
>
>Using P for power, V for volts, R for resistance, and I for current,
>pick a formula, and plug in value of 12V (or maybe 10 V, with the
>starter load). Then plug in a value for the starter's resistance.
>Pick virtually any value you want, but you can get a fairly
>realistic one by picking an arbitrary current of 200 amps, and using
>V/I=R: 12V/200A=0.06 ohms.
It's a bit more complex than that. A figure lifted from
the 'Connection will help highlight the details . . .
Emacs!
A battery has an internal resistance component. So does the starter
motor. As explained in the DC Motors posting on 6/27, we know that the
motor windings moving through the magnetic field flux generates a
COUNTER EMF, i.e. a voltage that opposes the applied voltage.
The starter motor's internal resistance sets the STALL current
which is the same as INRUSH current. That resistance will be MUCH
lower than the hypothesized 0.06 ohms cited above. Using 12v as the
'source' voltage for cranking calculations assumes that OTHER than
motor resistance, there are no additional resistances. The exemplar
cranking scenario speaks to a number of resistances not the least
of which is contained within the battery.
These numbers can be better or worse depending on the system
configuration and condition of the components but suffice it
to say that NONE of these resistances are ever so small as
to be ignored.
Inrush current, while short in duration, is several times
higher than cranking current. Note that ALL resistances cited
are, as Charlie suggested in his hypothetical, are measured
in MILLIOHMS. You don't have to add much resistance to seriously
impact system performance and in all cases, adding or increasing
any resistance causes current to go DOWN.
Bob . . .
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
You have a lot more words at your disposal than I do. :-) I was just
shooting for a simple way to show that adding series resistance can't make
current go *up* in a DC circuit.
Charlie
On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 3:34 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 01:04 PM 7/25/2018, you wrote:
>
> I think we need to review Ohm's Law and power formulas for DC circuits.
> http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-ohm.htm
>
> Using P for power, V for volts, R for resistance, and I for current, pick
> a formula, and plug in value of 12V (or maybe 10 V, with the starter load).
> Then plug in a value for the starter's resistance. Pick virtually any value
> you want, but you can get a fairly realistic one by picking an arbitrary
> current of 200 amps, and using V/I=R: 12V/200A=0.06 ohms.
>
>
> It's a bit more complex than that. A figure lifted from
> the 'Connection will help highlight the details . . .
>
> [image: Emacs!]
>
> A battery has an internal resistance component. So does the starter
> motor. As explained in the DC Motors posting on 6/27, we know that the
> motor windings moving through the magnetic field flux generates a
> COUNTER EMF, i.e. a voltage that opposes the applied voltage.
>
> The starter motor's internal resistance sets the STALL current
> which is the same as INRUSH current. That resistance will be MUCH
> lower than the hypothesized 0.06 ohms cited above. Using 12v as the
> 'source' voltage for cranking calculations assumes that OTHER than
> motor resistance, there are no additional resistances. The exemplar
> cranking scenario speaks to a number of resistances not the least
> of which is contained within the battery.
>
> These numbers can be better or worse depending on the system
> configuration and condition of the components but suffice it
> to say that NONE of these resistances are ever so small as
> to be ignored.
>
> Inrush current, while short in duration, is several times
> higher than cranking current. Note that ALL resistances cited
> are, as Charlie suggested in his hypothetical, are measured
> in MILLIOHMS. You don't have to add much resistance to seriously
> impact system performance and in all cases, adding or increasing
> any resistance causes current to go DOWN.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
At 05:18 PM 7/25/2018, you wrote:
>You have a lot more words at your disposal than I do. :-) I was just
>shooting for a simple way to show that adding series resistance
>can't make current go *up* in a DC circuit.
Understand . . . and it's absolutely
correct.
Bob . . .
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