Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:34 AM - Re: Grounding architecture (Eric M. Jones)
2. 02:12 PM - Re: Melted battery terminal (Art Zemon)
3. 02:46 PM - Re: Melted battery terminal (Charlie England)
4. 02:48 PM - Re: Melted battery terminal (Charlie England)
5. 05:47 PM - Re: Melted battery terminal (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 06:55 PM - Re: Melted battery terminal (user9253)
7. 07:00 PM - Re: Melted battery terminal (Art Zemon)
8. 07:12 PM - Re: Re: Grounding architecture (FLYaDIVE)
9. 08:29 PM - Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question (William Hunter)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding architecture |
> Eric, is the copper clad aluminum cable as stiff as copper of the same gauge?
Well, it's complicated. I don't sell this as replacement for Mogami microphone
cable. Big cable is stiff cable UNLESS like some welding cable it is made of individual
fine wires.
Copper Clad Aluminum is not made finer that 23 AWG (0.0226"), so all cables made
from it can only be so flexible. On top of that the insulation sacrifices some
flexibility to achieve its other desirable qualities. Bare, the CCA is very
flexible.
On the other hand, it IS more flexible than SOME copper cable of the same gauge,
just not all cables.
Sample on request.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481917#481917
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
Folks,
I am home now, with access to a real keyboard and a real chair :-)
AirVenture was good this year but immediately followed by a hurried trip to
New Jersey with no time to even think.
Based on your emails, I figured out my hypothesis of what happened:
1. The connector between the cable from the battery to the ammeter shunt
got loose, increasing the resistance.
2. For unknown reasons, the engine was hard to start and the pilot kept
cranking and cranking and cranking.
3. There is no circuit protection in the circuit battery positive
terminal -> shunt -> master contactor -> starter contactor -> starter motor
-> engine block -> battery negative terminal
4. Lacking circuit protection, the parts most likely to get hot enough
to melt were the lead battery terminals. It was a crap shoot which would
fail first, positive or negative. Once the negative got hot enough to
loosen up, it got hotter in a hurry and melted.
Several lessons learned.
- I don't think that pilot will do that again.
- I learned that too much cranking puts other components at risk, not
just the starter motor.
- The airplane's owner will be checking the other high current
connectors.
- In diagnosing this issue, I spotted another damaged connection
(unrelated problem) on the master contactor so the airplane's owner will
fix that too.
- I have the same battery in my airplane and when it needs replacing, I
will choose a model that doesn't have lead terminals.
Thank you for the education!
-- Art Z.
On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 10:08 AM Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
> Question for y'all. This happened at AirVenture (not my plane,
> thankfully). The cable from the battery positive terminal to the
> shunt
> got loose at the current limiter end. Just loose, it did not come off.
> The pilot kept cranking on the starter until he heard a pop. The negative
> terminal on the battery has melted. See photo.
>
> I don't understand why this is the party that got hot, since this
> connector was tight. And why there is no other visible damage to the
> battery out anything else, not even the
> shunt
> .
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."*
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
=81=A3Charlie=8B
On Jul 29, 2018, 4:39 PM, at 4:39 PM, Charlie
England <ceengland7@gmail=2Ecom> wrote:
>
>
>=81=A3Charlie=8B
>
>O
n Jul 29, 2018, 4:18 PM, at 4:18 PM, Art Zemon <art@zemon=2Ename> wrote:
>>
Folks,
>>
>>I am home now, with access to a real keyboard and a real chair
:-)
>>AirVenture was good this year but immediately followed by a hurried
>
>trip to
>>New Jersey with no time to even think=2E
>>
>>Based on your emai
ls, I figured out my hypothesis of what happened:
>>
>>1=2E The connector b
etween the cable from the battery to the ammeter
>>shunt
>> got loose, in
creasing the resistance=2E
>>2=2E For unknown reasons, the engine was hard
to start and the pilot
>kept
>> cranking and cranking and cranking=2E
>>
3=2E There is no circuit protection in the circuit battery positive
>>ter
minal -> shunt -> master contactor -> starter contactor -> starter
>>motor
>> -> engine block -> battery negative terminal
>> 4=2E Lacking circuit p
rotection, the parts most likely to get hot
>enough
>>to melt were the lead
battery terminals=2E It was a crap shoot which
>>would
>> fail first, pos
itive or negative=2E Once the negative got hot enough
>to
>> loosen up, i
t got hotter in a hurry and melted=2E
>>
>>Several lessons learned=2E
>>
>>
- I don't think that pilot will do that again=2E
>> - I learned that to
o much cranking puts other components at risk,
>not
>> just the starter m
otor=2E
>> - The airplane's owner will be checking the other high current
>> connectors=2E
>> - In diagnosing this issue, I spotted another dama
ged connection
>>(unrelated problem) on the master contactor so the airplan
e's owner
>>will
>> fix that too=2E
>>- I have the same battery in my air
plane and when it needs replacing,
>I
>> will choose a model that doesn't
have lead terminals=2E
>>
>>Thank you for the education!
>>
>> -- Art Z
=2E
>>
>>On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 10:08 AM Art Zemon <art@zemon=2Ename> wrot
e:
>>
>>> Question for y'all=2E This happened at AirVenture (not my plane,
>>> thankfully)=2E The cable from the battery positive terminal to the
>>>
shunt
>>> got loose at the current limiter end=2E Just loose, it did not c
ome
>>off=2E
>>> The pilot kept cranking on the starter until he heard a po
p=2E The
>>negative
>>> terminal on the battery has melted=2E See photo=2E
>>>
>>> I don't understand why this is the party that got hot, since this
>
>> connector was tight=2E And why there is no other visible damage to the
>
>> battery out anything else, not even the
>>> shunt
>>> =2E
>>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>https://CheerfulCurmudgeon=2Ecom/
>>
>>*"We do not see the world as it i
s=2E We see the world as we are=2E"*
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
=81=A3Charlie=8B
On Jul 29, 2018, 4:18 PM, at 4:18 PM, Art Zemo
n <art@zemon=2Ename> wrote:
>Folks,
>
>I am home now, with access to a real
keyboard and a real chair :-)
>AirVenture was good this year but immediate
ly followed by a hurried
>trip to
>New Jersey with no time to even think=2E
>
>Based on your emails, I figured out my hypothesis of what happened:
>
>
1=2E The connector between the cable from the battery to the ammeter
>shunt
> got loose, increasing the resistance=2E
>2=2E For unknown reasons, the
engine was hard to start and the pilot kept
> cranking and cranking and
cranking=2E
> 3=2E There is no circuit protection in the circuit battery
positive
>terminal -> shunt -> master contactor -> starter contactor -> sta
rter
>motor
> -> engine block -> battery negative terminal
> 4=2E Lacking
circuit protection, the parts most likely to get hot enough
>to melt were
the lead battery terminals=2E It was a crap shoot which
>would
> fail firs
t, positive or negative=2E Once the negative got hot enough to
> loosen u
p, it got hotter in a hurry and melted=2E
>
>Several lessons learned=2E
>
>
- I don't think that pilot will do that again=2E
> - I learned that too
much cranking puts other components at risk, not
> just the starter moto
r=2E
> - The airplane's owner will be checking the other high current
>
connectors=2E
> - In diagnosing this issue, I spotted another damaged co
nnection
>(unrelated problem) on the master contactor so the airplane's own
er
>will
> fix that too=2E
>- I have the same battery in my airplane and
when it needs replacing, I
> will choose a model that doesn't have lead t
erminals=2E
>
>Thank you for the education!
>
> -- Art Z=2E
>
>On Wed, J
ul 25, 2018 at 10:08 AM Art Zemon <art@zemon=2Ename> wrote:
>
>> Question f
or y'all=2E This happened at AirVenture (not my plane,
>> thankfully)=2E Th
e cable from the battery positive terminal to the
>> shunt
>> got loose at
the current limiter end=2E Just loose, it did not come
>off=2E
>> The pilo
t kept cranking on the starter until he heard a pop=2E The
>negative
>> ter
minal on the battery has melted=2E See photo=2E
>>
>> I don't understand wh
y this is the party that got hot, since this
>> connector was tight=2E And
why there is no other visible damage to the
>> battery out anything else, n
ot even the
>> shunt
>> =2E
>>
>
>
>--
>https://CheerfulCurmudgeon=2Ecom/
>
>*"We do not see the world as it is=2E We see the world as we are=2E"*
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
>
>I don't understand why this is the party that got hot, since this
>connector was tight. And why there is no other visible damage to the
>battery out anything else, not even the
>shunt
>.
>
>
>Art, two things, likely unrelated. There should never be a shunt
>anywhere in the path from battery to starter.
>
>The external components' heat didn't do the damage to the battery.
>Current exceeding the design limits of that particular battery for
>to long is likely wht caused the damage.
>
>Charlie
>
>See my earlier message about the battery type.
Agreed.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
The reason for the melted battery terminal was, as others have said, a high resistance
connection.
Of course the extended cranking time was a factor. The terminal might have seemed
to be tight,
but there was still high resistance. Sometimes the bolt is too long and the nut
runs out of threads.
The nut bottoms out and is tight, but the terminal is not tight. One time I found
a loose connection
caused by someone using a nut and bolt that did not have matching threads. For
instance a 10-24 nut
on a 10-32 bolt. Sure, the nut was tight, but the electrical connection was not
tight.
Circuit protection like a fuse or current limiter is not desired in the starter
circuit because it would add
resistance which would slow down the starter motor. Circuit protection would not
have helped anyway
because the current was not excessive. In fact, the high resistance connection
reduced the current.
Lead battery posts are not cause for concern if the terminal is clean and tight.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481935#481935
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
Charlie wrote:
Art, two things, likely unrelated. There should never be a shunt anywhere
> in the path from battery to starter.
Charlie,
You bring up a good point. You just make me realize that the shunt is in
the wrong place, measuring current to/from the battery instead of from the
alternator. I don't remember which end of the shunt is connected to the
starter contactor. I'll check, though that will take awhile since I am home
and the plane is elsewhere now.
The external components' heat didn't do the damage to the battery. Current
> exceeding the design limits of that particular battery for to long is
> likely wht caused the damage.
I do understand that.
Cheers,
-- Art Z.
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."*
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding architecture |
Eric:
If you had the chance to get a Gold Ingot why would you go for a Gold
Plated Ingot? Especially if they are the same price? And don't give the
lame excuse of weight? You eat more at a single meal than you would save
in weight if the entire plane was wired with copper plated aluminum. BTW,
what is the jacket made of on this magic wire?
Barry
On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 11:33 AM, Eric M. Jones <emjones@charter.net> wrote:
> emjones@charter.net>
>
>
> > Eric, is the copper clad aluminum cable as stiff as copper of the same
> gauge?
>
>
> Well, it's complicated. I don't sell this as replacement for Mogami
> microphone cable. Big cable is stiff cable UNLESS like some welding cable
> it is made of individual fine wires.
>
> Copper Clad Aluminum is not made finer that 23 AWG (0.0226"), so all
> cables made from it can only be so flexible. On top of that the insulation
> sacrifices some flexibility to achieve its other desirable qualities. Bare,
> the CCA is very flexible.
>
> On the other hand, it IS more flexible than SOME copper cable of the same
> gauge, just not all cables.
>
> Sample on request.
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481917#481917
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question |
What is this "airconditioner" black magic we speak of?
All I have to run with is an evaporative cooler.
Yes installation is definitely needed. The Arizona Sun bakes the steel box
that I am working in and I can feel the heat radiating off of the roof and
walls.
Would you be so kind as to give me a hint as to what insulation product you
bought?
The evaporative cooler converts 100 degree outside air to 80 degree air as
it enters the building however the 120 degree walls and roof are
counterproductive.
Thanks,
Bill Hunter
On Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 19:42 Charles Plumery <barber_seville@msn.com> wrote:
> I live in Florida and it is arguably cooler (insert grin), I insulated m
y
> shop that is probably the size of your hanger with insulation that is met
al
> foil with foam insulation sandwiched between layers. Bought it online and
> applied it to all the surfaces including the metal door. Spray adhesive
> holds it in place. Have had 100 degree days ! Air conditioner will freeze
> you out of shop.
> Chuck
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jul 28, 2018, at 8:33 PM, William Hunter <billhuntersemail@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Greetings,
>
> If you all would be so kind as to entertain another slightly off topic
> electrical question.
>
> In my hangar I just installed an evaporative cooler and it is powered by
a
> newly purchased 20 amp 220 volt circuit breaker.
>
> Due to an internal problem in the toggle switch out at the unit there
> was a direct short because when I closed the 20 amp circuit breaker(s)
> about 3 seconds later the entire power to the hanger was shut off because
> the 60 amp feed circuit breaker out at the house opened.
>
> This was kind of surprising because I assume that if there was a short ou
t
> at the evaporative cooler unit then the new 20 amp circuit breaker that
> I've installed for that circuit would have opened before the main 60 amp
> circuit breaker that feeds the entire hanger would open.
>
> I removed the toggle switch at the unit and directly wired the 220 volt
> wires to the unit wires and it's working perfectly (so I have a discussio
n
> with Mastercool about getting a replacement toggle switch) but regardless
I
> have concluded that the wires out to the unit are fine and the unit motor
> is working fine so my only concern at this point is why would the 20 amp
> circuit breaker not open and why would it stay closed long enough to
> require the main feed 60 amp circuit breaker to open?
>
> I have another 20 amp circuit breaker that I could install in circuit
> however I figured I would ask the collective what their thoughts were fir
st.
>
> And BTW... the evaporative cooler is taking 100 degree outside Arizona ai
r
> and making it 80=C2=B0 as it enters the hanger however a 3000 square foot
steel
> building without insulation in the Arizona Sun is a bit hard to cool. Any
> suggestions on hanger insulation?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill Hunter
>
> On Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 12:32 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 02:08 PM 7/28/2018, you wrote:
>>
>> Sorry for the slightly off topic post (however this is for a machine
>> installed inside my airplane hangar).
>>
>> I am looking for a pushbutton switch to replace the broken one on my
>> hydraulic lift.=C3=82
>>
>> It's a push button momentary contact on single pole single throw
>> switch.=C3=82 The diameter of the hole in the panel is 0.894 inches / 2
2.72
>> MM.=C3=82
>>
>> The switch that broke is labeled CHNT NP4 and it has other numbers on it
>> such as GB140 48.5 and it's a 10 amp switch.=C3=82 =C3=82
>>
>> It is a switch that you push and hold in the button and then a relay
>> closes to energize the electric motor that moves the hydraulic pump.
>>
>> Again, sorry about the off-topic post however I've spent 30 minutes on
>> the Google=C3=82 with no success but I'm sure there's a guy on this for
um that
>> will recognize this switch immediately and know exactly where to find on
e
>> (or one that will work).
>>
>> Thanks!!!=C3=82
>>
>> Bill Hunter
>>
>>
>>
>> There is nothing electrically special about this
>> switch other than the fact that it's normally open.
>>
>> You probably want to get the door operable ASAP
>> so go to a hardware store and get ANY normally open
>> P.B. Here's one example at Lowes.
>>
>> https://goo.gl/66gez5
>> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgoo
.gl%2F66gez5&data=02%7C01%7C%7C97ca52dc77d04c1f55a408d5f4eae1b9%7C84df9e7
fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636684211996932189&sdata=VaIB1hKCKEyP
W0qnJ80eEN2oTLkL%2F1suf38dLLcV6U4%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> Wire it into place temporarily . . . mgiht even let it
>> dangle on the wires wrapped with tape to keep the
>> electrons from tunning onto the floor.
>>
>> Then order one of these:
>>
>>
>> https://goo.gl/pTKXPT
>>
>>
>>
>> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgoo
.gl%2FpTKXPT&data=02%7C01%7C%7C97ca52dc77d04c1f55a408d5f4eae1b9%7C84df9e7
fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636684211996932189&sdata=87sqyBtYQ477
2oANVGGca60WXkphrkMAYMbTXW1wAS0%3D&reserved=0>It
>> will directly replace the switch that's broken
>> and will be delivered to your door in a few days
>> for free.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
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