Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:29 AM - Re: Melted battery terminal (user9253)
2. 05:35 AM - Re: Re: Melted battery terminal (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 05:50 AM - Re: Grounding architecture (Eric M. Jones)
4. 05:52 AM - Re: Re: Melted battery terminal (Charlie England)
5. 06:24 AM - Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question (Charles Plumery)
6. 07:08 AM - Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question (Charlie England)
7. 10:35 AM - Re: Melted battery terminal (user9253)
8. 10:57 AM - Re: Re: Melted battery terminal (Art Zemon)
9. 01:35 PM - Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question (Alec Myers)
10. 02:20 PM - Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question (Charlie England)
11. 02:41 PM - Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question (Alec Myers)
12. 02:45 PM - Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question (Alec Myers)
13. 02:52 PM - Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question (FLYaDIVE)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
If the battery manufacturer designed battery terminals which are not capable of
carrying maximum battery current, then why didn't both battery terminals melt?
Equal current flows through both terminals.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481942#481942
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
At 06:29 AM 7/30/2018, you wrote:
>
>If the battery manufacturer designed battery terminals which are not
>capable of carrying maximum battery current, then why didn't both
>battery terminals melt? Equal current flows through both terminals.
But the thermal dynamics are not necessarily
matched . . . what are the relative heat
rejection pathways for the two terminals
and were the joint make-up pressures identical?
One generally designs most conductors to
have a lot of head-room for current vs.
risk of destruction. Recall my exhibit where
a 22AWG wire was shown to carry 20Amps without
putting either wire or insulation at risk?
These terminals were being operated a lot further
up risk-mountain than the manufacturer would
have suggested. Just because any particular
SVLA battery is capable of dumping huge currents
consistent with engine cranking doesn't mean
that it's a low risk application.
Consider the cross section of the failed
terminals with say the posts on top of a
car battery. Engine cranking currents on
most car engines is on a par with that required
to crank an aircraft engine. I've never seen
a car battery post melt . . . even with loose
terminals.
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: Grounding architecture |
Barry,
You obviously took the opportunity to attack me and the idea instead of reading
the literature.
CCA is not "Plated". It is 10% copper in cross-section. Copper is not the "Good
Stuff" and aluminum the "Bad Stuff." Aluminum is a better conductor by weight
than copper. Every part of the modern electrical grid is aluminum. Boeing, Airbus
and lots of other companies (including Michael Waltrip Racing) use tons of
the CCA. Using CCA and saves 1/2 the weight of Copper.
If that seems stupid to you, go your own way.
I never recommend CCA if the battery is on the firewall, and generally don't recommend
it if the wire size is small (although for critical applications...some
still demand it.)
As for the insulation, I sell Tefzel when requested, but battery cables don't get
hot and the proprietary formulation I usually sell is more appropriate for
this application.
And yes it IS MAGIC.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481946#481946
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Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
I think he said that both did melt=2E
=81=A3Charlie=8B
On Jul 30
, 2018, 6:33 AM, at 6:33 AM, user9253 <fransew@gmail=2Ecom> wrote:
>--> Aer
oElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew@gmail=2Ecom>
>
>If th
e battery manufacturer designed battery terminals which are not
>capable of
carrying maximum battery current, then why didn't both
>battery terminals
melt? Equal current flows through both terminals=2E
>
>--------
>Joe Gores
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums=2Ematronics=2Ecom/v
iewtopic=2Ephp?p=481942#481942
>
>
tronics List Features Navigator to browse
ch as List Un/Subscription,
Chat, FAQ,
://www=2Ematronics=2Ecom/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
=====
e great content also available via the Web Forums!
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======================
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========
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Subject: | Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question |
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Message 6
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Subject: | Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question |
Bill,
Just search for 'foil faced insulation' If it's a typical flat walled
building, try 'foil faced polystyrene' or 'radiant barrier polystyrene'.
For keeping heat out, you'll probably get best results if you can 'air gap'
between the metal skin and the radiant barrier (foil) and allow some air
flow in at the bottom & out at the top. Direct contact kinda kills the
radiant barrier effect & tries to heat the foam through conduction.
Basically a bigger version of a radiant barrier around an exhaust pipe in
your a/c cowl.
Charlie
On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 8:23 AM, Charles Plumery <barber_seville@msn.com>
wrote:
> Insulation4less.com
> Or similar product.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jul 29, 2018, at 11:36 PM, William Hunter <billhuntersemail@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> What is this "airconditioner" black magic we speak of?
>
> All I have to run with is an evaporative cooler.
>
> Yes installation is definitely needed. The Arizona Sun bakes the steel bo
x
> that I am working in and I can feel the heat radiating off of the roof an
d
> walls.
>
> Would you be so kind as to give me a hint as to what insulation product
> you bought?
>
> The evaporative cooler converts 100 degree outside air to 80 degree air a
s
> it enters the building however the 120 degree walls and roof are
> counterproductive.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill Hunter
>
> On Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 19:42 Charles Plumery <barber_seville@msn.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I live in Florida and it is arguably cooler (insert grin), I insulated
>> my shop that is probably the size of your hanger with insulation that is
>> metal foil with foam insulation sandwiched between layers. Bought it onl
ine
>> and applied it to all the surfaces including the metal door. Spray adhes
ive
>> holds it in place. Have had 100 degree days ! Air conditioner will freez
e
>> you out of shop.
>> Chuck
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Jul 28, 2018, at 8:33 PM, William Hunter <billhuntersemail@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> If you all would be so kind as to entertain another slightly off topic
>> electrical question.
>>
>> In my hangar I just installed an evaporative cooler and it is powered by
>> a newly purchased 20 amp 220 volt circuit breaker.
>>
>> Due to an internal problem in the toggle switch out at the unit there
>> was a direct short because when I closed the 20 amp circuit breaker(s)
>> about 3 seconds later the entire power to the hanger was shut off becaus
e
>> the 60 amp feed circuit breaker out at the house opened.
>>
>> This was kind of surprising because I assume that if there was a short
>> out at the evaporative cooler unit then the new 20 amp circuit breaker t
hat
>> I've installed for that circuit would have opened before the main 60 amp
>> circuit breaker that feeds the entire hanger would open.
>>
>> I removed the toggle switch at the unit and directly wired the 220 volt
>> wires to the unit wires and it's working perfectly (so I have a discussi
on
>> with Mastercool about getting a replacement toggle switch) but regardles
s I
>> have concluded that the wires out to the unit are fine and the unit moto
r
>> is working fine so my only concern at this point is why would the 20 amp
>> circuit breaker not open and why would it stay closed long enough to
>> require the main feed 60 amp circuit breaker to open?
>>
>> I have another 20 amp circuit breaker that I could install in circuit
>> however I figured I would ask the collective what their thoughts were fi
rst.
>>
>> And BTW... the evaporative cooler is taking 100 degree outside Arizona
>> air and making it 80=C2=B0 as it enters the hanger however a 3000 square
foot
>> steel building without insulation in the Arizona Sun is a bit hard to co
ol.
>> Any suggestions on hanger insulation?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Bill Hunter
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 12:32 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
>> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>>
>>> At 02:08 PM 7/28/2018, you wrote:
>>>
>>> Sorry for the slightly off topic post (however this is for a machine
>>> installed inside my airplane hangar).
>>>
>>> I am looking for a pushbutton switch to replace the broken one on my
>>> hydraulic lift.=C3=82
>>>
>>> It's a push button momentary contact on single pole single throw
>>> switch.=C3=82 The diameter of the hole in the panel is 0.894 inches /
22.72
>>> MM.=C3=82
>>>
>>> The switch that broke is labeled CHNT NP4 and it has other numbers on i
t
>>> such as GB140 48.5 and it's a 10 amp switch.=C3=82 =C3=82
>>>
>>> It is a switch that you push and hold in the button and then a relay
>>> closes to energize the electric motor that moves the hydraulic pump.
>>>
>>> Again, sorry about the off-topic post however I've spent 30 minutes on
>>> the Google=C3=82 with no success but I'm sure there's a guy on this fo
rum that
>>> will recognize this switch immediately and know exactly where to find o
ne
>>> (or one that will work).
>>>
>>> Thanks!!!=C3=82
>>>
>>> Bill Hunter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is nothing electrically special about this
>>> switch other than the fact that it's normally open.
>>>
>>> You probably want to get the door operable ASAP
>>> so go to a hardware store and get ANY normally open
>>> P.B. Here's one example at Lowes.
>>>
>>> https://goo.gl/66gez5
>>> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo
o.gl%2F66gez5&data=02%7C01%7C%7C97ca52dc77d04c1f55a408d5f4eae1b9%7C84df9e
7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636684211996932189&sdata=VaIB1hKCKEy
PW0qnJ80eEN2oTLkL%2F1suf38dLLcV6U4%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>> Wire it into place temporarily . . . mgiht even let it
>>> dangle on the wires wrapped with tape to keep the
>>> electrons from tunning onto the floor.
>>>
>>> Then order one of these:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://goo.gl/pTKXPT
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo
o.gl%2FpTKXPT&data=02%7C01%7C%7C97ca52dc77d04c1f55a408d5f4eae1b9%7C84df9e
7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636684211996932189&sdata=87sqyBtYQ47
72oANVGGca60WXkphrkMAYMbTXW1wAS0%3D&reserved=0>It
>>> will directly replace the switch that's broken
>>> and will be delivered to your door in a few days
>>> for free.
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>>>
>>
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Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
It would be interesting to learn what the battery manufacturer has to say about
the melted terminal. Would they put the blame on pilot error or battery design
or poor connection or too small wire size or a combination of these?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481963#481963
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Subject: | Re: Melted battery terminal |
Guys,
I think we've got some overthinking going on here. It really boils down to
this: If you pull so much energy through a circuit that stuff gets hot
enough to fail, the thing that heats up to its failure point first is going
to fail first. In this circuit, that thing was a lead battery terminal.
-- Art Z.
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."*
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Subject: | Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question |
>From a physics point of view, theres no difference between keeping heat out and
keeping heat in. Any kind of convection allows heat to transport more easily,
and should probably be avoided.
Whats the radiant barrier effect?
On Jul 30, 2018, at 10:07 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
probably get best results if you can 'air gap' between the metal skin and the
radiant barrier (foil) and allow some air flow in at the bottom & out at the top.
Direct contact kinda kills the radiant barrier effect & tries to heat the
foam through conduction. Basically a bigger version of a radiant barrier around
an exhaust pipe
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Subject: | Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question |
You left out one method. :-) (conduction)
Here are some links for light reading:
https://www.google.com/search?q=convection+vs+conduction+vs+radiation&oq=convection+vs+conduction+vs+radiation&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.9568j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
For a quick demo, go stand in the sun for a few minutes, then raise an
umbrella between you and the sun, and wait another few minutes.
(Covering the outside of the umbrella with foil or pure white would
improve performance.) Which way is cooler for you?
I mentioned the air gap/ flow trick because if the air is trapped it
will eventually reach the same temp as the skin, and then try to heat
the barrier directly. With a bit of air flow between skin & radiant
barrier, the air gap stays cooler, and there's less temperature
differential trying to force its way through the conductive insulation
barrier (the polystyrene, fiberglass, etc).
Charlie
On 7/30/2018 3:34 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>
> >From a physics point of view, theres no difference between keeping heat out
and keeping heat in. Any kind of convection allows heat to transport more easily,
and should probably be avoided.
>
> Whats the radiant barrier effect?
>
>
> On Jul 30, 2018, at 10:07 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> probably get best results if you can 'air gap' between the metal skin and the
radiant barrier (foil) and allow some air flow in at the bottom & out at the
top. Direct contact kinda kills the radiant barrier effect & tries to heat the
foam through conduction. Basically a bigger version of a radiant barrier around
an exhaust pipe
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Subject: | Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question |
I think youre overestimating how much heat gets conducted through a good insulation
material like foam, or glass wool. All the wall cavities in my house are
stuffed with spray foam or mineral wool because any kind of convection conducts
heat much faster than if the space were filled with a solid.
There are three reasons not to fill a heat barrier with a good insulator - if you
can evacuate the space, like in a thermos flask , then no gas means no convention.
Or, alternatively, you need transparency, like in double glazed window
panels. Windows dont transmit light when full of foam. (Even there, you fill
the gap with argon.) And I guess the third one would be if the temperature youre
trying to insulate is so hot that any reasonably priced insulator would melt.
On Jul 30, 2018, at 5:20 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
You left out one method. :-) (conduction)
Here are some links for light reading:
https://www.google.com/search?q=convection+vs+conduction+vs+radiation&oq=convection+vs+conduction+vs+radiation&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.9568j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
For a quick demo, go stand in the sun for a few minutes, then raise an umbrella
between you and the sun, and wait another few minutes. (Covering the outside
of the umbrella with foil or pure white would improve performance.) Which way
is cooler for you?
I mentioned the air gap/ flow trick because if the air is trapped it will eventually
reach the same temp as the skin, and then try to heat the barrier directly.
With a bit of air flow between skin & radiant barrier, the air gap stays cooler,
and there's less temperature differential trying to force its way through
the conductive insulation barrier (the polystyrene, fiberglass, etc).
Charlie
On 7/30/2018 3:34 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>
> >From a physics point of view, theres no difference between keeping heat out
and keeping heat in. Any kind of convection allows heat to transport more easily,
and should probably be avoided.
>
> Whats the radiant barrier effect?
>
>
>
> On Jul 30, 2018, at 10:07 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> probably get best results if you can 'air gap' between the metal skin and the
radiant barrier (foil) and allow some air flow in at the bottom & out at the
top. Direct contact kinda kills the radiant barrier effect & tries to heat the
foam through conduction. Basically a bigger version of a radiant barrier around
an exhaust pipe
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Subject: | Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question |
Actually scratch that last one: furnaces, gas forges and pottery kilns are all
insulated with refractory brick. Not with air gaps.
On Jul 30, 2018, at 5:41 PM, Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote:
I think youre overestimating how much heat gets conducted through a good insulation
material like foam, or glass wool. All the wall cavities in my house are
stuffed with spray foam or mineral wool because any kind of convection conducts
heat much faster than if the space were filled with a solid.
There are three reasons not to fill a heat barrier with a good insulator - if you
can evacuate the space, like in a thermos flask , then no gas means no convention.
Or, alternatively, you need transparency, like in double glazed window
panels. Windows dont transmit light when full of foam. (Even there, you fill
the gap with argon.) And I guess the third one would be if the temperature youre
trying to insulate is so hot that any reasonably priced insulator would melt.
On Jul 30, 2018, at 5:20 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
You left out one method. :-) (conduction)
Here are some links for light reading:
https://www.google.com/search?q=convection+vs+conduction+vs+radiation&oq=convection+vs+conduction+vs+radiation&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.9568j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
For a quick demo, go stand in the sun for a few minutes, then raise an umbrella
between you and the sun, and wait another few minutes. (Covering the outside
of the umbrella with foil or pure white would improve performance.) Which way
is cooler for you?
I mentioned the air gap/ flow trick because if the air is trapped it will eventually
reach the same temp as the skin, and then try to heat the barrier directly.
With a bit of air flow between skin & radiant barrier, the air gap stays cooler,
and there's less temperature differential trying to force its way through
the conductive insulation barrier (the polystyrene, fiberglass, etc).
Charlie
On 7/30/2018 3:34 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>
>> From a physics point of view, theres no difference between keeping heat out
and keeping heat in. Any kind of convection allows heat to transport more easily,
and should probably be avoided.
>
> Whats the radiant barrier effect?
>
>
>
> On Jul 30, 2018, at 10:07 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> probably get best results if you can 'air gap' between the metal skin and the
radiant barrier (foil) and allow some air flow in at the bottom & out at the
top. Direct contact kinda kills the radiant barrier effect & tries to heat the
foam through conduction. Basically a bigger version of a radiant barrier around
an exhaust pipe
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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Subject: | Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question |
A radiant surface reflects heat back up away from it. [i.e.: The
reflective aluminum on the foam.]
BUT! If there is NO place to reflect the heat up to the heat is just
transmitted through the radiant surface and into the surface below it.
It is part of the principal that dense materials hold more heat than less
dense materials.
As you move your hand closer to a hot frying pan you feel more and more
heat. In the first process the air between the pan and your hand is
insulating the heat. The second process is the pan is insulating the heat
from the flames. In the third process putting your hand directly into the
flames you have no insulation at all.
Its the same principle of layering clothes, but in reverse. If there are
not enough layers or the layers too tight the heat from your body does not
stay put within a barrier and you loose body heat to the outside world.
Conduction
Convection
Radiation
Barry
On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 4:39 PM Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote:
>
> >From a physics point of view, there=99s no difference between keep
ing heat
> out and keeping heat in. Any kind of convection allows heat to transport
> more easily, and should probably be avoided.
>
> What=99s the =9Cradiant barrier=9D effect?
>
>
> On Jul 30, 2018, at 10:07 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> probably get best results if you can 'air gap' between the metal skin an
d
> the radiant barrier (foil) and allow some air flow in at the bottom & out
> at the top. Direct contact kinda kills the radiant barrier effect & tries
> to heat the foam through conduction. Basically a bigger version of a
> radiant barrier around an exhaust pipe
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
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