---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 07/30/18: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:29 AM - Re: Melted battery terminal (user9253) 2. 05:35 AM - Re: Re: Melted battery terminal (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 05:50 AM - Re: Grounding architecture (Eric M. Jones) 4. 05:52 AM - Re: Re: Melted battery terminal (Charlie England) 5. 06:24 AM - Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question (Charles Plumery) 6. 07:08 AM - Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question (Charlie England) 7. 10:35 AM - Re: Melted battery terminal (user9253) 8. 10:57 AM - Re: Re: Melted battery terminal (Art Zemon) 9. 01:35 PM - Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question (Alec Myers) 10. 02:20 PM - Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question (Charlie England) 11. 02:41 PM - Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question (Alec Myers) 12. 02:45 PM - Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question (Alec Myers) 13. 02:52 PM - Re: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question (FLYaDIVE) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:52 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Melted battery terminal From: "user9253" If the battery manufacturer designed battery terminals which are not capable of carrying maximum battery current, then why didn't both battery terminals melt? Equal current flows through both terminals. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481942#481942 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:31 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Melted battery terminal At 06:29 AM 7/30/2018, you wrote: > >If the battery manufacturer designed battery terminals which are not >capable of carrying maximum battery current, then why didn't both >battery terminals melt? Equal current flows through both terminals. But the thermal dynamics are not necessarily matched . . . what are the relative heat rejection pathways for the two terminals and were the joint make-up pressures identical? One generally designs most conductors to have a lot of head-room for current vs. risk of destruction. Recall my exhibit where a 22AWG wire was shown to carry 20Amps without putting either wire or insulation at risk? These terminals were being operated a lot further up risk-mountain than the manufacturer would have suggested. Just because any particular SVLA battery is capable of dumping huge currents consistent with engine cranking doesn't mean that it's a low risk application. Consider the cross section of the failed terminals with say the posts on top of a car battery. Engine cranking currents on most car engines is on a par with that required to crank an aircraft engine. I've never seen a car battery post melt . . . even with loose terminals. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:47 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Grounding architecture From: "Eric M. Jones" Barry, You obviously took the opportunity to attack me and the idea instead of reading the literature. CCA is not "Plated". It is 10% copper in cross-section. Copper is not the "Good Stuff" and aluminum the "Bad Stuff." Aluminum is a better conductor by weight than copper. Every part of the modern electrical grid is aluminum. Boeing, Airbus and lots of other companies (including Michael Waltrip Racing) use tons of the CCA. Using CCA and saves 1/2 the weight of Copper. If that seems stupid to you, go your own way. I never recommend CCA if the battery is on the firewall, and generally don't recommend it if the wire size is small (although for critical applications...some still demand it.) As for the insulation, I sell Tefzel when requested, but battery cables don't get hot and the proprietary formulation I usually sell is more appropriate for this application. And yes it IS MAGIC. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481946#481946 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Melted battery terminal From: Charlie England I think he said that both did melt=2E =81=A3Charlie=8B On Jul 30 , 2018, 6:33 AM, at 6:33 AM, user9253 wrote: >--> Aer oElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" > >If th e battery manufacturer designed battery terminals which are not >capable of carrying maximum battery current, then why didn't both >battery terminals melt? Equal current flows through both terminals=2E > >-------- >Joe Gores > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums=2Ematronics=2Ecom/v iewtopic=2Ephp?p=481942#481942 > > tronics List Features Navigator to browse ch as List Un/Subscription, Chat, FAQ, ://www=2Ematronics=2Ecom/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ===== e great content also available via the Web Forums! ://forums=2Ematronics=2Ecom ====================== = - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - tronics Email List Wiki! ======== - -Matt Dralle, List Admin=2E com/contribution ================ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:08 AM PST US From: Charles Plumery Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question SW5zdWxhdGlvbjRsZXNzLmNvbTxodHRwOi8vSW5zdWxhdGlvbjRsZXNzLmNvbT4NCk9yIHNpbWls YXIgcHJvZHVjdC4NCg0KU2VudCBmcm9tIG15IGlQYWQNCg0KT24gSnVsIDI5LCAyMDE4LCBhdCAx MTozNiBQTSwgV2lsbGlhbSBIdW50ZXIgPGJpbGxodW50ZXJzZW1haWxAZ21haWwuY29tPG1haWx0 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_____________________________________ Time: 07:08:01 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question Bill, Just search for 'foil faced insulation' If it's a typical flat walled building, try 'foil faced polystyrene' or 'radiant barrier polystyrene'. For keeping heat out, you'll probably get best results if you can 'air gap' between the metal skin and the radiant barrier (foil) and allow some air flow in at the bottom & out at the top. Direct contact kinda kills the radiant barrier effect & tries to heat the foam through conduction. Basically a bigger version of a radiant barrier around an exhaust pipe in your a/c cowl. Charlie On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 8:23 AM, Charles Plumery wrote: > Insulation4less.com > Or similar product. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jul 29, 2018, at 11:36 PM, William Hunter > wrote: > > What is this "airconditioner" black magic we speak of? > > All I have to run with is an evaporative cooler. > > Yes installation is definitely needed. The Arizona Sun bakes the steel bo x > that I am working in and I can feel the heat radiating off of the roof an d > walls. > > Would you be so kind as to give me a hint as to what insulation product > you bought? > > The evaporative cooler converts 100 degree outside air to 80 degree air a s > it enters the building however the 120 degree walls and roof are > counterproductive. > > Thanks, > > Bill Hunter > > On Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 19:42 Charles Plumery > wrote: > >> I live in Florida and it is arguably cooler (insert grin), I insulated >> my shop that is probably the size of your hanger with insulation that is >> metal foil with foam insulation sandwiched between layers. Bought it onl ine >> and applied it to all the surfaces including the metal door. Spray adhes ive >> holds it in place. Have had 100 degree days ! Air conditioner will freez e >> you out of shop. >> Chuck >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jul 28, 2018, at 8:33 PM, William Hunter >> wrote: >> >> Greetings, >> >> If you all would be so kind as to entertain another slightly off topic >> electrical question. >> >> In my hangar I just installed an evaporative cooler and it is powered by >> a newly purchased 20 amp 220 volt circuit breaker. >> >> Due to an internal problem in the toggle switch out at the unit there >> was a direct short because when I closed the 20 amp circuit breaker(s) >> about 3 seconds later the entire power to the hanger was shut off becaus e >> the 60 amp feed circuit breaker out at the house opened. >> >> This was kind of surprising because I assume that if there was a short >> out at the evaporative cooler unit then the new 20 amp circuit breaker t hat >> I've installed for that circuit would have opened before the main 60 amp >> circuit breaker that feeds the entire hanger would open. >> >> I removed the toggle switch at the unit and directly wired the 220 volt >> wires to the unit wires and it's working perfectly (so I have a discussi on >> with Mastercool about getting a replacement toggle switch) but regardles s I >> have concluded that the wires out to the unit are fine and the unit moto r >> is working fine so my only concern at this point is why would the 20 amp >> circuit breaker not open and why would it stay closed long enough to >> require the main feed 60 amp circuit breaker to open? >> >> I have another 20 amp circuit breaker that I could install in circuit >> however I figured I would ask the collective what their thoughts were fi rst. >> >> And BTW... the evaporative cooler is taking 100 degree outside Arizona >> air and making it 80=C2=B0 as it enters the hanger however a 3000 square foot >> steel building without insulation in the Arizona Sun is a bit hard to co ol. >> Any suggestions on hanger insulation? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bill Hunter >> >> On Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 12:32 Robert L. Nuckolls, III < >> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: >> >>> At 02:08 PM 7/28/2018, you wrote: >>> >>> Sorry for the slightly off topic post (however this is for a machine >>> installed inside my airplane hangar). >>> >>> I am looking for a pushbutton switch to replace the broken one on my >>> hydraulic lift.=C3=82 >>> >>> It's a push button momentary contact on single pole single throw >>> switch.=C3=82 The diameter of the hole in the panel is 0.894 inches / 22.72 >>> MM.=C3=82 >>> >>> The switch that broke is labeled CHNT NP4 and it has other numbers on i t >>> such as GB140 48.5 and it's a 10 amp switch.=C3=82 =C3=82 >>> >>> It is a switch that you push and hold in the button and then a relay >>> closes to energize the electric motor that moves the hydraulic pump. >>> >>> Again, sorry about the off-topic post however I've spent 30 minutes on >>> the Google=C3=82 with no success but I'm sure there's a guy on this fo rum that >>> will recognize this switch immediately and know exactly where to find o ne >>> (or one that will work). >>> >>> Thanks!!!=C3=82 >>> >>> Bill Hunter >>> >>> >>> >>> There is nothing electrically special about this >>> switch other than the fact that it's normally open. >>> >>> You probably want to get the door operable ASAP >>> so go to a hardware store and get ANY normally open >>> P.B. Here's one example at Lowes. >>> >>> https://goo.gl/66gez5 >>> >>> >>> Wire it into place temporarily . . . mgiht even let it >>> dangle on the wires wrapped with tape to keep the >>> electrons from tunning onto the floor. >>> >>> Then order one of these: >>> >>> >>> https://goo.gl/pTKXPT >>> >>> >>> >>> It >>> will directly replace the switch that's broken >>> and will be delivered to your door in a few days >>> for free. >>> >>> Bob . . . >>> >> ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:35:53 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Melted battery terminal From: "user9253" It would be interesting to learn what the battery manufacturer has to say about the melted terminal. Would they put the blame on pilot error or battery design or poor connection or too small wire size or a combination of these? -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481963#481963 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:57:49 AM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Melted battery terminal Guys, I think we've got some overthinking going on here. It really boils down to this: If you pull so much energy through a circuit that stuff gets hot enough to fail, the thing that heats up to its failure point first is going to fail first. In this circuit, that thing was a lead battery terminal. -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."* ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:35:16 PM PST US From: Alec Myers Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question >From a physics point of view, theres no difference between keeping heat out and keeping heat in. Any kind of convection allows heat to transport more easily, and should probably be avoided. Whats the radiant barrier effect? On Jul 30, 2018, at 10:07 AM, Charlie England wrote: probably get best results if you can 'air gap' between the metal skin and the radiant barrier (foil) and allow some air flow in at the bottom & out at the top. Direct contact kinda kills the radiant barrier effect & tries to heat the foam through conduction. Basically a bigger version of a radiant barrier around an exhaust pipe ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question From: Charlie England You left out one method. :-) (conduction) Here are some links for light reading: https://www.google.com/search?q=convection+vs+conduction+vs+radiation&oq=convection+vs+conduction+vs+radiation&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.9568j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 For a quick demo, go stand in the sun for a few minutes, then raise an umbrella between you and the sun, and wait another few minutes. (Covering the outside of the umbrella with foil or pure white would improve performance.) Which way is cooler for you? I mentioned the air gap/ flow trick because if the air is trapped it will eventually reach the same temp as the skin, and then try to heat the barrier directly. With a bit of air flow between skin & radiant barrier, the air gap stays cooler, and there's less temperature differential trying to force its way through the conductive insulation barrier (the polystyrene, fiberglass, etc). Charlie On 7/30/2018 3:34 PM, Alec Myers wrote: > > >From a physics point of view, theres no difference between keeping heat out and keeping heat in. Any kind of convection allows heat to transport more easily, and should probably be avoided. > > Whats the radiant barrier effect? > > > On Jul 30, 2018, at 10:07 AM, Charlie England wrote: > > probably get best results if you can 'air gap' between the metal skin and the radiant barrier (foil) and allow some air flow in at the bottom & out at the top. Direct contact kinda kills the radiant barrier effect & tries to heat the foam through conduction. Basically a bigger version of a radiant barrier around an exhaust pipe > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:41:50 PM PST US From: Alec Myers Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question I think youre overestimating how much heat gets conducted through a good insulation material like foam, or glass wool. All the wall cavities in my house are stuffed with spray foam or mineral wool because any kind of convection conducts heat much faster than if the space were filled with a solid. There are three reasons not to fill a heat barrier with a good insulator - if you can evacuate the space, like in a thermos flask , then no gas means no convention. Or, alternatively, you need transparency, like in double glazed window panels. Windows dont transmit light when full of foam. (Even there, you fill the gap with argon.) And I guess the third one would be if the temperature youre trying to insulate is so hot that any reasonably priced insulator would melt. On Jul 30, 2018, at 5:20 PM, Charlie England wrote: You left out one method. :-) (conduction) Here are some links for light reading: https://www.google.com/search?q=convection+vs+conduction+vs+radiation&oq=convection+vs+conduction+vs+radiation&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.9568j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 For a quick demo, go stand in the sun for a few minutes, then raise an umbrella between you and the sun, and wait another few minutes. (Covering the outside of the umbrella with foil or pure white would improve performance.) Which way is cooler for you? I mentioned the air gap/ flow trick because if the air is trapped it will eventually reach the same temp as the skin, and then try to heat the barrier directly. With a bit of air flow between skin & radiant barrier, the air gap stays cooler, and there's less temperature differential trying to force its way through the conductive insulation barrier (the polystyrene, fiberglass, etc). Charlie On 7/30/2018 3:34 PM, Alec Myers wrote: > > >From a physics point of view, theres no difference between keeping heat out and keeping heat in. Any kind of convection allows heat to transport more easily, and should probably be avoided. > > Whats the radiant barrier effect? > > > > On Jul 30, 2018, at 10:07 AM, Charlie England wrote: > > probably get best results if you can 'air gap' between the metal skin and the radiant barrier (foil) and allow some air flow in at the bottom & out at the top. Direct contact kinda kills the radiant barrier effect & tries to heat the foam through conduction. Basically a bigger version of a radiant barrier around an exhaust pipe > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:45:47 PM PST US From: Alec Myers Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question Actually scratch that last one: furnaces, gas forges and pottery kilns are all insulated with refractory brick. Not with air gaps. On Jul 30, 2018, at 5:41 PM, Alec Myers wrote: I think youre overestimating how much heat gets conducted through a good insulation material like foam, or glass wool. All the wall cavities in my house are stuffed with spray foam or mineral wool because any kind of convection conducts heat much faster than if the space were filled with a solid. There are three reasons not to fill a heat barrier with a good insulator - if you can evacuate the space, like in a thermos flask , then no gas means no convention. Or, alternatively, you need transparency, like in double glazed window panels. Windows dont transmit light when full of foam. (Even there, you fill the gap with argon.) And I guess the third one would be if the temperature youre trying to insulate is so hot that any reasonably priced insulator would melt. On Jul 30, 2018, at 5:20 PM, Charlie England wrote: You left out one method. :-) (conduction) Here are some links for light reading: https://www.google.com/search?q=convection+vs+conduction+vs+radiation&oq=convection+vs+conduction+vs+radiation&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.9568j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 For a quick demo, go stand in the sun for a few minutes, then raise an umbrella between you and the sun, and wait another few minutes. (Covering the outside of the umbrella with foil or pure white would improve performance.) Which way is cooler for you? I mentioned the air gap/ flow trick because if the air is trapped it will eventually reach the same temp as the skin, and then try to heat the barrier directly. With a bit of air flow between skin & radiant barrier, the air gap stays cooler, and there's less temperature differential trying to force its way through the conductive insulation barrier (the polystyrene, fiberglass, etc). Charlie On 7/30/2018 3:34 PM, Alec Myers wrote: > >> From a physics point of view, theres no difference between keeping heat out and keeping heat in. Any kind of convection allows heat to transport more easily, and should probably be avoided. > > Whats the radiant barrier effect? > > > > On Jul 30, 2018, at 10:07 AM, Charlie England wrote: > > probably get best results if you can 'air gap' between the metal skin and the radiant barrier (foil) and allow some air flow in at the bottom & out at the top. Direct contact kinda kills the radiant barrier effect & tries to heat the foam through conduction. Basically a bigger version of a radiant barrier around an exhaust pipe > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:52:09 PM PST US From: FLYaDIVE Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 220 VAC Circuit Breaker Question A radiant surface reflects heat back up away from it. [i.e.: The reflective aluminum on the foam.] BUT! If there is NO place to reflect the heat up to the heat is just transmitted through the radiant surface and into the surface below it. It is part of the principal that dense materials hold more heat than less dense materials. As you move your hand closer to a hot frying pan you feel more and more heat. In the first process the air between the pan and your hand is insulating the heat. The second process is the pan is insulating the heat from the flames. In the third process putting your hand directly into the flames you have no insulation at all. Its the same principle of layering clothes, but in reverse. If there are not enough layers or the layers too tight the heat from your body does not stay put within a barrier and you loose body heat to the outside world. Conduction Convection Radiation Barry On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 4:39 PM Alec Myers wrote: > > >From a physics point of view, there=99s no difference between keep ing heat > out and keeping heat in. Any kind of convection allows heat to transport > more easily, and should probably be avoided. > > What=99s the =9Cradiant barrier=9D effect? > > > On Jul 30, 2018, at 10:07 AM, Charlie England > wrote: > > probably get best results if you can 'air gap' between the metal skin an d > the radiant barrier (foil) and allow some air flow in at the bottom & out > at the top. Direct contact kinda kills the radiant barrier effect & tries > to heat the foam through conduction. Basically a bigger version of a > radiant barrier around an exhaust pipe > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.