Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:17 AM - Re: elt antenna (Stuart Hutchison)
2. 02:30 AM - Re: elt antenna (Werner Schneider)
3. 05:00 AM - Re: elt antenna (bob noffs)
4. 06:33 AM - Re: elt antenna (Kelly McMullen)
5. 08:04 AM - Re: elt antenna (Sebastien)
6. 08:11 AM - Re: elt antenna (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 08:15 AM - Re: elt antenna - Question for Bob (skywagon@charter.net)
8. 09:01 AM - Re: elt antenna - Question for Bob (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 09:37 AM - Re: elt antenna (Ken Ryan)
10. 09:47 AM - Re: elt antenna (Jared Yates)
11. 10:54 AM - Re: elt antenna (FLYaDIVE)
12. 11:00 AM - Re: elt antenna (eschlanser)
13. 11:25 AM - Re: elt antenna (Carlos Trigo)
14. 01:57 PM - Re: elt antenna (Alec Myers)
15. 02:35 PM - Re: elt antenna (don van santen)
16. 03:17 PM - Re: elt antenna (John Morgensen)
17. 03:58 PM - Re: elt antenna (FLYaDIVE)
18. 06:36 PM - Re: Re: ELT antenna (Stuart Hutchison)
19. 07:05 PM - Re: elt antenna (Stuart Hutchison)
Message 1
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Barry,
For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop
the 400lb engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee
that. However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the
vertical stab where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over.
I have reviewed numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT
installation has a pretty good chance of remaining operational, provided
I mount the coax with sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a
buckling fuselage. Even an inverted whip is correctly oriented for low
altitude (i.e. closer to the horizon) satellites to receive from a
=98donut=99 radiation pattern. And, no matter which Local
User Terminal around the world receives the signal, the position will
still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in near real
time. The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W and
randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of being
received and relayed by at least one satellite.
I don=99t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on
this forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point
of view, I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste
of time and money. Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical
Coordinator for the Australian RCC, plus many more years as an
Operations Officer, then SAR Officer and SAR instructor have proven time
and time again to me the value of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded
GPS. Crashed aircraft are incredibly difficult to see from the air when
moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles a minute. Yes ADS-B is a great
starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for example, you have an
electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B output (smoke and
fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and becomes a crash
situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan can easily
delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival time. I can
tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is very
distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few
hours. It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you
might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly
where to look. In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of
Air Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash. A small piece of
media misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was
overlooked. The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a
follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had
survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the
crash before succumbing to exposure.
It=99s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and
as aviators we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared. The
mandate is there for good reason, so we should install the ELT
correctly, register and maintain it it=99s definitely
not worth risking your life to neglect the ELT / PLB. And, carry a
jumper :-) The priorities of survival are Protection (from the
elements), Location (signalling devices, fires etc), Water, Food
in that order. We can survive for three days without water and 30 days
without food, but who would want to do that? I=99d rather get
outta there.
Kind regards, Stu
> On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
> So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
> When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier
between the ELT antenna and the sky.
> Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
> And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz
Stab wing tips being the best location.
> Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless. They are usually
in a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery. They are an
FAA Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
> Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal
Locating Transmitter).
>
> Choose wisely Grasshopper,
>
> Barry
Message 2
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Message 3
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thanks bob and everyone. i think everyone can say they learned something.
for sure i will raise my elt so the base is at window level. my mounting
area is easily accessable and changes to the bracket are not difficult. i
think i will mount the antenna and contact the proper authorities before a
test and see what it does!
thanks again.
bob noffs
On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 4:40 AM Werner Schneider <glastar@gmx.net> wrote:
> Hello Ken and Art,
>
> I can confirm the 406 does work, I had a friend of mine where the plane
> flipped over on an emergency landing
>
>
> His antenna was on the top before the fin
>
>
> and even being inverted and antenna partly damaged the SAR helicopter was
> on site in a very short time!
>
> Cheers Werner
>
> On 17.08.2018 00:16, Ken Ryan wrote:
>
> Art, your thinking is correct. To say modern 406 ELTs are no good is a
> statement that cannot be rationally justified.
>
>
Message 4
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The debate is somewhat charged in the US because you have 121.5 ELTs
that are still legal for install, as well as the 406 ELTs. The antenna
needs are different. IMHO there is too much focus on aircraft either
remaining upright, or flipping on their backs. While those may be the
majority of cases. I've seen enough wrecks where it isn't the
case...such as stall spin accidents, CFIT accidents. So position that is
protected from external damage has some value, but is hard to predict.
406 ELTs more likely need brand specific antennas. A few do have built
in GPS, but tend to be very pricey. Far more have ability to have a GPS
connected. The differences in what is needed for a digital 406 burst
certainly are not optimal with a VHF com antenna. I don't expect a very
high percentage of 406 ELTs with embedded GPS, because AFAIK they all
have 4 figure price tags.
Only the builder can evaluate the type of flying planned and the optimal
location on the airframe. All evaluations have to consider that we
cannot predict the orientation of the airframe after the crash. I've
even seen one where the airframe was intact, occupants survived, while
the airframe was embedded at about a 45 degree angle into fairly hard
dirt on airport.
On 8/17/2018 4:58 AM, bob noffs wrote:
> thanks bob and everyone. i think everyone can say they learned something.
> for sure i will raise my elt so the base is at window level. my
> mounting area is easily accessable and changes to the bracket are not
> difficult. i think i will mount the antenna and contact the proper
> authorities before a test and see what it does!
> thanks again.
> bob noffs
>
> On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 4:40 AM Werner Schneider <glastar@gmx.net
> <mailto:glastar@gmx.net>> wrote:
>
> Hello Ken and Art,
>
> I can confirm the 406 does work, I had a friend of mine where the
> plane flipped over on an emergency landing
>
>
> His antenna was on the top before the fin
>
Message 5
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Our Rocket snapped the ELT antenna off at the base when it flipped upside
down after catching a fencepost. JRCC called the airport manager within
five minutes with the aircraft registration and position. Kinda spooky.
On Aug 17, 2018 00:22, "Stuart Hutchison" <stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au>
wrote:
Barry,
For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop the
400lb
engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that.
However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical stab
where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over. I have reviewed
numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty
good chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with
sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage. Even an
inverted whip is correctly oriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the
horizon) satellites to receive from a =98donut=99 radiation pat
tern. And, no
matter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, the
position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in
near real time. The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at
5W and randomised
around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of being received and
relayed by at least one satellite.
I don=99t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on th
is
forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of view,
I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time and
money. Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the
Australian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR
Officer and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the value
of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded GPS. Crashed aircraft are incredibly
difficult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles
a minute. Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for
example, you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B
output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and
becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan
can easily delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival
time. I can tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is very
distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few
hours. It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you
might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly where
to look. In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air
Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash. A small piece of media
misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was
overlooked. The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a
follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had
survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the
crash before succumbing to exposure.
It=99s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as a
viators
we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared. The mandate is
there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly, register and
maintain it it=99s definitely not worth risking your life t
o neglect the
ELT / PLB. And, carry a jumper :-) The priorities of survival are
Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fires etc),
Water, Food in that order. We can survive for three days without
water
and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that? I=99d rathe
r get
outta there.
Kind regards, Stu
On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier
between the ELT antenna and the sky.
Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab
wing tips being the best location.
Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless. They are usually in a
fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery. They are an FAA
Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locating
Transmitter).
Choose wisely Grasshopper,
Barry
Message 6
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At 08:32 AM 8/17/2018, you wrote:
>
>The debate is somewhat charged in the US because you have 121.5 ELTs
>that are still legal for install, as well as the 406 ELTs. The
>antenna needs are different. IMHO there is too much focus on
>aircraft either remaining upright, or flipping on their backs. While
>those may be the majority of cases. I've seen enough wrecks where it
>isn't the case...such as stall spin accidents, CFIT accidents. So
>position that is protected from external damage has some value, but
>is hard to predict.
A study of crash outcomes conducted some years
back concluded that ELTs mounted in the tail with
antennas forward of the vertical fin had a high
order probability of desired performance after
a crash.
Combined in the new digital geo-location features,
the 406Mhz GPS enhanced locator will be orders
of magnitude more successful than any 121.5/243
system.
The locator beacon as originally conceived and
placed into service was never envisioned for
general aviation application . . . it was a military
tool that served it's purpose well when the
theater of operations was limited and the
first responders were likely to be well equipped
with direction finding equipment.
The 121.5/243 devices were shoe-horned into GA
by well meaning folks who had never had find
a radio needle in a national park sized haystack.
But in spite of limitations, it was better than
nothing.
The big problem was that the better-than-nothing
system became embedded into a bureaucratic morass
that made it very difficult to upgrade as new
technologies emerged. General aviation is the last
bastion of amplitude modulated radios on the surface
of the planet! Our radios could be lighter, cheaper
and much more suited to task had we been freed of
the AM albatross decades ago.
Mount the 406 system in the tail, put the antenna just forward
of the vertical fin and you'll enjoy a high probability
of performance success should the need arise.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: elt antenna - Question for Bob |
=0A=0ABob,=0A=0AAbout "portable" 121.5/406 antennas....=0A=0AI
would like to construct a portable antenna that in the event of=0Asurvi
ving a mishap, one could remove the ELT, take outside to a=0Afavorable l
ocation, connect the portable antenna and have a better=0Achance of bein
g found earlier.=0A=0AI know this is a dual frequency design, but it
has been too long=0Asince I studied and made lower frequency antennas,
so I am asking if=0Ayou could suggest a construction design.=0A=0AI
believe the 406 part should be cut for 3/4 wavelength, but the=0Aloadin
g coil size and position for the 121.5 is vague. I am assuming=0Aabout 1
/3 up the whip so as to not interfere with the max. current=0Awave point
of the 406 signal.=0A=0AAlso, should the whip have a small circular
ground plane attached to=0Athe BNC connector on the base.?=0A=0AIf y
ou have ideas on this little antenna, I would very much like to=0Aview t
hem.... Dave=0A=0A-----------------------------------------From: "Stu
art Hutchison" =0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ACc: =0ASent: Fri
day August 17 2018 12:19:53AM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: elt ante
nna=0A=0A Barry, =0A For sure many aircraft finish upside down after
a sudden stop =0Athe 400lb engine up front of my tailwheel air
craft will almost=0Aguarantee that. However, I've installed the whip ant
enna just forward=0Aof the vertical stab where it should be reasonably p
rotected from a=0Atip over. I have reviewed numerous RV and Rocket wreck
s and think my=0AELT installation has a pretty good chance of remaining
operational,=0Aprovided I mount the coax with sufficient slack and flex
ibility to=0Awithstand a buckling fuselage. Even an inverted whip is cor
rectly=0Aoriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the horizon) satellit
es to=0Areceive from a =98donut=99 radiation pattern. And, n
o matter which=0ALocal User Terminal around the world receives the signa
l, the position=0Awill still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR res
ponse in near=0Areal time. The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds l
ong at 5W and=0Arandomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good
chance of=0Abeing received and relayed by at least one satellite. =0A
I don=99t mean to preach and there are a great many wise peopl
e on=0Athis forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's
point=0Aof view, I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT i
s a=0Awaste of time and money. Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tacti
cal=0ACoordinator for the Australian RCC, plus many more years as an=0AO
perations Officer, then SAR Officer and SAR instructor have proven=0Atim
e and time again to me the value of ELTs, especially 406 with=0Aembedded
GPS. Crashed aircraft are incredibly difficult to see from=0Athe air wh
en moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles a minute. Yes=0AADS-B is a g
reat starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for example,=0Ayou have an el
ectrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B=0Aoutput (smoke and f
umes or inflight fire that requires load shedding)=0Aand becomes a crash
situation, just a few minutes of cruising off=0Aflight plan can easily
delay location and rescue way past your=0Aovernight survival time. I ca
n tell you from first hand experience in=0Athe RCC that it is very distr
essing for rescuers to miss you by just a=0Afew hundred feet or a few ho
urs. It is even worse for the family left=0Abehind to realise that you m
ight have been alive long enough to rescue=0Aif we had known exactly whe
re to look. In fact, a former Senior Naval=0AOfficer at our School of Ai
r Navigation lost his son in a light=0Aaircraft crash. A small piece of
media misinformation meant a critical=0Apiece of search intelligence wa
s overlooked. The pilot and passenger=0Awere located some months later i
n a follow-on search funded by the=0Afather, only to find that his son h
ad survived with a broken leg for=0Awhat was believed to be a week after
the crash before succumbing to=0Aexposure. =0A It=99s a morb
id subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and=0Aas aviators we nee
d to be properly trained, equipped and prepared. The=0Amandate is there
for good reason, so we should install the ELT=0Acorrectly, register and
maintain it it=99s definitely not worth=0Arisking your
life to neglect the ELT / PLB. And, carry a jumper :-)=0AThe priorities
of survival are Protection (from the elements),=0ALocation (signalling
devices, fires etc), Water, Food in that=0Aorder. We can surv
ive for three days without water and 30 days without=0Afood, but who wou
ld want to do that? I=99d rather get outta there. =0A Kind re
gards, Stu =0A On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE wrote: =0A Ma
ny, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down. =0ASo top
mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off. =0AWhen an a
luminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier=0Abetween t
he ELT antenna and the sky. Wing Tips usually have the=0Aleast amount
of damage from a crash. And, they are usually the=0Afarest away from
the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab wing tips being the=0Abest location. Pe
rsonally I feel ELT's are one step above useless.=0AThey are usually in
a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead=0Abattery. They are an
FAA Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue=0Adevice. Consider a Pers
onal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT=0A(Personal Locating Transmitte
r). =0A Choose wisely Grasshopper, =0A =0A=0ALinks:=0A------=0A[1
] mailto:flyadive@gmail.com=0A
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: elt antenna - Question for Bob |
At 10:14 AM 8/17/2018, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>About "portable" 121.5/406 antennas....
>
>I would like to construct a portable antenna that in the event of
>surviving a mishap, one could remove the ELT, take outside to a
>favorable location, connect the portable antenna and have a better
>chance of being found earlier.
>
>I know this is a dual frequency design, but it has been too long
>since I studied and made lower frequency antennas, so I am asking if
>you could suggest a construction design.
>
>I believe the 406 part should be cut for 3/4 wavelength, but the
>loading coil size and position for the 121.5 is vague. I am
>assuming about 1/3 up the whip so as to not interfere with the max.
>current wave point of the 406 signal.
Emacs!
It would be interesting to get a lessons-learned dump from
an antenna expert . . . anyone else out there with additional
input?
I presume antennas like this one start with a 1/4 wave at
highest frequency of interest, add a loading/trap coil
at the top tailored to resonate at 406 with the parasitic
capacitance afforded by the radiators attached at each
end, then trim the top segment for best match at lowest
frequency of interest.
No doubt the resonance effects are interactive so it
would take some fiddling to optimize the design. Obviously,
an oversized 'hand held' is not an idealized ground plane
so should the optimizing studies be done using a rough
mock-up of the ELT's 'ground plane' signature.
I've got a new vector network analyzer that I've not
taken out of the box yet . . . too many irons in the
fire. But I'm hoping the tool will open some new windows
on my bag of tricks . . . the only thing I really miss
about my tenure at Beech was access to that RF lab!
>Also, should the whip have a small circular ground plane attached to
>the BNC connector on the base.?
>
>If you have ideas on this little antenna, I would very much like to
>view them.... Dave
I think that given the 'dire straits' of conditions
that would prompt hand-held operation, I'd build
a 406 quarter wave on a coax connector and call it
good. As others have pointed out here, the ability
of the 406 satellites to sniff out a weak signal
is really good. If you're out on the ground with
a 406 device in your hands, the 1/4 wave whip is
going to get the performance you need.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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My ELT (Kannad Integra) can be removed from the aircraft while continuing
to transmit.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/kannad_integra.php
On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 7:12 AM Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com> wrote:
> Our Rocket snapped the ELT antenna off at the base when it flipped upside
> down after catching a fencepost. JRCC called the airport manager within
> five minutes with the aircraft registration and position. Kinda spooky.
>
> On Aug 17, 2018 00:22, "Stuart Hutchison" <stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> Barry,
>
> For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop t
he 400lb
> engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that.
> However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical sta
b
> where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over. I have reviewed
> numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty
> good chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with
> sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage. Even
an
> inverted whip is correctly oriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the
> horizon) satellites to receive from a =98donut=99 radiation p
attern. And, no
> matter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, th
e
> position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in
> near real time. The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W
> and randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of
> being received and relayed by at least one satellite.
>
> I don=99t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on
this
> forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of view
,
> I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time a
nd
> money. Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the
> Australian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR
> Officer and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the valu
e
> of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded GPS. Crashed aircraft are incredib
ly
> difficult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical mil
es
> a minute. Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for
> example, you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B
> output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and
> becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan
> can easily delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival
> time. I can tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is ve
ry
> distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few
> hours. It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you
> might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly where
> to look. In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air
> Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash. A small piece of medi
a
> misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was
> overlooked. The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a
> follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had
> survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the
> crash before succumbing to exposure.
>
> It=99s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as
aviators
> we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared. The mandate is
> there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly, register a
nd
> maintain it it=99s definitely not worth risking your life
to neglect the
> ELT / PLB. And, carry a jumper :-) The priorities of survival are
> Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fires etc),
> Water, Food in that order. We can survive for three days witho
ut water
> and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that? I=99d rat
her get
> outta there.
>
> Kind regards, Stu
>
> On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
> So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
> When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier
> between the ELT antenna and the sky.
> Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
> And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab
> wing tips being the best location.
> Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless. They are usually in
a
> fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery. They are an FAA
> Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
> Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locatin
g
> Transmitter).
>
> Choose wisely Grasshopper,
>
> Barry
>
>
Message 10
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Somebody should write a magazine article about all of this...
On August 17, 2018 12:44:22 Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com> wrote:
> My ELT (Kannad Integra) can be removed from the aircraft while continuing
> to transmit.
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/kannad_integra.php
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 7:12 AM Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com> wrote:
> Our Rocket snapped the ELT antenna off at the base when it flipped upside
> down after catching a fencepost. JRCC called the airport manager within
> five minutes with the aircraft registration and position. Kinda spooky.
>
> On Aug 17, 2018 00:22, "Stuart Hutchison" <stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> Barry,
>
> For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop the 400lb
> engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that.
> However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical stab
> where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over. I have reviewed
> numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty
> good chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with
> sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage. Even an
> inverted whip is correctly orientedfor low altitude (i.e. closer to the
> horizon) satellites to receive from a donut radiation pattern. And, no
> matter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, the
> position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in
> near real time. The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W and
> randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of being
> received and relayed by at least one satellite.
>
>
> I dont mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on this
> forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of view,
> I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time and
> money. Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the
> Australian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR
> Officer and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the value
> of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded GPS. Crashed aircraft are incredibly
> difficult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles
> a minute. Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for
> example, you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B
> output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and
> becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan
> can easily delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival time.
> I can tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is very
> distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few
> hours. It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you
> might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly where
> to look. In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air
> Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash. A small piece of media
> misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was
> overlooked. The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a
> follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had
> survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the
> crash before succumbing to exposure.
>
>
> Its a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as aviators
> we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared. The mandate is
> there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly, register and
> maintain it its definitely not worth risking your life to neglect the
> ELT / PLB. And, carry a jumper :-) The priorities of survival are
> Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fires etc),
> Water, Food in that order. We can survive for three days without water
> and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that? Id rather get
> outta there.
>
>
> Kind regards, Stu
>
>> On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
>> So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
>> When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier
>> between the ELT antenna and the sky.
>> Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
>> And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab
>> wing tips being the best location.
>> Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless. They are usually in a
>> fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery. They are an FAA
>> Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
>> Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locating
>> Transmitter).
>>
>> Choose wisely Grasshopper,
>>
>> Barry
Message 11
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Hey Stu;-)
WOW! A 400 Lb engine!!!
What engine?
What plane?
Is your tail dragger made with an aluminum fuselage? If so then what about
the airframe blocking the signal. And as you said, the pattern would be at
a low angle.
BUT! No matter where you place the antenna there will always be a signal
blockage issue.
HEY! How about a Rocket Propelled ELT Unit? Actually 2 units - One on the
top one on the bottom and each unit will be rocket propelled to shoot out
100 Ft. Instead of running a coax the entire unit shoots Up into a Tree,
hooks on with treble fish hooks and transmit the signal.
I can guarantee the treble fish hook idea works!
Barry
On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 3:22 AM Stuart Hutchison <
stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au> wrote:
> Barry,
>
> For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop t
he 400lb
> engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that.
> However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical sta
b
> where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over. I have reviewed
> numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty
> good chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with
> sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage. Even
an
> inverted whip is correctly oriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the
> horizon) satellites to receive from a =98donut=99 radiation p
attern. And, no
> matter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, th
e
> position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in
> near real time. The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W
> and randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of
> being received and relayed by at least one satellite.
>
> I don=99t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on
this
> forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of view
,
> I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time a
nd
> money. Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the
> Australian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR
> Officer and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the valu
e
> of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded GPS. Crashed aircraft are incredib
ly
> difficult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical mil
es
> a minute. Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for
> example, you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B
> output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and
> becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan
> can easily delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival
> time. I can tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is ve
ry
> distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few
> hours. It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you
> might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly where
> to look. In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air
> Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash. A small piece of medi
a
> misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was
> overlooked. The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a
> follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had
> survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the
> crash before succumbing to exposure.
>
> It=99s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as
aviators
> we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared. The mandate is
> there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly, register a
nd
> maintain it it=99s definitely not worth risking your life
to neglect the
> ELT / PLB. And, carry a jumper :-) The priorities of survival are
> Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fires etc),
> Water, Food in that order. We can survive for three days witho
ut water
> and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that? I=99d rat
her get
> outta there.
>
> Kind regards, Stu
>
> On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
> So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
> When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier
> between the ELT antenna and the sky.
> Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
> And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab
> wing tips being the best location.
> Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless. They are usually in
a
> fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery. They are an FAA
> Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
> Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locatin
g
> Transmitter).
>
> Choose wisely Grasshopper,
>
> Barry
>
>
Message 12
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> Also, as a former principle RAAF SAR Officer (USCG and USAF trained), I should
add a few comments
>
> I have a non-GPS Kannad Compact ELT connected to this antenna, which has frangible
switches to activate automatically in a crash. I also have a GPS PLB, which
I can activate if I am still alive or become separated from the aircraft
(such as after ditching perhaps).
>
> Regards, Stu
Stu,
Would you recommend a specific GPS PLB?
Thanks,
Eric
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482495#482495
Message 13
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Barry
Do you still expect that somebody takes you seriously? =F0=9F=98=8E
Cheers
Carlos
Enviado do meu iPhone
No dia 17/08/2018, =C3-s 13:48, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> escreveu:
>
> Hey Stu;-)
>
> WOW! A 400 Lb engine!!!
> What engine?
> What plane?
>
> Is your tail dragger made with an aluminum fuselage? If so then what abou
t the airframe blocking the signal. And as you said, the pattern would be a
t a low angle.
> BUT! No matter where you place the antenna there will always be a signal b
lockage issue.
>
> HEY! How about a Rocket Propelled ELT Unit? Actually 2 units - One on th
e top one on the bottom and each unit will be rocket propelled to shoot out 1
00 Ft. Instead of running a coax the entire unit shoots Up into a Tree, hoo
ks on with treble fish hooks and transmit the signal.
>
> I can guarantee the treble fish hook idea works!
>
> Barry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 3:22 AM Stuart Hutchison <stuart@stuarthutchison.
com.au> wrote:
>> Barry,
>>
>> For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop t
he 400lb engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that
. However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical sta
b where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over. I have reviewed n
umerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty good
chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with sufficient s
lack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage. Even an inverted whi
p is correctly oriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the horizon) satell
ites to receive from a =98donut=99 radiation pattern. And, no m
atter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, the po
sition will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in near r
eal time. The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W and random
ised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of being received a
nd relayed by at least one satellite.
>>
>> I don=99t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on t
his forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of vie
w, I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time a
nd money. Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the A
ustralian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR Offic
er and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the value of ELT
s, especially 406 with embedded GPS. Crashed aircraft are incredibly diffic
ult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles a minu
te. Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for example,
you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B output (sm
oke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and becomes a cr
ash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan can easily del
ay location and rescue way past your overnight survival time. I can tell yo
u from first hand experience in the RCC that it is very distressing for resc
uers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few hours. It is even wors
e for the family left behind to realise that you might have been alive long e
nough to rescue if we had known exactly where to look. In fact, a former Se
nior Naval Officer at our School of Air Navigation lost his son in a light a
ircraft crash. A small piece of media misinformation meant a critical piece
of search intelligence was overlooked. The pilot and passenger were locate
d some months later in a follow-on search funded by the father, only to find
that his son had survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a w
eek after the crash before succumbing to exposure.
>>
>> It=99s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as
aviators we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared. The mandat
e is there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly, register
and maintain it it=99s definitely not worth risking your li
fe to neglect the ELT / PLB. And, carry a jumper :-) The priorities of sur
vival are Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fire
s etc), Water, Food in that order. We can survive for three days w
ithout water and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that? I
=99d rather get outta there.
>>
>> Kind regards, Stu
>>
>>> On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
>>> So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
>>> When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier be
tween the ELT antenna and the sky.
>>> Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
>>> And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab
wing tips being the best location.
>>> Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless. They are usually in
a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery. They are an FAA R
eg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
>>> Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locati
ng Transmitter).
>>>
>>> Choose wisely Grasshopper,
>>>
>>> Barry
>>
Message 14
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A Lycoming O-360 weighs about 260lbs; the IO-470F in the front of one of my airplanes
weighs 399lbs, according to the manufacturer.
>
> Hey Stu;-)
>
> WOW! A 400 Lb engine!!!
> What engine?
> What plane?
>
> Is your tail dragger made with an aluminum fuselage? If so then what about the
airframe blocking the signal. And as you said, the pattern would be at a low
angle.
> BUT! No matter where you place the antenna there will always be a signal blockage
issue.
>
> HEY! How about a Rocket Propelled ELT Unit? Actually 2 units - One on the top
one on the bottom and each unit will be rocket propelled to shoot out 100 Ft.
Instead of running a coax the entire unit shoots Up into a Tree, hooks on
with treble fish hooks and transmit the signal.
>
> I can guarantee the treble fish hook idea works!
>
> Barry
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 3:22 AM Stuart Hutchison <stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au>
wrote:
> Barry,
>
> For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop the 400lb engine
up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that. However, I've
installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical stab where it should
be reasonably protected from a tip over. I have reviewed numerous RV and Rocket
wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty good chance of remaining
operational, provided I mount the coax with sufficient slack and flexibility
to withstand a buckling fuselage. Even an inverted whip is correctly oriented
for low altitude (i.e. closer to the horizon) satellites to receive from a donut
radiation pattern. And, no matter which Local User Terminal around the world
receives the signal, the position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC
for SAR response in near real time. The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds
long at 5W and randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good
chance of being received and relayed by at least one satellite.
>
> I dont mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on this forum, but
respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of view, I couldn't
disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time and money. Years
of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the Australian RCC, plus
many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR Officer and SAR instructor
have proven time and time again to me the value of ELTs, especially 406 with
embedded GPS. Crashed aircraft are incredibly difficult to see from the air
when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles a minute. Yes ADS-B is a great
starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for example, you have an electrical issue
late one afternoon that stops ADS-B output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire
that requires load shedding) and becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes
of cruising off flight plan can easily delay location and rescue way past your
overnight survival time. I can tell you from first hand experience in the
RCC that it is very distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred
feet or a few hours. It is even worse for the family left behind to realise
that you might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly
where to look. In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air Navigation
lost his son in a light aircraft crash. A small piece of media misinformation
meant a critical piece of search intelligence was overlooked. The pilot
and passenger were located some months later in a follow-on search funded
by the father, only to find that his son had survived with a broken leg for what
was believed to be a week after the crash before succumbing to exposure.
>
> Its a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as aviators we
need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared. The mandate is there for
good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly, register and maintain it
its definitely not worth risking your life to neglect the ELT / PLB. And, carry
a jumper :-) The priorities of survival are Protection (from the elements),
Location (signalling devices, fires etc), Water, Food in that order. We can
survive for three days without water and 30 days without food, but who would
want to do that? Id rather get outta there.
>
> Kind regards, Stu
>
>> On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
>> So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
>> When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier between
the ELT antenna and the sky.
>> Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
>> And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab wing
tips being the best location.
>> Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless. They are usually in a fixed
location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery. They are an FAA Reg, not
a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
>> Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locating Transmitter).
>>
>> Choose wisely Grasshopper,
>>
>> Barry
>
Message 15
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|
The angle valve IO360 is 40 lbs heavier yet. Over the years this list has
been populated by a few loud mouthed " know it alls". If we wait a while
the current one will vanish as well
On Aug 17, 2018 14:02, "Alec Myers" <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote:
A Lycoming O-360 weighs about 260lbs; the IO-470F in the front of one of my
airplanes weighs 399lbs, according to the manufacturer.
>
> Hey Stu;-)
>
> WOW! A 400 Lb engine!!!
> What engine?
> What plane?
>
> Is your tail dragger made with an aluminum fuselage? If so then what
about the airframe blocking the signal. And as you said, the pattern would
be at a low angle.
> BUT! No matter where you place the antenna there will always be a signal
blockage issue.
>
> HEY! How about a Rocket Propelled ELT Unit? Actually 2 units - One on
the top one on the bottom and each unit will be rocket propelled to shoot
out 100 Ft. Instead of running a coax the entire unit shoots Up into a
Tree, hooks on with treble fish hooks and transmit the signal.
>
> I can guarantee the treble fish hook idea works!
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 3:22 AM Stuart Hutchison <
stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au> wrote:
> Barry,
>
> For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop t
he 400lb
engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that.
However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical stab
where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over. I have reviewed
numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty
good chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with
sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage. Even an
inverted whip is correctly oriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the
horizon) satellites to receive from a =98donut=99 radiation pat
tern. And, no
matter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, the
position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in
near real time. The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W and
randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of being
received and relayed by at !
least one satellite.
>
> I don=99t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on
this
forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of view,
I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time and
money. Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the
Australian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR
Officer and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the value
of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded GPS. Crashed aircraft are incredibly
difficult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles
a minute. Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for
example, you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B
output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and
becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan
can easily delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival
time. I can tell you from!
first hand experience in the RCC that it is very distressing for rescuers
to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few hours. It is even worse
for the family left behind to realise that you might have been alive long
enough to rescue if we had known exactly where to look. In fact, a former
Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air Navigation lost his son in a
light aircraft crash. A small piece of media misinformation meant a
critical piece of search intelligence was overlooked. The pilot and
passenger were located some months later in a follow-on search funded by
the father, only to find that his son had survived with a broken leg for
what was believed to be a week after the crash before succumbing to
exposure.
>
> It=99s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as
aviators we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared. The
mandate is there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly,
register and maintain it it=99s definitely not worth riskin
g your life to
neglect the ELT / PLB. And, carry a jumper :-) The priorities of survival
are Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fires
etc), Water, Food in that order. We can survive for three days w
ithout
water and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that? I=99d
rather
get outta there.
>
> Kind regards, Stu
>
>> On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
>> So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
>> When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier
between the ELT antenna and the sky.
>> Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
>> And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab
wing tips being the best location.
>> Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless. They are usually in
a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery. They are an FAA
Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
>> Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal
Locating Transmitter).
>>
>> Choose wisely Grasshopper,
>>
>> Barry
>
Message 16
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My thoughts as well.
On 8/17/2018 2:34 PM, don van santen wrote:
> The angle valve IO360 is 40 lbs heavier yet. Over the years this list
> has been populated by a few loud mouthed " know it alls". If we wait a
> while the current one will vanish as well
>
Message 17
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Carlos:
What don't you believe?
:-)
Barry
Choose wisely Grasshopper
On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 2:29 PM Carlos Trigo <trigo@mail.telepac.pt> wrote:
> Barry
>
> Do you still expect that somebody takes you seriously? =F0=9F=98=8E
>
> Cheers
> Carlos
>
> Enviado do meu iPhone
>
> No dia 17/08/2018, =C3-s 13:48, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> escreveu:
>
>
> Hey Stu;-)
>
> WOW! A 400 Lb engine!!!
> What engine?
> What plane?
>
> Is your tail dragger made with an aluminum fuselage? If so then what
> about the airframe blocking the signal. And as you said, the pattern wou
ld
> be at a low angle.
> BUT! No matter where you place the antenna there will always be a signal
> blockage issue.
>
> HEY! How about a Rocket Propelled ELT Unit? Actually 2 units - One on
> the top one on the bottom and each unit will be rocket propelled to shoot
> out 100 Ft. Instead of running a coax the entire unit shoots Up into a
> Tree, hooks on with treble fish hooks and transmit the signal.
>
> I can guarantee the treble fish hook idea works!
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 3:22 AM Stuart Hutchison <
> stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au> wrote:
>
>> Barry,
>>
>> For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop
the 400lb
>> engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that.
>> However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical st
ab
>> where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over. I have reviewe
d
>> numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty
>> good chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with
>> sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage. Even
an
>> inverted whip is correctly oriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the
>> horizon) satellites to receive from a =98donut=99 radiation
pattern. And, no
>> matter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, t
he
>> position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in
>> near real time. The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W
>> and randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of
>> being received and relayed by at least one satellite.
>>
>> I don=99t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on
this
>> forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of vie
w,
>> I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time
and
>> money. Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the
>> Australian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR
>> Officer and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the val
ue
>> of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded GPS. Crashed aircraft are incredi
bly
>> difficult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical mi
les
>> a minute. Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, fo
r
>> example, you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-
B
>> output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) an
d
>> becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight pla
n
>> can easily delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival
>> time. I can tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is v
ery
>> distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few
>> hours. It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you
>> might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly wher
e
>> to look. In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air
>> Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash. A small piece of med
ia
>> misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was
>> overlooked. The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a
>> follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had
>> survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the
>> crash before succumbing to exposure.
>>
>> It=99s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and a
s
>> aviators we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared. The
>> mandate is there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly
,
>> register and maintain it it=99s definitely not worth ris
king your life to
>> neglect the ELT / PLB. And, carry a jumper :-) The priorities of survi
val
>> are Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fires
>> etc), Water, Food in that order. We can survive for three day
s without
>> water and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that? I
=99d rather
>> get outta there.
>>
>> Kind regards, Stu
>>
>> On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
>> So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
>> When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier
>> between the ELT antenna and the sky.
>> Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
>> And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab
>> wing tips being the best location.
>> Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless. They are usually in
>> a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery. They are an FA
A
>> Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
>> Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal
>> Locating Transmitter).
>>
>> Choose wisely Grasshopper,
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>
>>
Message 18
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Hi Eric.
There are several good units on the market these days, provided you buy something
that has been through the rigours of COSPAS/SARSAT certification. My PLB is
a GME MT410G, which also has a strobe light, a Built-In-Test function and 7-year
battery replacement interval. Its due for a battery replacement now, but
Ill wait until I'm ready to resume flying. McMurdo Fast Find and ACR ResQLink+
are other good options, among others. Which ever you choose, a Personal Locator
Beacon (PLB) needs to 'come to hand readily at all times; so small size,
lightweight, embedded GPS and a strobe are my top priorities.
Stobes (flash tube or LED are both OK - both configured to last at least 24hrs)
are visible from very long distances at night, especially in remote or ocean
areas devoid of other light sources, and especially from SAR aircraft equipped
with Electro-Optic & Infra-Red (EOIR) sensors or individual Night Vision Devices
(NVD). I could see illegal boat people using a Cyalume stick from a very
long way off with NVD, so the value of a strobe shouldnt be underestimated. Equally,
one of the most effective search aids is a survival mirror. Theyre cheap,
small, lightweight and can be seen from about 20nm with the 'Mk1 eyeball'
on a fine sunny day. Both are a great way to cue a SAR platform to your exact
position from a long way off accelerating rescue.
There are also other great products like SPOT, SpiderTracks and Garmin (was Delorme)
InReach that typically use the Iridium network as personal or company tracking
devices. These are not COSPAS/SARSAT approved alternatives to ELT/PLB,
but do post position updates to the Internet at user-defined intervals and also
offer routine and emergency SMS functions. While these are excellent products
in their own right (and I will be using one when I cross the pond to NZ initially
and hopefully Oshkosh at some point), they can potentially add middle-men
to the SAR alerting equation. In an emergency I would turn all the lights
on so to speak ELT, PLB first, for near real time SAR alerting purposes, then
keep family and would be rescuers aware of your health and wellbeing via SMS
updates. Knowing help is on the way is also a huge survival motivator.
A humorous successful SAR situation I heard about was a guy in Canada whos PLB
GPS position kept changing. Turns out he was running flat out with two polar
bears in chase. He covered 11nm by the time the chopper arrived :-)
Kind regards, Stu
> On 18 Aug 2018, at 03:59, eschlanser <eschlanser@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>> Also, as a former principle RAAF SAR Officer (USCG and USAF trained), I should
add a few comments
>>
>> I have a non-GPS Kannad Compact ELT connected to this antenna, which has frangible
switches to activate automatically in a crash. I also have a GPS PLB,
which I can activate if I am still alive or become separated from the aircraft
(such as after ditching perhaps).
>>
>> Regards, Stu
>
>
> Stu,
>
> Would you recommend a specific GPS PLB?
>
> Thanks,
> Eric
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482495#482495
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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Yep.
IO-540-C4B5 (260hp) narrow deck parallel valve, the lightest of the
Lycoming 6-cylinder options at 404lbs stock. Angle value Lycoming
alternatives have a heavier crankcase and crankshaft to handle a higher
compression ratio, but make more power (300hp+)
F1 Rocket
Ally monocoque design, just like an RV.
There is also a long hub, 80lb, three-blade scimitar prop hanging off
the front trying to tip me over :-(
Upright the signal is essentially unencumbered. Inverted the antenna
can =98see=99 out to the horizon, about 120 degrees both
left and right of the fuselage as well as upwards to some degree,
depending on the post-crash state.
Unlike a GPS receiver needing unencumbered transmission paths to receive
a bunch of very weak signals from GNSS satellites in a fixable geometry;
an ELT punches out a 5W data burst that only needs to be received once,
by one satellite, to do its job. I think it will work just fine.
Stu
> On 18 Aug 2018, at 03:48, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hey Stu;-)
>
> WOW! A 400 Lb engine!!!
> What engine?
> What plane?
>
> Is your tail dragger made with an aluminum fuselage? If so then what
about the airframe blocking the signal. And as you said, the pattern
would be at a low angle.
> BUT! No matter where you place the antenna there will always be a
signal blockage issue.
>
> HEY! How about a Rocket Propelled ELT Unit? Actually 2 units - One
on the top one on the bottom and each unit will be rocket propelled to
shoot out 100 Ft. Instead of running a coax the entire unit shoots Up
into a Tree, hooks on with treble fish hooks and transmit the signal.
>
> I can guarantee the treble fish hook idea works!
>
> Barry
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 3:22 AM Stuart Hutchison
<stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au <mailto:stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au>>
wrote:
> Barry,
>
> For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop
the 400lb engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee
that. However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the
vertical stab where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over.
I have reviewed numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT
installation has a pretty good chance of remaining operational, provided
I mount the coax with sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a
buckling fuselage. Even an inverted whip is correctly oriented for low
altitude (i.e. closer to the horizon) satellites to receive from a
=98donut=99 radiation pattern. And, no matter which Local
User Terminal around the world receives the signal, the position will
still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in near real
time. The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W and
randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of being
received and relayed by at least one satellite.
>
> I don=99t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people
on this forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's
point of view, I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a
waste of time and money. Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical
Coordinator for the Australian RCC, plus many more years as an
Operations Officer, then SAR Officer and SAR instructor have proven time
and time again to me the value of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded
GPS. Crashed aircraft are incredibly difficult to see from the air when
moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles a minute. Yes ADS-B is a great
starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for example, you have an
electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B output (smoke and
fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and becomes a crash
situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan can easily
delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival time. I can
tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is very
distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few
hours. It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you
might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly
where to look. In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of
Air Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash. A small piece of
media misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was
overlooked. The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a
follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had
survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the
crash before succumbing to exposure.
>
> It=99s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and
as aviators we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared. The
mandate is there for good reason, so we should install the ELT
correctly, register and maintain it it=99s definitely
not worth risking your life to neglect the ELT / PLB. And, carry a
jumper :-) The priorities of survival are Protection (from the
elements), Location (signalling devices, fires etc), Water, Food
in that order. We can survive for three days without water and 30 days
without food, but who would want to do that? I=99d rather get
outta there.
>
> Kind regards, Stu
>
>> On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com
<mailto:flyadive@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
>> So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
>> When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier
between the ELT antenna and the sky.
>> Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
>> And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz
Stab wing tips being the best location.
>> Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless. They are usually
in a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery. They are an
FAA Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
>> Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal
Locating Transmitter).
>>
>> Choose wisely Grasshopper,
>>
>> Barry
>
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