AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Sun 08/26/18


Total Messages Posted: 9



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:07 AM - Auto Response: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators? (Todd Bristol)
     2. 06:15 AM - Re: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators? (Charlie England)
     3. 08:08 AM - Re: Auto Response: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators? (Tim Yoder)
     4. 08:12 AM - Re: Auto Response: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators? (Tim Yoder)
     5. 09:54 AM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 08/23/18 (Ernest Christley)
     6. 10:22 AM - Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators? (user9253)
     7. 12:50 PM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 08/23/18 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     8. 01:02 PM - Re: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     9. 04:22 PM - Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators? (user9253)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:07:13 AM PST US
    From: Todd Bristol <djtoddb@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and
    2 Alternators? Thank you for your email but I will be out of town with limited email and p hone access. =EF=BD I will return all my phone calls and emails after Au gust 30th.. =EF=BDIn case of emergencies, please contact Rodney at 480-2 17-5555. THANK YOU!


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:15:41 AM PST US
    From: Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators?
    On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 1:51 AM, supik <bionicad@hotmail.com> wrote: > > [quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]At 11:49 AM 8/23/2018, you wrote: > > > > > Unless you've been doing this for a long time, there's > > significant risk that 'simplifications' move your > > risk factors in the wrong direction. > > > > > > > > Bob . . . > > > Bob, that's the reason why I am asking here. I was looking at the Z > figures, but haven't found a combo I was looking for: > > 1 Main bat > 1 IBBS backup bat > 2 Alternators > > ..and the option that none of the Alts can be selected ON unless the Bat > is ON. With BAT ON, separate selection of Alternators shall be possible. > > thanks, > > -------- > Igor > > RV10 in progress > > If that's a big deal to you, how about using a double pole single throw master switch. One side supplies the ground path to energize the battery contactor, as shown in the Z drawings. The other side feeds DC power from the main bus to the two alternator control switches. Wit master on, either alt can be selected; with master off, neither can be powered. Charlie


    Message 3


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    Time: 08:08:37 AM PST US
    From: "Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>
    Subject: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT
    and 2 Alternators? What=99s a few more daysThanks Todd. From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Todd Bristol Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 12:07 AM Subject: Auto Response: AeroElectric-List: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators? Thank you for your email but I will be out of town with limited email and phone access. =EF=BD I will return all my phone calls and emails after August 30th.. =EF=BDIn case of emergencies, please contact Rodney at 480-217-5555. THANK YOU!


    Message 4


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    Time: 08:12:13 AM PST US
    From: "Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>
    Subject: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT
    and 2 Alternators? What=99s a few more days.Thanks Todd. How was the flight to Ryan? Any video? From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Todd Bristol Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 12:07 AM Subject: Auto Response: AeroElectric-List: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators? Thank you for your email but I will be out of town with limited email and phone access. =EF=BD I will return all my phone calls and emails after August 30th.. =EF=BDIn case of emergencies, please contact Rodney at 480-217-5555. THANK YOU!


    Message 5


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    Time: 09:54:56 AM PST US
    From: Ernest Christley <echristley@att.net>
    Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 08/23/18
    >> The Dynamo will not charge while taxiing and if you have any load at all your battery could be down when you try to leave. This has a been an accepted requirement since I've known of the Aeroelectri c list, but I've always questioned its importance.=C2- On the one hand we 're demanding the the battery be fully topped off at the departure end of t he runway, and on the other we demand that the battery be of sufficient cap acity to outlast the fuel in the tanks.=C2- If starting the engine deplet es the engine so much that the battery is crippled by it, the I ask the que stion, "Do you really want to fly a plane that either has an engine that do esn't want to start or one with a battery that is depleted by a normal star t?" If your low voltage light or other charge indicator doesn't show the charge r working during run-up are you going to take off anyway?=C2- If the indi cator shows the charger has gone south on climb out, didn't you plan for en ough battery to carry you to the destination anyway?=C2- Well, now the de stination should be the one directly below.=C2- If the plan was for the b attery to carry the electron pushing load for hours, why would the new "fly the few minutes of the pattern and land now" plan cause any concern even w ith the slight depletion due to starting? Is the concern better spent elsewhere? On Friday, August 24, 2018 2:47 PM, Bobby Paulk <bobbypaulk@comcast.net > wrote: et> Guys The Jabiru engine uses a Kubota RP201-53710 regulator. I got rid of the Dynamo and regulator and installed a 40 amp. alternator. The Dynamo will not charge while taxiing and if you have any load at all yo ur battery could be down when you try to leave. The new Honda ignition coil s are far better than the originals and will help with starting also. Bobby Jabiru 3300 302 hours Zenith 601 - S - WIKI - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.


    Message 6


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    Time: 10:22:23 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators?
    From: "user9253" <fransew@gmail.com>
    The battery should be connected whenever an alternator is operating because the battery stabilizes electrical system voltage. Without the battery, system voltage could vary plus or minus 1 volt or so. That voltage instability might cause the over-voltage protection device to activate. It is OK to mix and match features from several of the Z wiring diagrams. If you draw your own schematic with the features that you want, post it on this forum for peer review. An easy free program for drawing schematics is ExpressSCH. https://www.expresspcb.com/free-cad-software/ -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482702#482702


    Message 7


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    Time: 12:50:56 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 08/23/18
    At 11:54 AM 8/26/2018, you wrote: >> The Dynamo will not charge while taxiing and if you have any load at all your battery could be down when you try to leave. Which begs the question . . . by how much? Successful adoption of the e-bus philosophy requires a study of the ENERGY required to complete each phase of flight. This task is no different than the days before alternators. Generators produced very little or no useful output at taxi/idle speeds. Starting an engine should take no more than a couple percent of the battery's capacity. So after start up and pre-flighting all the electro-whizzies, one could drop to the e-bus for taxi out and hold for take off. Most of my experience was off small, uncontrolled fields where time from start up to take-off roll was on the order of 5 minutes or less. So yes, just how badly will your WELL MAINTAINED and PERIODICALLY CAP CHECKED battery be depleted before full engine driven power is available? All these things are known or easily discovered. It does require due diligence to run the numbers . . . but like weight and balance, it's rarely calculated again once the common configuration has been shown to meet design goals. If starting the engine depletes the engine so much that the battery is crippled by it . . . It doesn't. Cranking the engine has some high POWER demands but the starter is on of the lowest energy consumers on the airplane. Back before LEDs, a 3 hour flight with three navigation lights illuminated at 2A each was 14v x 6a x 3hr x 3600 sec/hr yields about 910,000 watt-seconds. The starter is 12v x 200a x 10sec for a paultry 24000 watt- seconds. An e-bus load of say 6a x 12v x 10min x 60 sec/min = 43200 watt-seconds. The battery sized and maintained to carry a 6a e-bus for 2 hours stores 12v x 6a x 2hr x 3600 sec/hr 518400 watt-seconds. So if you burn up 24000 + 43200 = 67200 watt-seconds getting airborne . . . you have only demanded 67200/518400 = 0.13 or 13% of your battery's total capacity. This is purely a hypothetical to illustrate the data needed to crunch your own numbers. Bottom line is that if that 1954 TriPacer in which I took dual instruction could do it, there is no reason you cannot craft a system and operating philosophy that lets you do as well or better in a Rotax powered Kitfox. If your low voltage light or other charge indicator doesn't show the charger working during run-up are you going to take off anyway? If the indicator shows the charger has gone south on climb out, didn't you plan for enough battery to carry you to the destination anyway? Well, now the destination should be the one directly below. If the plan was for the battery to carry the electron pushing load for hours, why would the new "fly the few minutes of the pattern and land now" plan cause any concern even with the slight depletion due to starting? Is the concern better spent elsewhere? Agreed . . . Bob . . .


    Message 8


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    Time: 01:02:32 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators?
    >Bob, that's the reason why I am asking here. I was looking at the Z >figures, but haven't found a combo I was looking for: > >1 Main bat >1 IBBS backup bat >2 Alternators > >..and the option that none of the Alts can be selected ON unless the >Bat is ON. With BAT ON, separate selection of Alternators shall be possible. Don't like to put control of so many electro-whizzies on one switch. Z-13/8 is one of several examples where you can loose functionality of any one component with a high order probability of comfortable termination of flight. What's the IBBS battery? What is it about battery reliability that drives you to believe that loosing the main battery is a untenable risk? Batteries ARE a bit of a pain . . . they are like potted plants. Given the same attention you would give to tire wear, belt wear, prop nicks, torque on wooden prop bolts, oil changes, plug maintenance, the battery is the single most reliable source of energy in the airplane. But like the house plant, abuse it beyond certain bounds just once can seriously degrade its integrity. If you have no plans for optimally maintaining the ship's main battery, then will a standby battery be treated any differently? Stacking two, poorly maintained batteries on top of each others only increases weight and doubles the chances that you're going to come up short on stored electrons due to flagging battery performance . . . a condition easily avoided. What is it about Z13/8 as published that gives you heart burn? Bob . . .


    Message 9


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    Time: 04:22:52 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators?
    From: "user9253" <fransew@gmail.com>
    IBBS is a small Lithium battery. http://www.tcwtech.com/ibbs_integrated_backup_battery_system_3ah_6ah.html -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482708#482708




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