Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:53 AM - Ground power question (Kent Ogden)
2. 11:57 AM - Re: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators? ()
3. 12:27 PM - Re: Ground power question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 12:36 PM - Standby batteries vs. alternators (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 02:17 PM - Fusible link question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 03:52 PM - Re: Standby batteries vs. alternators (Bill Watson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Ground power question |
I have added the ground power connector with overvoltage protection to my
RV-10 build per the instructions at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
As I look at the circuit, I wonder if the contactor will stay closed after
being energized if there is a charged battery. Why won't current flow
back through the contactor and keep the coil energized if the ground power
is removed, there's no rectifier to prevent that?
I don't have a battery in my plane yet so I haven't tested this out.
Kent
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators? |
Bob
The man behind the IBBS and all other TcwTech products is an RV-10 builder,
so perhaps he will chime in.
Carlos
De: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
<owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com> Em nome de Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Enviada: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 12:12 AM
Para: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Assunto: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2
Alternators?
At 06:22 PM 8/26/2018, you wrote:
<mailto:fransew@gmail.com> >
IBBS is a small Lithium battery.
http://www.tcwtech.com/ibbs_integrated_backup_battery_system_3ah_6ah.html
--------
Joe Gores
Okay, thanks. I just downloaded the patent on the
ibbs (8,189,305) along with 'related patents' citen
on their website. I wonder if the circuitry in their
patent truly represents the product . . . it's
REALLY busy! The patent is pretty long in the
tooth . . . and much simpler approaches
to a similar product are on the market.
Okay, installation instructions do include
YEARLY checks for continued air worthiness.
I presume one would check the chip's battery
at the same time . . . which means the operator
needs to develop his/her own airworthiness
verification protocols.
Igor, what size IBBS are you installing
and have you established your projected loads
and design goals for endurance?
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Ground power question |
At 01:51 PM 8/30/2018, you wrote:
>I have added the ground power connector with overvoltage protection
>to my RV-10 build per the instructions at
>
><http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
>
>As I look at the circuit, I wonder if the contactor will stay closed
>after being energized if there is a charged battery. Why won't
>current flow back through the contactor and keep the coil energized
>if the ground power is removed, there's no rectifier to prevent that?
>
>I don't have a battery in my plane yet so I haven't tested this out.
You are correct . . . which is why there is an
GND PWR annunciator light and crew controlled
switch.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Standby batteries vs. alternators |
At 01:55 PM 8/30/2018, you wrote:
>Bob
>
>The man behind the IBBS and all other TcwTech products is an RV-10
>builder, so perhaps he will chime in.
>
>Carlos
Understand. I've studied the patents and
product brochures. Aside from brown-out
protection, I'm still not seeing a cost/
benefit ratio in favor of 'standby' batteries
of this or any flavor.
They have a periodic maintenance burden that
lasts the lifetime of the airplane and
costs money to replace/refurbish when cells
reach end of life. Their energy content
is limited.
Z-13/8 offers a standby power source that
has no endurance limit. Low parts count.
No periodic maintenance. Unlike batteries
with a service life, the PM alternator should
run lifetime of the airplane. Weighs
less than a battery capable of supporting
8A of endurance load for three hours.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Fusible link question |
At 07:08 PM 8/29/2018, you wrote:
>Thanks. My load analysis has me below 20a at night vfr and also ifr.
>After some hot starts especially those that take longer than usual I
>have seen as high as 45a on my primary alt. Have flown this way for
>over 2 yrs. Do not see any real issues. Was just wondering why Bob
>picked 16awg instead of 14 on z12.
The 'rule of thumb . . . or wire" for fusible
links suggest a link conductor 4AWG or more smaller
than the protected line. To me sure, a 10AWG wire
would enjoy protection with 14AWG link . . . but
at 20A, the 16AWG wire isn't breaking a sweat either.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Standby batteries vs. alternators |
I may be able to add something here. I have a straight by the book Z-14
(2 Batts, 2 Alts) in my RV10 along with (3) GRT HX EFIS units. I've
been flying it for 7 years and 1,050 hours. Given that the Z-14 is
probably overkill for such a ship (Bob, I think you've referred to it
as 'everything including the kitchen sink'), it should be no surprise
that it seems bullet proof to me. But I go into IFR night missions with
a great deal of confidence in my 2-mag fired IO-540 and a dual buss
electrical system. I fly the out islands of the Bahamas confident that
I can get back or at least to a repair shop with any sort of single
electrical failure. I like it a lot.
However, some specific details of my RV-10 configuration and some
evolving characteristics of the GRT HX EFISs have presented me with some
challenges that have made the Z-14 particularly valuable. And while I
don't have an IBBS, I would suggest that TCW's IPS (Intelligent Power
Stabilizer) may have some value in a GRT EFIS installation.
Why theIPS <http://www.tcwtech.com/IPS-12v.htm>? The GRTs do not
incorporate any kind of power on/off switch and I chose not to add any.
Every and all instruments are displayed on any of the (3) units so it is
reasonable to think of the plane as not operational unless they are lit
up. The (3) I have installed represent a significant (unmeasured) load
and they are susceptible to brown-outs (aka re-boots or IPLs) during
engine start with the (2) Odyssey 680s I have mounted behind the baggage
compartment. The IPS has completely eliminated brown-outs with the added
benefit that it is not a 3rd battery requiring ongoing maintenance. I
would recommend this over the IBBS for an RV10 with multiple GRTs
suffering from brown-outs. More specifically I think one big battery, 2
alternators and an IPS may make a lot of sense for an RV10 with multiple
GRTs.
Some background on my RV10 configuration:
* I killed a couple of Odyssey 680 batteries during the first couple
of years. The reason was 2-fold; 1) I was charging the batteries at
too low a voltage (<14volts) and 2) the GRTs put a small load from
an internal clock on one battery when powered off. A contributing
factor included the inaccessible location of my B&C regulators
discouraged me from adjusting the charging voltage. Later the
internal clock was disconnected and replaced by a GPS clock signal.
I finally got to the regulators with a custom built screwdriver and
started charging the batts at max charging voltage - 14.7 volts
(read the spec sheet - it's accurate).
* Engine starts with both batteries tended to cause GRT re-boots.
Early on, it seems that interrupted IPLs corrupted 2 of my GRT units
according to the factory. It appears that they made some changes to
prevent the corruption and this problem has not reoccurred in the
last 5 years. These re-boots reduced me to watching the oil
pressure warning ligh during starts. Since I had the starter and
the GRTs on different buses, I began to do single battery starts but
they always felt marginal at best. An underlying problem turned out
to be the lightweight starter that was the default unit for RV10
IO-540s thru Vans. I finally replaced the starter with the standard
model and starts are now consistently solid even though the engine
turns over more slowly.
* The enhanced kitchen sink (EKS) system proved it's worth a couple of
weeks ago departing out of Farmingdale Republic Airport in Long
Island. I got the expected 5 waypoint/2 airway clearance for
departure to the west. I dutifully loaded the whole thing into
Foreflight for decoding the airway waypoints. Then loaded the
flight plan into the Garmin 430. Normally I would have put the first
few points in confident that things would change as the flight
progressed but conditions encouraged me to keep the workload aloft
to a minimum. By the time I got it all set up and taxiid out, a
storm cell formed out of the blue directly overhead causing me to go
back to the tie down to wait it out.
Here's where the 2 batts come in handy. I confidently left the G430
and the (3) GRT EFISs lit up though I dimmed the screens for energy
conservation. Close to an hour later I returned, cross fed the 2
buses, started up and asked for an update on my clearance. "If you
still have the old one, use it, cleared to runway xx". It didn't
matter much, I was held for release for over 20 minutes until I
finally requested a VFR departure with the intent to pickup my IFR
in the air. Not so coincidentally I was cleared for the original
plan before 200' feet off the ground. NYC controllers respond best
to a beep of the horn.
Bill "Considering installation of a Z.30-06 for the deer population on
our runway" Watson
On 8/30/2018 3:36 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 01:55 PM 8/30/2018, you wrote:
>> Bob
>>
>> The man behind the IBBS and all other TcwTech products is an RV-10
>> builder, so perhaps he will chime in.
>>
>> Carlos
>
> Understand. I've studied the patents and
> product brochures. Aside from brown-out
> protection, I'm still not seeing a cost/
> benefit ratio in favor of 'standby' batteries
> of this or any flavor.
>
> They have a periodic maintenance burden that
> lasts the lifetime of the airplane and
> costs money to replace/refurbish when cells
> reach end of life. Their energy content
> is limited.
>
> Z-13/8 offers a standby power source that
> has no endurance limit. Low parts count.
> No periodic maintenance. Unlike batteries
> with a service life, the PM alternator should
> run lifetime of the airplane. Weighs
> less than a battery capable of supporting
> 8A of endurance load for three hours.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
---
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