Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:40 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Charging System (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 01:10 PM - Battery Minder connector (donjohnston)
3. 02:33 PM - FW: Re: About Battery Maintainers. . . . (skywagon@charter.net)
4. 03:04 PM - Re: Re: Rotax Charging System (Charlie England)
5. 03:10 PM - Re: Re: IVO current limiter project (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 03:16 PM - Re: FW: Re: About Battery Maintainers. . . . (C&K)
7. 04:44 PM - Re: Re: IVO current limiter project (Todd Bartrim)
8. 05:53 PM - Re: Re: IVO current limiter project (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 08:25 PM - Re: Re: Rotax Charging System (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 08:40 PM - Re: Battery Minder connector (ashleysc@broadstripe.net)
11. 09:27 PM - Safety For Electrical System Workers Essay (johnmathew)
12. 10:35 PM - Re: Re: IVO current limiter project (Todd Bartrim)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Charging System |
At 11:56 PM 9/13/2018, you wrote:
>
>I don't believe I've ever seen a definitive answer to the question
>of what the exact purpose of the 22,000 mfd capacitor is in the 912
>charging circuit. Can anyone answer that question? I apologize if
>the answer is buried somewhere in the archives of this forum, and I
>just haven't searched far enough to find it.
These capacitors have been included as part
of many PM alternator systems with rectifier/regulators
for a long time. Never got to talk with an original
designer but the general consensus amongst those who
have offered opinions is that it 'reduces noise' and/or
'aids alternator-only operations'.
Limited testing I've conducted on smaller systems
(10 amp) showed no benefit with respect to noise
levels on the bus . . . DC busses in vehicles are
generally very noisy anyhow and everyone worth his
salt as an appliance designer will know how to
'live with it'.
Here's a family of plots I took on an SD8 alterantor
on B&C's drive stand about 15 years ago:
https://tinyurl.com/cz7ekrf
Page 1 is a picture of a fully loaded SD8 with
capacitor installed. Measured noise in the low
frequency spectrum was about 250 millivolts peak
to peak, 77 mV RMS.
Page 2 shows what happens when the capacitor is
removed . . . 760 mV pk-pk and 72 mV RMS.
In other words, no significant change. Alternator
noise on the bus in an airplane with a wound field
is MUCH higher and broader spectrum . . . but still
nothing that your electro-whizzies should care about.
I fiddled with some no battery ops too on pages 7, 8 and
9 . . . but didn't see how it performed with no capacitor.
I'm thinking that planning for no battery ops is a
capitulation to poor battery maintenance practices
and/or errors of conducting FMEA in deciding architecture.
Short answer is I don't think the capacitor adds
any useful benefit. If anyone runs across some testing
data that contradicts these findings, I'd be delighted
to know about it.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | Battery Minder connector |
I have a Battery Minder with the connector provided. I would like to change to
something I can mount to the airframe that will allow connecting with one hand.
Anyone have any suggestions?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483241#483241
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rta_2415_2_227.jpg
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: About Battery Maintainers. . . . |
=0A=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: About Battery Maintainers. . . .
=0A=0A The question about changing the charging clamps/jacks. . . .=0A
That style of maintainer delivers very low current to do the=0Ajob.
You could remove the provided "clamp" connectors and attach=0Asome th
ing as simple as the old style RCA jack. Really anything that=0Ayou have
handy. If the unit supplied large currents, you would have to=0Abe more
selective. =0A Keep in mind a couple of things with most styles of
maintainers. =0A1. They usually need to connected to the battery befor
e connecting to=0A120vac. 2. If the unit is connected to the battery,
but, the 120 vac=0Ais disconnected or lost do to a power line failure,
the battery will=0Aslowly discharge back thru the circuitry of the main
tainer. This can=0Aalso happen when the unit is connected to 120 vac tha
t is fed by a GFI=0Acontrolled ac line. If the GFI is tripped/opens that
line by some=0Aincident, and you are not there to disconnect the mainta
iner, the=0Abattery will slowly be discharged. Maybe some of the units
have a=0Areversed diode in the charge line now, but, the charging/float
circuit=0Awould have to be adjusted to compensate for diodes forward lo
ss.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Charging System |
On 9/17/2018 1:39 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 11:56 PM 9/13/2018, you wrote:
>>
>> I don't believe I've ever seen a definitive answer to the question of
>> what the exact purpose of the 22,000 mfd capacitor is in the 912
>> charging circuit. Can anyone answer that question? I apologize if
>> the answer is buried somewhere in the archives of this forum, and I
>> just haven't searched far enough to find it.
>
> These capacitors have been included as part
> of many PM alternator systems with rectifier/regulators
> for a long time. Never got to talk with an original
> designer but the general consensus amongst those who
> have offered opinions is that it 'reduces noise' and/or
> 'aids alternator-only operations'.
>
> Limited testing I've conducted on smaller systems
> (10 amp) showed no benefit with respect to noise
> levels on the bus . . . DC busses in vehicles are
> generally very noisy anyhow and everyone worth his
> salt as an appliance designer will know how to
> 'live with it'.
>
> Here's a family of plots I took on an SD8 alterantor
> on B&C's drive stand about 15 years ago:
>
> https://tinyurl.com/cz7ekrf <https://tinyurl.com/cz7ekrf>
>
> Page 1 is a picture of a fully loaded SD8 with
> capacitor installed. Measured noise in the low
> frequency spectrum was about 250 millivolts peak
> to peak, 77 mV RMS.
>
> Page 2 shows what happens when the capacitor is
> removed . . . 760 mV pk-pk and 72 mV RMS.
>
> In other words, no significant change. Alternator
> noise on the bus in an airplane with a wound field
> is MUCH higher and broader spectrum . . . but still
> nothing that your electro-whizzies should care about.
>
> I fiddled with some no battery ops too on pages 7, 8 and
> 9 . . . but didn't see how it performed with no capacitor.
> I'm thinking that planning for no battery ops is a
> capitulation to poor battery maintenance practices
> and/or errors of conducting FMEA in deciding architecture.
>
> Short answer is I don't think the capacitor adds
> any useful benefit. If anyone runs across some testing
> data that contradicts these findings, I'd be delighted
> to know about it.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
I wonder if that capacitor is an artifact from back when PM alternators
were operated in vehicles that were designed with no battery. Not unlike
the avionics master as a holdover from the prehistoric germanium
semiconductor days.
Charlie
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: IVO current limiter project |
At 09:44 AM 9/14/2018, you wrote:
>
>The builder who used this project on his plane posted that it worked
>very well.
>Read Dennis' post near the bottom of this thread:
>http://www.matronics.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=470854&sid=213ec347d8eaec8f1c56ef0d4cf417c8
>
>
>I have purchased PCB boards from elecrow.com at low prices compared
>to local PCB houses. The disadvantage is that it takes up a month
>to get the boards.
>
>A low cost option is to use a magnetic reed switch instead of the
>circuit board. Wrap a reed switch with several turns of wire. Put
>that wire in series with the motor. When the motor current is high,
>the reed switch will close and turn on an indicator light.
>
>--------
>Joe Gores
I'm a bit confused about the status of this project.
I seem to recall having laid out boards, stuffing
a prototype and handing the proof-of-concept board
off to someone to be programmed.
Emacs!
Emacs!
I dug around here looking for the project-bin but could not
immediately put my hands on it.
Did this fall down a crack somewhere . . . and is the crack
in my shop?
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: About Battery Maintainers. . . . |
I used to not pay much attention to the connection sequence but it seems
that connecting some of these small chargers to the battery before
plugging in to the mains is actually good advice. I have several 1.5
amp Schumacker 1562 charger maintainers of varying vintages that can
put out surprisingly high voltage 120 hz pulses when not connected to a
battery. Discovered that while investigating why a very cheap digital
ammeter supposedly good for 30 volts got fried. Again no issue at all if
the battery is connected before plugging in to the mains.
The units I have are all controlled by a microprocessor but they are all
over the map in terms of how much 14.5 volt charging they will do before
switching to the 13.4 volt nominal maintaining mode and none of them
have any internal adjustments to tweak.
Ken
On 17/09/2018 5:32 PM, skywagon@charter.net wrote:
>
>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: About Battery Maintainers. . . .
>
> The question about changing the charging clamps/jacks. . . .
>
> That style of maintainer delivers very low current to do the job.
> You could remove the provided "clamp" connectors and attach some
> thing as simple as the old style RCA jack. Really anything that
> you have handy. If the unit supplied large currents, you would
> have to be more selective.
>
> Keep in mind a couple of things withmost styles of maintainers.
> 1. They usually need to connected to the battery before connecting
> to 120vac.
> 2.If the unit is connected to the battery, but, the 120 vac is
> disconnected or lost do to a power line failure, the battery will
> slowly discharge back thru the circuitry of the maintainer. This
> can alsohappen when the unit is connected to 120 vac that is fed
> by a GFI controlled ac line. If the GFI is tripped/opens that
> line by some incident, and you are not there to disconnect the
> maintainer, the battery will slowly be discharged.
> Maybe some of the units have a reversed diode in the charge line
> now, but, the charging/float circuit would have to be adjusted to
> compensate for diodes forward loss.
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: IVO current limiter project |
Hi Bob;
I'm hoping that the code was complete and boards were proven to be
correct as I've put in an order for a board (minimum 3 and it appears that
each board had 2 designed into it, so 6 boards) and ordered enough
components from Digi-Key to populate all 6.
I've also ordered a PICkit3 programmer to program the PIC.
First I ordered the PICkit1 from eBay as the notes indicated that was
used as the programmer then I immediately realized that it was an obsolete
programmer from the 90's but seller wouldn't cancel the order, so I still
ordered the new PICkit3 and will use the other one as a paperweight to
remind me why Amazon is better than eBay.
Anyways, I expect boards, components and programmer to be here within a
week and we'll see how it all comes together.
I'd be happy to split up the rest of the boards and components (programmed
with the code of coarse) for anyone who wants one.
Todd
C-FSTB
RV9
On Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 15:16 Robert L. Nuckolls, III, <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 09:44 AM 9/14/2018, you wrote:
>
>
> The builder who used this project on his plane posted that it worked very
> well.
> Read Dennis' post near the bottom of this thread:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=470854&sid=213ec347d8eaec8f1c56ef0d4cf417c8
>
> I have purchased PCB boards from elecrow.com at low prices compared to
> local PCB houses. The disadvantage is that it takes up a month to get the
> boards.
>
> A low cost option is to use a magnetic reed switch instead of the circuit
> board. Wrap a reed switch with several turns of wire. Put that wire in
> series with the motor. When the motor current is high, the reed switch
> will close and turn on an indicator light.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> I'm a bit confused about the status of this project.
> I seem to recall having laid out boards, stuffing
> a prototype and handing the proof-of-concept board
> off to someone to be programmed.
>
> [image: Emacs!]
>
>
> [image: Emacs!]
>
> I dug around here looking for the project-bin but could not
> immediately put my hands on it.
>
> Did this fall down a crack somewhere . . . and is the crack
> in my shop?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: IVO current limiter project |
At 06:43 PM 9/17/2018, you wrote:
>Hi Bob;
>=C2 I'm hoping that the code was complete and
>boards were proven to be correct as I've put in
>an order for a board (minimum 3 and it appears
>that each board had 2 designed into it, so 6
>boards) and ordered enough components from Digi-Key to populate all 6.=C2
>I've also ordered a PICkit3 programmer to program the PIC.
>=C2 First I ordered the PICkit1 from eBay as the
>notes indicated that was used as the programmer
>then I immediately realized that it was an
>obsolete programmer from the 90's but seller
>wouldn't cancel the order, so I still ordered
>the new PICkit3 and will use the other one as a
>paperweight to remind me why Amazon is better than eBay.
>=C2 Anyways, I expect boards, components and
>programmer to be here within a week and we'll see how it all comes
together.
>I'd be happy to split up the rest of the boards
>and components (programmed with the code of coarse) for anyone who wants
one.
Was this an extension of the approach
I published or a parallel effort?
I was thinking I'd handed off the schematic,
BOM and a quantity of boards off for
further development but that was too
many projects ago and I've lost track
of the details.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Charging System |
>I wonder if that capacitor is an artifact from back when PM
>alternators were operated in vehicles that were designed with no
>battery. Not unlike the avionics master as a holdover from the
>prehistoric germanium semiconductor days.
>
>Charlie
An excellent hypothesis . . . but it seems
it equally likely that somebody looked at that
full wave rectifier downstream of an AC
source and thought, "Gee, every circuit like
that in the past has had a capacitor across
the output . . . shucks . . . why not?"
It's deceptively easy to buy into conventional
wisdom. I was firmly in the camp followers for
'the battery is your ship's best power filter.' I
used to preach the doctrine myself. Then one
day, I had to write a test report some sample
batteries and the requester asked me to see if
the samples were any 'better filters' than
the products we were buying.
No big deal . . . but the data gathered was
a big deal. Totally blew the old saw into
itty-bitty pieces. Intuitively, we all KNEW
that batteries didn't take on serious charge
below 13.5 nor would the deliver serious
energy above 12.5. so what happens in that
fuzzy area . . . very little.
I was pretty stunned with that realization . . .
and embarrassed that a MIL-STD-704 knowledge-nugget
I'd worked with for decades was telling me the same
thing . . .
Emacs!
Noise levels to be EXPECTED in a normally operating
28VDC system over the range of 1000 to 5000 Hz were
1.0VRMS or 2.8V pk-pk . . . with fall-offs at
each end. In other words, as a normal state of
affairs, pk-pk noise can be as much as 10% of
system voltages.
We know that batteries stand off LARGE perturbations
above 13.5 and below 12.5 but that would hardly
qualify as a 'filtering' function.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Battery Minder connector |
Hi Don;
I have the same connector. I cut an oval hole in the fuselage just ahead of the
firewall, but just behind the cowling. I let the connector protrude outside slightly.
I held it in place with an aluminum bracket that squeezes the connector
body. The bracket is J-shaped with two holes. One hole is 5/32" for a rivet.
The other is 3/16" for a #10-32 bolt that goes through two thicknesses of aluminum
at the U-shaped end. Both fasteners go through the firewall. The bolt squeezes
the connector and holds it firmly in place.
Cheers! Stu.
----- Original Message -----
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 1:10:06 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery Minder connector
I have a Battery Minder with the connector provided. I would like to change to
something I can mount to the airframe that will allow connecting with one hand.
Anyone have any suggestions?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483241#483241
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rta_2415_2_227.jpg
Message 11
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| Subject: | Safety For Electrical System Workers Essay |
Safety within the place of job is process number one for organization and employee
alike. It is particularly critical for individuals who installation and carrier
electrical systems. Nothing can update a worker or loved one that has died
or suffered the irreparable outcomes of an electrical accident. No rely how
much an agency attempts to guard its people or how a lot protection schooling
is supplied; the final responsibility lies with the employee. The human factor
is a part of each twist of fate or injury. The cause of best paper writing services
(https://usawriters.org) is to become aware of electrical protection hazards
and gift approaches to decrease or keep away from their results. It is
a guide for improving electrical protection and includes information about governmental
rules, industry-ordinary standards and work practices. It provides methods
to meet the standards and decrease the dangers
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483256#483256
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: IVO current limiter project |
Hi Bob;
This is the project that was ongoing for several years on this list but
abruptly ended in July 2017. I was following the discussion with interest,
but other responsibilities at the time left me unable to get involved.
As I recently returned to flight again, I quickly remembered why I thought
this was a much needed improvement for the IVO prop. So I read through the
archives and studied the material you have posted at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9023/
I did post a message here a few days back inquiring about the status of the
project, before I ordered the parts to build one (or 6), so I'm now
somewhat financially committed to at least trying to stand on your
shoulders and complete this project. The info posted at the link on your
site seems to be complete and the last posting about it didn't declare it
to be successfully finished but that Beta-testing was about to begin, then
nothing further.
So I guess I'm going to be a beta-tester?
Todd
C-FSTB
Todd Bartrim
On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 5:53 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 06:43 PM 9/17/2018, you wrote:
>
> Hi Bob;
> =C3=82 I'm hoping that the code was complete and boards were proven to b
e
> correct as I've put in an order for a board (minimum 3 and it appears tha
t
> each board had 2 designed into it, so 6 boards) and ordered enough
> components from Digi-Key to populate all 6.=C3=82
> I've also ordered a PICkit3 programmer to program the PIC.
> =C3=82 First I ordered the PICkit1 from eBay as the notes indicated that
was
> used as the programmer then I immediately realized that it was an obsolet
e
> programmer from the 90's but seller wouldn't cancel the order, so I still
> ordered the new PICkit3 and will use the other one as a paperweight to
> remind me why Amazon is better than eBay.
> =C3=82 Anyways, I expect boards, components and programmer to be here wi
thin a
> week and we'll see how it all comes together.
> I'd be happy to split up the rest of the boards and components (programme
d
> with the code of coarse) for anyone who wants one.
>
>
> Was this an extension of the approach
> I published or a parallel effort?
> I was thinking I'd handed off the schematic,
> BOM and a quantity of boards off for
> further development but that was too
> many projects ago and I've lost track
> of the details.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
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