Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:08 AM - Re: B lead circuit breaker (Ron Burnett)
2. 10:44 AM - Re: B lead circuit breaker (user9253)
3. 10:54 AM - Re: B lead circuit breaker (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: A brown-out alternative? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 11:26 AM - Re: B lead circuit breaker (Ken Ryan)
6. 11:50 AM - Re: Re: A brown-out alternative? (Art Zemon)
7. 01:18 PM - Re: Re: A brown-out alternative? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 02:22 PM - Re: Re: A brown-out alternative? (Neil Parkinson)
9. 03:35 PM - Re: Re: A brown-out alternative? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 03:53 PM - Re: Re: A brown-out alternative? (Neil Parkinson)
11. 04:14 PM - Re: B lead circuit breaker (user9253)
12. 04:28 PM - Re: A brown-out alternative? (user9253)
13. 05:27 PM - Re: Re: B lead circuit breaker (Ken Ryan)
14. 06:14 PM - Re: Re: B lead circuit breaker (Charlie England)
15. 06:34 PM - Re: B lead circuit breaker (Ron Burnett)
16. 07:22 PM - Re: B lead circuit breaker (user9253)
17. 08:59 PM - Re: house/hangar in MS $235K (wynaire)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: B lead circuit breaker |
Bob,
The B lead is 5 amps and I will check but I believe I have a 60 amp alternat
or. I have a dual EFII ignition that normally runs 12.5 amps without strobes
and wig wags which are the old Van=99s style bulbs which about double
it with both on.
Ron Burnett
RV-6A O360
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 8, 2018, at 10:36 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroele
ctric.com> wrote:
>
> At 08:18 PM 10/8/2018, you wrote:
net>
>>
>> I have a Plane Power Alternator on my RV-6A and lately with the Aero Flas
h strobes on at some point the B lead CB will pop. It does reset. Today I
flew a 2 leg cross country for 4 hours total, all with the strobes off afte
r the popping event 2 minutes into the flight. How would I determine if thei
r is a problem with the strobes that might cause this problem?
>>
>> Thanks for any hints.
>>
>> Ron Burnett
>
> What size is your alternator. What size is
> your B-lead breaker.
>
>
> Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: B lead circuit breaker |
Usually the "B" lead refers to the heavy wire that carries the alternator output
current. At 5 amps, you must be talking about a different circuit. Regardless,
check the circuit breaker connections to be sure that they are secure.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483729#483729
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: B lead circuit breaker |
At 09:27 AM 10/9/2018, you wrote:
>Bob,
>The B lead is 5 amps and I will check but I
>believe I have a 60 amp alternator. I have a
>dual EFII ignition that normally runs 12.5 amps
>without strobes and wig wags which are the old
>Van=99s style bulbs which about double it with both on.
Okay, that's not the b-lead protection . . . it's
the field supply breaker which, if memory serves,
is upstream of their crowbar ov protection system.
If that breaker is nuisance tripping, then it's
likely the result of (1) poor ov sensor design that's
making it 'twitchy' and/or (2) some stimulus in the
system is causing the minor equivalent of a
load-dump overshoot from the regulator.
Does the tripping go away with the strobes off?
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: A brown-out alternative? |
At 12:55 AM 10/9/2018, you wrote:
>
>
>nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> > I mentioned a few days ago that I thought I had yet another
> solution to the perennial brown-out gremlin.
> >
> > [SNIP]
> >
> > Cogent arguments pro and con are most welcome.
>
>
>Clever idea, Bob -- I like it!
>
>As Charlie mentioned, the current drawn by the DC-DC boost converter
>could be significant, and would of course increase with decreasing
>supply voltage. There's also the likelihood of substantial inrush
>current at start-up. Unless an adequately beefy start switch is
>specified, its contacts might suffer from making and breaking this load.
not really a hard-over concern. at 100 flight
cycles per year max, even a marginally 'over taxed'
switch would have a good service life.
Inrush to the dc/dc converter itself wouldn't
be bad either. Remember, the converter is simply
shouldering a load that is already powered up.
>This problem might be mitigated by powering the DC-DC boost
>converter either from the load side of the starter contactor (in
>parallel with the starter) or via a cube-type automotive
>relay. This would also simplify adding this design as a retrofit,
>since the start switch wiring/CB/fuse would not have to be upgraded
>to carry the boost converter's supply current.
I wired it as shown so that in the milliseconds after
start switch closure until the contactor closes, the
converter has time to come up and shoulder the load.
Another feature to be explored is drop out delay in
the starter contactor caused by slow decay of coil
current through the catch diode. When the start
button is release, boost drive goes away.
The start button is held until the engine catches
and starter current drops dramatically. Hopefully
battery voltage will have returned to a value that
supports appliances vulnerable to CBOT.
Somebody mentioned a potential avionics load of 6A?
In the standby (non transmitting mode)? Obviously
a detailed load analysis is indicated.
I am pondering some other power switching protocols with
a goal of seamless integration into the z-figures. But
if puss came to shove, one could simply add an "E-BUS BOOST"
switch that is turned on before engine start and turned
off afterward.
I have one of these for testing https://tinyurl.com/ybqnl8fj
I would set this critter to 15 volts with a 0.7 volt diode
drop to give an e-bus boost of 14.3 volts or thereabouts.
This would be about 2 volts higher than the open circuit
on an SVLA battery.
I'll measure it's ramp up time to make sure it will shoulder
the e-bus in the time it takes for a starter contactor
to close. Don't wait on me for this tho. I'm hip deep in
older commitments. Wanted to give you guys the heads-up
just in case the sum total of our efforts can outpace
what I can offer individually just now.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: B lead circuit breaker |
Do circuit breakers trip due to high voltage, or due to current overload?
On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 10:30 PM Ron Burnett <ronburnett@charter.net> wrote:
> Art,
>
> Yes, the volt meter shows 14.2 to 14.3 range in flight, unless it spikes I
> guess?
>
> Ron Burnett
>
> May you have the Lord's blessings today!
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Oct 8, 2018, at 8:51 PM, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>
> Ron,
>
> Do you have a voltmeter in the plane? I am guessing that the circuit
> breaker is popping because the voltage is going too high. Maybe a voltage
> regulator problem.
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 8:34 PM Ron Burnett <ronburnett@charter.net> wrote:
>
>> ronburnett@charter.net>
>>
>> I have a Plane Power Alternator on my RV-6A and lately with the Aero
>> Flash strobes on at some point the B lead CB will pop. It does reset.
>> Today I flew a 2 leg cross country for 4 hours total, all with the strobes
>> off after the popping event 2 minutes into the flight. How would I
>> determine if their is a problem with the strobes that might cause this
>> problem?
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> *"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."*
>
>
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: A brown-out alternative? |
On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 1:34 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> Somebody mentioned a potential avionics load of 6A?
> In the standby (non transmitting mode)? Obviously
> a detailed load analysis is indicated.
>
Bob,
I did the analysis for am MGL Challenger (10.4 inch display) system with
dual screens.
Typical current draw for both screens + iBox + RDAC + AHRS + magnetometer
2.90 amps
Maximum = 5.64 amps
These numbers are from MGL's documentation; I have not measured them.
-- Art Z.
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."*
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: A brown-out alternative? |
At 01:48 PM 10/9/2018, you wrote:
>On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 1:34 PM Robert L.
>Nuckolls, III
><<mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
>Somebody mentioned a potential avionics load of 6A?
>=C2 In the standby (non transmitting mode)? Obviously
>=C2 a detailed load analysis is indicated.
>
>
>Bob,
>
>I did the analysis for am MGL Challenger (10.4
>inch display) system with dual screens.
>
>Typical current draw for both screens + iBox +
>RDAC=C2 + AHRS=C2 + magnetometer=C2 = 2.90 amps
>Maximum = 5.64 amps
>
>These numbers are from MGL's documentation; I have not measured them.
Wow . . . okay. Well, there are BIGGER ones
Emacs!
Bob . . .
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: A brown-out alternative? |
Cool !
I have an issue with my P mags during start , Due to my little Li Fe
battery during initial cranking the bus voltage drops to 7-8 volts , the
engine does not fire until the bus recovers to above 9volts and the
ignition comes back on line . ..
If i fitted one of these to my P mag power feed , would that solve it
???
Neil
> On 9 Oct 2018, at 21:17, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> At 01:48 PM 10/9/2018, you wrote:
>> On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 1:34 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com <mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>>
wrote:
>> Somebody mentioned a potential avionics load of 6A?
>> =C3=82 In the standby (non transmitting mode)? Obviously
>> =C3=82 a detailed load analysis is indicated.
>>
>>
>> Bob,
>>
>> I did the analysis for am MGL Challenger (10.4 inch display) system
with dual screens.
>>
>> Typical current draw for both screens + iBox + RDAC=C3=82 + AHRS=C3=82
+ magnetometer=C3=82 = 2.90 amps
>> Maximum = 5.64 amps
>>
>> These numbers are from MGL's documentation; I have not measured them.
>
> Wow . . . okay. Well, there are BIGGER ones
>
> <10c8680d.jpg>
>
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: A brown-out alternative? |
At 04:20 PM 10/9/2018, you wrote:
>Cool !
>
>I have an issue with my P mags during start , Due to my little Li Fe
>battery during initial cranking the bus voltage drops to 7-8 volts ,
>the engine does not fire until the bus recovers to above 9volts and
>the ignition comes back on line . ..
>
>If i fitted one of these to my P mag power feed , would that solve it ???
Does the bus stay below 9v during cranking?
Normally, the brown-out-transient is a few
tens of milliseconds during starter motor
spin up. If your battery voltage is staying
below 9v after propeller begins to turn,
your battery may be too small or perhaps
worn out.
What kind of battery and starter are you
flying?
But yes, a booster system would take care
of the brown-out condition.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: A brown-out alternative? |
I=99m have a Skytech starter and a Aerovoltz 12 cell li fe better.
The bus stays below 9 volts for about the first 4 or 5 blades then as the vo
ltage recovers it starts.
Thanks for your help.
> On 9 Oct 2018, at 23:33, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectri
c.com> wrote:
>
> At 04:20 PM 10/9/2018, you wrote:
>> Cool !
>>
>> I have an issue with my P mags during start , Due to my little Li Fe batt
ery during initial cranking the bus voltage drops to 7-8 volts , the engine d
oes not fire until the bus recovers to above 9volts and the ignition comes b
ack on line . ..
>>
>> If i fitted one of these to my P mag power feed , would that solve it ???
>
> Does the bus stay below 9v during cranking?
> Normally, the brown-out-transient is a few
> tens of milliseconds during starter motor
> spin up. If your battery voltage is staying
> below 9v after propeller begins to turn,
> your battery may be too small or perhaps
> worn out.
>
> What kind of battery and starter are you
> flying?
>
> But yes, a booster system would take care
> of the brown-out condition.
>
==========================
==========================
==========================
==========================
==========================
==========================
======================
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: B lead circuit breaker |
Circuit breakers trip due to excessive current. Depending on the circuit breaker
design, excessive heat can also trip a circuit breaker. That heat could be
due to a loose terminal on the circuit breaker. High voltage could indirectly
trip an alternator-field breaker if an over voltage protection device shorts
to ground, thus causing excessive current.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483739#483739
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: A brown-out alternative? |
Keep in mind that the capabilities of some of the DC-DC converters from China are
exaggerated. Compensate for that by purchasing one with a higher rating.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483740#483740
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: B lead circuit breaker |
Thanks Joe. That's what I thought, but an earlier post alluded to voltage
causing breaker trip. --Ken
On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 4:19 PM user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Circuit breakers trip due to excessive current. Depending on the circuit
> breaker design, excessive heat can also trip a circuit breaker. That heat
> could be due to a loose terminal on the circuit breaker. High voltage
> could indirectly trip an alternator-field breaker if an over voltage
> protection device shorts to ground, thus causing excessive current.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483739#483739
>
>
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: B lead circuit breaker |
Ken,
We started with the thread being mis-titled, and wrong terms being used.
Here's the deal. If his alternator has crowbar style overvoltage
protection, *and* its regulator is having a hard time 'tracking' sudden
changes in current demand, what could be happening is this: When the
strobe is operating, current demand can go from zero to fairly high, and
back to zero with the flashing of the strobe. If the regulator can't
track the sudden change from high current to near zero current, then
alternator output voltage can spike high enough to trip the overvoltage
protection circuit. When it trips, it 'crowbars' (shorts) the field
supply line to ground. This causes a current spike that exceeds the
field circuit breaker (mis-titled as 'B-lead circuit breaker') rating,
tripping the breaker and shutting down the alternator.
If I were the OP, I'd try a flight with a lot of electrical loads on the
alternator, so that the fluctuating strobe load is only a small
percentage of total load. If the nuisance trip disappears, it would seem
likely that he has a regulator problem.
Charlie
On 10/9/2018 7:25 PM, Ken Ryan wrote:
> Thanks Joe. That's what I thought, but an earlier post alluded to
> voltage causing breaker trip. --Ken
>
> On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 4:19 PM user9253 <fransew@gmail.com
> <mailto:fransew@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> <fransew@gmail.com <mailto:fransew@gmail.com>>
>
> Circuit breakers trip due to excessive current. Depending on the
> circuit breaker design, excessive heat can also trip a circuit
> breaker. That heat could be due to a loose terminal on the
> circuit breaker. High voltage could indirectly trip an
> alternator-field breaker if an over voltage protection device
> shorts to ground, thus causing excessive current.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Message 15
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Subject: | Re: B lead circuit breaker |
Bob is correct in that it is the 5 amp Field CB that pops. First time was a
year ago, once. Then 3 times on an 8 hour 4 leg cross country. First time
Wig wags and strobe was on. Turns wig wags off, left strobes on, repopped a
few minutes later, reset and landed. This was at the end of nearly four ho
urs of flight.
Four days later took off with strobes on and CB popped. Turned strobe off a
nd flew 4 hours home with no issues. Will check connection on Field wire to
CB.
The voltage regulator is obviously built in the alternator.
That is all I know, which isn=99t much.
Thanks,
Ron Burnett
May you have the Lord's blessings today!
Sent from my iPad
> On Oct 9, 2018, at 8:02 AM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Do circuit breakers trip due to high voltage, or due to current overload?
>
>> On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 10:30 PM Ron Burnett <ronburnett@charter.net> wrot
e:
>> Art,
>>
>> Yes, the volt meter shows 14.2 to 14.3 range in flight, unless it spikes I
guess?
>>
>> Ron Burnett
>>
>> May you have the Lord's blessings today!
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Oct 8, 2018, at 8:51 PM, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ron,
>>>
>>> Do you have a voltmeter in the plane? I am guessing that the circuit bre
aker is popping because the voltage is going too high. Maybe a voltage regul
ator problem.
>>>
>>> -- Art Z.
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 8:34 PM Ron Burnett <ronburnett@charter.net> wro
te:
r.net>
>>>>
>>>> I have a Plane Power Alternator on my RV-6A and lately with the Aero Fl
ash strobes on at some point the B lead CB will pop. It does reset. Today
I flew a 2 leg cross country for 4 hours total, all with the strobes off af
ter the popping event 2 minutes into the flight. How would I determine if th
eir is a problem with the strobes that might cause this problem?
>>> --
>>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>>>
>>> "We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: B lead circuit breaker |
The vast majority of electrical problems are due to bad connections. Check every
connection in the charging circuit and in the strobe circuit. Take apart connectors,
clean them and put them back together.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483744#483744
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: house/hangar in MS $235K |
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