---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/09/18: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:08 AM - Re: B lead circuit breaker (Ron Burnett) 2. 10:44 AM - Re: B lead circuit breaker (user9253) 3. 10:54 AM - Re: B lead circuit breaker (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: A brown-out alternative? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 11:26 AM - Re: B lead circuit breaker (Ken Ryan) 6. 11:50 AM - Re: Re: A brown-out alternative? (Art Zemon) 7. 01:18 PM - Re: Re: A brown-out alternative? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 02:22 PM - Re: Re: A brown-out alternative? (Neil Parkinson) 9. 03:35 PM - Re: Re: A brown-out alternative? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 03:53 PM - Re: Re: A brown-out alternative? (Neil Parkinson) 11. 04:14 PM - Re: B lead circuit breaker (user9253) 12. 04:28 PM - Re: A brown-out alternative? (user9253) 13. 05:27 PM - Re: Re: B lead circuit breaker (Ken Ryan) 14. 06:14 PM - Re: Re: B lead circuit breaker (Charlie England) 15. 06:34 PM - Re: B lead circuit breaker (Ron Burnett) 16. 07:22 PM - Re: B lead circuit breaker (user9253) 17. 08:59 PM - Re: house/hangar in MS $235K (wynaire) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:08:36 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B lead circuit breaker From: Ron Burnett Bob, The B lead is 5 amps and I will check but I believe I have a 60 amp alternat or. I have a dual EFII ignition that normally runs 12.5 amps without strobes and wig wags which are the old Van=99s style bulbs which about double it with both on. Ron Burnett RV-6A O360 Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 8, 2018, at 10:36 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 08:18 PM 10/8/2018, you wrote: net> >> >> I have a Plane Power Alternator on my RV-6A and lately with the Aero Flas h strobes on at some point the B lead CB will pop. It does reset. Today I flew a 2 leg cross country for 4 hours total, all with the strobes off afte r the popping event 2 minutes into the flight. How would I determine if thei r is a problem with the strobes that might cause this problem? >> >> Thanks for any hints. >> >> Ron Burnett > > What size is your alternator. What size is > your B-lead breaker. > > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:44:17 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: B lead circuit breaker From: "user9253" Usually the "B" lead refers to the heavy wire that carries the alternator output current. At 5 amps, you must be talking about a different circuit. Regardless, check the circuit breaker connections to be sure that they are secure. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483729#483729 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:54:01 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B lead circuit breaker At 09:27 AM 10/9/2018, you wrote: >Bob, >The B lead is 5 amps and I will check but I >believe I have a 60 amp alternator. I have a >dual EFII ignition that normally runs 12.5 amps >without strobes and wig wags which are the old >Van=99s style bulbs which about double it with both on. Okay, that's not the b-lead protection . . . it's the field supply breaker which, if memory serves, is upstream of their crowbar ov protection system. If that breaker is nuisance tripping, then it's likely the result of (1) poor ov sensor design that's making it 'twitchy' and/or (2) some stimulus in the system is causing the minor equivalent of a load-dump overshoot from the regulator. Does the tripping go away with the strobes off? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:13:04 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: A brown-out alternative? At 12:55 AM 10/9/2018, you wrote: > > >nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > I mentioned a few days ago that I thought I had yet another > solution to the perennial brown-out gremlin. > > > > [SNIP] > > > > Cogent arguments pro and con are most welcome. > > >Clever idea, Bob -- I like it! > >As Charlie mentioned, the current drawn by the DC-DC boost converter >could be significant, and would of course increase with decreasing >supply voltage. There's also the likelihood of substantial inrush >current at start-up. Unless an adequately beefy start switch is >specified, its contacts might suffer from making and breaking this load. not really a hard-over concern. at 100 flight cycles per year max, even a marginally 'over taxed' switch would have a good service life. Inrush to the dc/dc converter itself wouldn't be bad either. Remember, the converter is simply shouldering a load that is already powered up. >This problem might be mitigated by powering the DC-DC boost >converter either from the load side of the starter contactor (in >parallel with the starter) or via a cube-type automotive >relay. This would also simplify adding this design as a retrofit, >since the start switch wiring/CB/fuse would not have to be upgraded >to carry the boost converter's supply current. I wired it as shown so that in the milliseconds after start switch closure until the contactor closes, the converter has time to come up and shoulder the load. Another feature to be explored is drop out delay in the starter contactor caused by slow decay of coil current through the catch diode. When the start button is release, boost drive goes away. The start button is held until the engine catches and starter current drops dramatically. Hopefully battery voltage will have returned to a value that supports appliances vulnerable to CBOT. Somebody mentioned a potential avionics load of 6A? In the standby (non transmitting mode)? Obviously a detailed load analysis is indicated. I am pondering some other power switching protocols with a goal of seamless integration into the z-figures. But if puss came to shove, one could simply add an "E-BUS BOOST" switch that is turned on before engine start and turned off afterward. I have one of these for testing https://tinyurl.com/ybqnl8fj I would set this critter to 15 volts with a 0.7 volt diode drop to give an e-bus boost of 14.3 volts or thereabouts. This would be about 2 volts higher than the open circuit on an SVLA battery. I'll measure it's ramp up time to make sure it will shoulder the e-bus in the time it takes for a starter contactor to close. Don't wait on me for this tho. I'm hip deep in older commitments. Wanted to give you guys the heads-up just in case the sum total of our efforts can outpace what I can offer individually just now. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:26:37 AM PST US From: Ken Ryan Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B lead circuit breaker Do circuit breakers trip due to high voltage, or due to current overload? On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 10:30 PM Ron Burnett wrote: > Art, > > Yes, the volt meter shows 14.2 to 14.3 range in flight, unless it spikes I > guess? > > Ron Burnett > > May you have the Lord's blessings today! > Sent from my iPad > > On Oct 8, 2018, at 8:51 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > > Ron, > > Do you have a voltmeter in the plane? I am guessing that the circuit > breaker is popping because the voltage is going too high. Maybe a voltage > regulator problem. > > -- Art Z. > > On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 8:34 PM Ron Burnett wrote: > >> ronburnett@charter.net> >> >> I have a Plane Power Alternator on my RV-6A and lately with the Aero >> Flash strobes on at some point the B lead CB will pop. It does reset. >> Today I flew a 2 leg cross country for 4 hours total, all with the strobes >> off after the popping event 2 minutes into the flight. How would I >> determine if their is a problem with the strobes that might cause this >> problem? > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."* > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:50:15 AM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: A brown-out alternative? On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 1:34 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > Somebody mentioned a potential avionics load of 6A? > In the standby (non transmitting mode)? Obviously > a detailed load analysis is indicated. > Bob, I did the analysis for am MGL Challenger (10.4 inch display) system with dual screens. Typical current draw for both screens + iBox + RDAC + AHRS + magnetometer 2.90 amps Maximum = 5.64 amps These numbers are from MGL's documentation; I have not measured them. -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."* ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:18:56 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: A brown-out alternative? At 01:48 PM 10/9/2018, you wrote: >On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 1:34 PM Robert L. >Nuckolls, III ><nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: >Somebody mentioned a potential avionics load of 6A? >=C2 In the standby (non transmitting mode)? Obviously >=C2 a detailed load analysis is indicated. > > >Bob, > >I did the analysis for am MGL Challenger (10.4 >inch display) system with dual screens. > >Typical current draw for both screens + iBox + >RDAC=C2 + AHRS=C2 + magnetometer=C2 = 2.90 amps >Maximum = 5.64 amps > >These numbers are from MGL's documentation; I have not measured them. Wow . . . okay. Well, there are BIGGER ones Emacs! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:22:07 PM PST US From: Neil Parkinson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: A brown-out alternative? Cool ! I have an issue with my P mags during start , Due to my little Li Fe battery during initial cranking the bus voltage drops to 7-8 volts , the engine does not fire until the bus recovers to above 9volts and the ignition comes back on line . .. If i fitted one of these to my P mag power feed , would that solve it ??? Neil > On 9 Oct 2018, at 21:17, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 01:48 PM 10/9/2018, you wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 1:34 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com > wrote: >> Somebody mentioned a potential avionics load of 6A? >> =C3=82 In the standby (non transmitting mode)? Obviously >> =C3=82 a detailed load analysis is indicated. >> >> >> Bob, >> >> I did the analysis for am MGL Challenger (10.4 inch display) system with dual screens. >> >> Typical current draw for both screens + iBox + RDAC=C3=82 + AHRS=C3=82 + magnetometer=C3=82 = 2.90 amps >> Maximum = 5.64 amps >> >> These numbers are from MGL's documentation; I have not measured them. > > Wow . . . okay. Well, there are BIGGER ones > > <10c8680d.jpg> > > > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:35:58 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: A brown-out alternative? At 04:20 PM 10/9/2018, you wrote: >Cool ! > >I have an issue with my P mags during start , Due to my little Li Fe >battery during initial cranking the bus voltage drops to 7-8 volts , >the engine does not fire until the bus recovers to above 9volts and >the ignition comes back on line . .. > >If i fitted one of these to my P mag power feed , would that solve it ??? Does the bus stay below 9v during cranking? Normally, the brown-out-transient is a few tens of milliseconds during starter motor spin up. If your battery voltage is staying below 9v after propeller begins to turn, your battery may be too small or perhaps worn out. What kind of battery and starter are you flying? But yes, a booster system would take care of the brown-out condition. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:53:04 PM PST US From: Neil Parkinson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: A brown-out alternative? I=99m have a Skytech starter and a Aerovoltz 12 cell li fe better. The bus stays below 9 volts for about the first 4 or 5 blades then as the vo ltage recovers it starts. Thanks for your help. > On 9 Oct 2018, at 23:33, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 04:20 PM 10/9/2018, you wrote: >> Cool ! >> >> I have an issue with my P mags during start , Due to my little Li Fe batt ery during initial cranking the bus voltage drops to 7-8 volts , the engine d oes not fire until the bus recovers to above 9volts and the ignition comes b ack on line . .. >> >> If i fitted one of these to my P mag power feed , would that solve it ??? > > Does the bus stay below 9v during cranking? > Normally, the brown-out-transient is a few > tens of milliseconds during starter motor > spin up. If your battery voltage is staying > below 9v after propeller begins to turn, > your battery may be too small or perhaps > worn out. > > What kind of battery and starter are you > flying? > > But yes, a booster system would take care > of the brown-out condition. > ========================== ========================== ========================== ========================== ========================== ========================== ====================== ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:17 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: B lead circuit breaker From: "user9253" Circuit breakers trip due to excessive current. Depending on the circuit breaker design, excessive heat can also trip a circuit breaker. That heat could be due to a loose terminal on the circuit breaker. High voltage could indirectly trip an alternator-field breaker if an over voltage protection device shorts to ground, thus causing excessive current. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483739#483739 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:28:18 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: A brown-out alternative? From: "user9253" Keep in mind that the capabilities of some of the DC-DC converters from China are exaggerated. Compensate for that by purchasing one with a higher rating. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483740#483740 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:27:51 PM PST US From: Ken Ryan Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: B lead circuit breaker Thanks Joe. That's what I thought, but an earlier post alluded to voltage causing breaker trip. --Ken On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 4:19 PM user9253 wrote: > > Circuit breakers trip due to excessive current. Depending on the circuit > breaker design, excessive heat can also trip a circuit breaker. That heat > could be due to a loose terminal on the circuit breaker. High voltage > could indirectly trip an alternator-field breaker if an over voltage > protection device shorts to ground, thus causing excessive current. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483739#483739 > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:32 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: B lead circuit breaker From: Charlie England Ken, We started with the thread being mis-titled, and wrong terms being used. Here's the deal. If his alternator has crowbar style overvoltage protection, *and* its regulator is having a hard time 'tracking' sudden changes in current demand, what could be happening is this: When the strobe is operating, current demand can go from zero to fairly high, and back to zero with the flashing of the strobe. If the regulator can't track the sudden change from high current to near zero current, then alternator output voltage can spike high enough to trip the overvoltage protection circuit. When it trips, it 'crowbars' (shorts) the field supply line to ground. This causes a current spike that exceeds the field circuit breaker (mis-titled as 'B-lead circuit breaker') rating, tripping the breaker and shutting down the alternator. If I were the OP, I'd try a flight with a lot of electrical loads on the alternator, so that the fluctuating strobe load is only a small percentage of total load. If the nuisance trip disappears, it would seem likely that he has a regulator problem. Charlie On 10/9/2018 7:25 PM, Ken Ryan wrote: > Thanks Joe. That's what I thought, but an earlier post alluded to > voltage causing breaker trip. --Ken > > On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 4:19 PM user9253 > wrote: > > > > > Circuit breakers trip due to excessive current. Depending on the > circuit breaker design, excessive heat can also trip a circuit > breaker. That heat could be due to a loose terminal on the > circuit breaker. High voltage could indirectly trip an > alternator-field breaker if an over voltage protection device > shorts to ground, thus causing excessive current. > > -------- > Joe Gores > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:31 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B lead circuit breaker From: Ron Burnett Bob is correct in that it is the 5 amp Field CB that pops. First time was a year ago, once. Then 3 times on an 8 hour 4 leg cross country. First time Wig wags and strobe was on. Turns wig wags off, left strobes on, repopped a few minutes later, reset and landed. This was at the end of nearly four ho urs of flight. Four days later took off with strobes on and CB popped. Turned strobe off a nd flew 4 hours home with no issues. Will check connection on Field wire to CB. The voltage regulator is obviously built in the alternator. That is all I know, which isn=99t much. Thanks, Ron Burnett May you have the Lord's blessings today! Sent from my iPad > On Oct 9, 2018, at 8:02 AM, Ken Ryan wrote: > > Do circuit breakers trip due to high voltage, or due to current overload? > >> On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 10:30 PM Ron Burnett wrot e: >> Art, >> >> Yes, the volt meter shows 14.2 to 14.3 range in flight, unless it spikes I guess? >> >> Ron Burnett >> >> May you have the Lord's blessings today! >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Oct 8, 2018, at 8:51 PM, Art Zemon wrote: >>> >>> Ron, >>> >>> Do you have a voltmeter in the plane? I am guessing that the circuit bre aker is popping because the voltage is going too high. Maybe a voltage regul ator problem. >>> >>> -- Art Z. >>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 8:34 PM Ron Burnett wro te: r.net> >>>> >>>> I have a Plane Power Alternator on my RV-6A and lately with the Aero Fl ash strobes on at some point the B lead CB will pop. It does reset. Today I flew a 2 leg cross country for 4 hours total, all with the strobes off af ter the popping event 2 minutes into the flight. How would I determine if th eir is a problem with the strobes that might cause this problem? >>> -- >>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >>> >>> "We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are." ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:23 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: B lead circuit breaker From: "user9253" The vast majority of electrical problems are due to bad connections. Check every connection in the charging circuit and in the strobe circuit. Take apart connectors, clean them and put them back together. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483744#483744 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:04 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: house/hangar in MS $235K From: wynaire VGhhbmtzIQoKClNlbnQgZnJvbSBteSBHYWxheHkgVGFiwq4gUzIKLS0tLS0tLS0gT3JpZ2luYWwg bWVzc2FnZSAtLS0tLS0tLUZyb206IEpheSBTYW5kZXJzIDxqYXlzYW5kZXJzbWFpbEB5YWhvby5j b20+IERhdGU6IDIwMTgtMTAtMDkgIDU6NDYgUE0gIChHTVQtMDc6MDApIFRvOiBNaWtlIFd5bm4g PHd5bmFpcmVAY2l0bGluay5uZXQ+IFN1YmplY3Q6IGhvdXNlL2hhbmdhciBpbiBNUyAkMjM1SyAK NDAwMCBmdCBwYXZlZCBydW53YXlEaWFtb25kaGVhZCBBaXJwb3J0LTY2eQoKCkhPTUUgJiBIQU5H RVIgT04gIEEgVEFYSSBXQVkhIOKAoiAkMjM1LDAwMCDigKIgQVZBSUxBQkxFIEZPUiBTQUxFIOKA oiAKRGlhbW9uZGhlYWQsIE1TIHByaXZhdGUgYWlycG9ydC4gSG9tZSAgMSw1MzUgc3F1YXJlIGZ0 LiwgMyBiZWRzLzIgYmF0aCAKYnJpY2sgaG9tZSB3L2J1cm5pbmcgZmlyZXBsYWNlIGFuZCBhIGdy ZWF0IGtpdGNoZW4uICBIQU5HRVIgNTAgWCA1MCBvbiAKdGhlIHRheGl3YXkhICBIYW5nZXIgaGFz IGZ1bGwgYmF0aCwgb2ZmaWNlICYgc3RvcmFnZSBsb2Z0LiBEb2VzIG5vdCAKZ2V0IGFueSBiZXR0 ZXIgdy9vbmx5ICQ1NiBtb250aGx5IFByb3BlcnR5IE93bmVycyBBc3NvY2lhdGlvbiBkdWVzLiBX YWxrCiBvdXQgeW91ciBiYWNrIGRvb3IgYWNyb3NzIHRoZSBwYXRpbyBpbnRvIHRoZSBoYW5nZXIu ICBEaWFtb25kaGVhZCAKb2ZmZXJzIG1hbnkgYW1lbml0aWVzLCBpLmUuIDQgY29tbXVuaXR5IHN3 aW1taW5nIHBvb2xzLCAyLSAxOCBob2xlIGdvbGYgCmNvdXJzZXMsIG1hcmluYSwgd2Fsa2luZyB0 cmFpbHMsIGtheWFrIGxhdW5jaCwgcGFya3MsIENvdW50cnkgY2x1YiwganVzdAogdG8gbmFtZSBh IGZldy4KT2ZmZXJlZCBieSBSRS9NQVggQ29hc3QgRGVsdGEgUmVhbHR5LCAyMjggMjU1IDI2MDAs IENhbGwgRG9uYSBEZWNrZXIgMjI4CiAyMTYgNjUwNQog4oCiIENvbnRhY3QgRG9uYSBEZWNrZXIs IEJyb2tlciAtICBsb2NhdGVkIERpYW1vbmRoZWFkLCBNUyBVU0EKIOKAoiBUZWxlcGhvbmU6IDIy ODIxNjY1MDUgLiAyMjgyNTUyNjAwIOKAoiBQb3N0ZWQgT2N0b2JlciA5LCAyMDE4CiDigKIgU2hv dyBhbGwgQWRzIHBvc3RlZCBieSB0aGlzIEFkdmVydGlzZXIKIOKAoiBSZWNvbW1lbmQgVGhpcyBB ZCB0byBhIEZyaWVuZAog4oCiIEVtYWlsIEFkdmVydGlzZXIKIOKAoiBTYXZlIHRvIFdhdGNobGlz dAog4oCiIFJlcG9ydCBUaGlzIEFkCiDigKIgVmlldyBMYXJnZXIgUGljdHVyZXMKICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgCgogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAKICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAKICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAKICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAKICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAK ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.