AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Sat 10/13/18


Total Messages Posted: 8



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 08:46 AM - Re: Re: A brown-out alternative? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     2. 11:07 AM - Re: Re: A brown-out alternative? (FLYaDIVE)
     3. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: A brown-out alternative? (FLYaDIVE)
     4. 11:27 AM - Re: Re: A brown-out alternative? (don van santen)
     5. 11:40 AM - Re: Re: B lead circuit breaker (FLYaDIVE)
     6. 11:46 AM - Re: A brown-out alternative? (user9253)
     7. 07:28 PM - Re: Re: B lead circuit breaker (Ron Burnett)
     8. 08:22 PM - Re: Re: B lead circuit breaker (Sebastien)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 08:46:48 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: A brown-out alternative?
    > >However, your last drawing is certainly a simpler, lower-parts-count >solution! Ah well, I still enjoyed thinking it through... That's the only way to get 'better' . . . better being defined as steps toward the elegant solution. Used to really p-o my techs when I would ask, "okay, you got it working to spec . . . now . . . how many parts can you take out and still meet the spec? Problem was that it was almost never a simple goal of part reduction, it often called for an alternate approach. In this case, I'd like to evolve an approach that appeals to the largest audience. Especially those with limited hands-on, DIY skills for electronic fabrication. Using a relay to achieve sequencing goals is pretty crude . . . but the simplicity is appealing. Bob . . .


    Message 2


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    Time: 11:07:55 AM PST US
    From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: A brown-out alternative?
    WHOOPS LEFT HAND SIDE? On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 2:00 PM FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote: > Bob: > > Just a quickie... > Looking at the schematic... > B+ coming in on the Right Hand Side? > If so, wouldn't the relay be energized all the time the B+ is turned on? > And the momentary switch not being required? > > Barry > > On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 1:28 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > >> At 12:40 AM 10/12/2018, you wrote: >> >> >> >> Bob Nuckolls wrote: >> > I wired it as shown so that in the milliseconds after start switch >> closure until the contactor closes, the converter has time to come up and >> shoulder the load. >> >> >> That makes perfect sense. My suggestion would have caused the DC/DC >> converter to start up as the bus voltage was sagging, losing the time >> advantage inherent in your schematic. >> >> >> Good work. Now my concern is that when the starter button >> is released, does the boost disappear too soon? i.e. before >> the starter contactor releases and unloads the battery? >> >> If this is a demonstrated concern, power to the dc/dc >> converter might be simply conditioned with a relay thusly: >> [image: Emacs!] >> >> The S704 relay will have its own drop-out >> characteristic which can be crafted to be >> LONGER than the starter contactor. If the diode >> alone doesn't offer a suitable delay, replace >> it with a capacitor . . . no need to 'tailor' >> it to any close tolerance . . . 100mS of >> dropout delay would not be out of line. >> >> Bob . . . >> >


    Message 3


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    Time: 11:13:19 AM PST US
    From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: A brown-out alternative?
    Bob: Just a quickie... Looking at the schematic... B+ coming in on the Right Hand Side? If so, wouldn't the relay be energized all the time the B+ is turned on? And the momentary switch not being required? Barry On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 1:28 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 12:40 AM 10/12/2018, you wrote: > > > > Bob Nuckolls wrote: > > I wired it as shown so that in the milliseconds after start switch > closure until the contactor closes, the converter has time to come up and > shoulder the load. > > > That makes perfect sense. My suggestion would have caused the DC/DC > converter to start up as the bus voltage was sagging, losing the time > advantage inherent in your schematic. > > > Good work. Now my concern is that when the starter button > is released, does the boost disappear too soon? i.e. before > the starter contactor releases and unloads the battery? > > If this is a demonstrated concern, power to the dc/dc > converter might be simply conditioned with a relay thusly: > [image: Emacs!] > > The S704 relay will have its own drop-out > characteristic which can be crafted to be > LONGER than the starter contactor. If the diode > alone doesn't offer a suitable delay, replace > it with a capacitor . . . no need to 'tailor' > it to any close tolerance . . . 100mS of > dropout delay would not be out of line. > > Bob . . . >


    Message 4


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    Time: 11:27:29 AM PST US
    From: don van santen <donvansanten@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: A brown-out alternative?
    Barry, B+ is on the right side and I belive the momentary switch is the starter switch. On Sat, Oct 13, 2018, 11:13 FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote: > WHOOPS LEFT HAND SIDE? > > > On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 2:00 PM FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Bob: >> >> Just a quickie... >> Looking at the schematic... >> B+ coming in on the Right Hand Side? >> If so, wouldn't the relay be energized all the time the B+ is turned on? >> And the momentary switch not being required? >> >> Barry >> >> On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 1:28 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < >> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: >> >>> At 12:40 AM 10/12/2018, you wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Bob Nuckolls wrote: >>> > I wired it as shown so that in the milliseconds after start switch >>> closure until the contactor closes, the converter has time to come up and >>> shoulder the load. >>> >>> >>> That makes perfect sense. My suggestion would have caused the DC/DC >>> converter to start up as the bus voltage was sagging, losing the time >>> advantage inherent in your schematic. >>> >>> >>> Good work. Now my concern is that when the starter button >>> is released, does the boost disappear too soon? i.e. before >>> the starter contactor releases and unloads the battery? >>> >>> If this is a demonstrated concern, power to the dc/dc >>> converter might be simply conditioned with a relay thusly: >>> [image: Emacs!] >>> >>> The S704 relay will have its own drop-out >>> characteristic which can be crafted to be >>> LONGER than the starter contactor. If the diode >>> alone doesn't offer a suitable delay, replace >>> it with a capacitor . . . no need to 'tailor' >>> it to any close tolerance . . . 100mS of >>> dropout delay would not be out of line. >>> >>> Bob . . . >>> >>


    Message 5


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    Time: 11:40:53 AM PST US
    From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: B lead circuit breaker
    OMG!!! On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 10:23 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > If I had to put a number to it, 90% were due to bad contacts due to > corrosion. > You can not visually inspect a ground connection. It must be undone, wire > brushed, > NEW star lock washers replaced and tightened securely... Yes, tightened > even > beyond specs. Then, you can spray some chromate paint over the connectio n > for a bit more corrosion protection. > > > I've never seen this kind of effort expended on a ground > to the airframe. A bizjet has HUNDREDS of such grounds. > Barry - And this is a plane that you did design work on? What about Ground Loops? You do recall it was Ground Loops that initiated our rivalry . All are made up with flat and clean faying surfaces assembled > to the proper compression specs (torque). The natural > crush that occurs in the terminal creates the gas-tight > *** Barry - This is an after thought - I'm coming back to this point after I re-read my remarks on 'That are being CURED...' I just realized I said use a New Star Washer. Well a Star Washer will NOT permit the type of joint you are theorizing about. AIR and MOISTURE will get under, around and between the Star Washer and the Ground Connection. So, that alone blows your NO AIR ACCESS theory out of the air and right onto the water. But, continue to read. It is also a GREAT reason to use Chromate Paint or Dielectric Grease. > interface that excludes moisture+air; hence corrosion. > Barry - Are you REALLY comparing a bizjet to what we fly? And how many hours a year does a bizjet fly compared to what we fly And what happens with the bizjet when it is not being flown? Stored in a heated hanger? And what 'faying' surface are you talking about? Look up the definition of faying. These are Grounding Points, not assembly points. And that are not on bizjets. And how may bizjets do you inspect a year? Me. NONE! But I do about 30+ GA aircraft a year. 30 aircraft that do not fly more than 100 hours a year. 30 aircraft that do not sit in a heated hangers. 30 aircraft that where most of them spend their ENTIRE LIFE sitting outside . IF corrosion was not such a big deal WHY do so many possible plane owners shy away from planes that live on the coasts? Just because corrosion attacks a wing spar does not mean it does not attach an electrical connection. AND - IF your logic held water, why am I seeing so many BAD Grounds and Connections - That are being CURED *** by simply: Removing the Ground, Cleaning the Ground with a wire brush, installing a New Star Washer and Tightening the Nut? How do you explain that! And just for S&G, lets talk about SPARS, they should have a FAYED union, with heavy duty Nuts & Bolts or Large Size Rivets put together with tons of force - YET! They corrode!!! > > A ground connection can look pretty bad on the surface > of components but still maintain electrical integrity > if assemble properly in the first place. > Barry - That is a pretty damn big IF! See *** Barry > > > Wait a second Bob, aren't you the one the advocates the use of > Dielectric Grease on connections just to prevent corrosion? > I agree with the Dielectric Grease idea. Been doing it for decades. > > > It sure doesn't hurt but recall that the purpose of > the grease is to fill voids in the surfaces that did > not get closed when the joint was made up in the > first place. A void full of grease won't admit > moisture+air. > > Here's a ground cluster in the nose of a Beechjet > Barry - I don't care about the Beachjet! One plane, out of 30 that I do or tens of thousands nationwide, is NOT statistical proof of your theory. But, I will take pictures the next time I come across a ground/connection with with bad/failing continuity. Hey Guys - Did you look at the picture in the link? It sure as hell looks like the area under the connectors was WIRE BRUSHED! And it sure looks like it was an AFTER THOUGHT! If it was designed to be a bare area I would think the area would have a Nice Straight Lines and be chromate conversion to a Type 2, Class 3. <-- Yes, it is electrically conductive AND resists corrosion. Guess the original design engineers forgot about that? > > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/MVC-699X.JPG > > Bright? yes. Clean? yes. Grease? No, Overspray? *** No. > This installation was in s/n RK24, an experimental > flight test aircraft which was 20+ years old at the time. > > If the airplane is operated in a particularly > wicked environs, like the sea coast, the surfaces > on and around such joints will enjoy protection > from accelerated corrosion but if the joint was > properly made up in the first place, the service > life of the joint is probably not extended much. > Barry - 'IF' - 'PROBABLY NOT' - Not the words the FAA or a customer wants to hear. > Talking about tracing CRAZY electrical issues. TWICE, I have come > across bulbs that check good on continuity yet DO NOT LIGHT! > No, it was not corrosion, not this time. Care to take a SWAG at it? > I would bet the airport that no one would guess. > > > The failed bulbs were Marker Nav Light Bulbs. hint, hint. > On a 12 VDC system the bulbs are really a 24 VDC bulb. > And on a 24 VDC system, yes you guessed it, they are really > a 48 VDC BULB. It is done that way to extend the life of > the bulb. > > Barry - I wish I was drunk so I can blame my "OMG" statement on alcohol. Yes, Bob, they are a 24 volt bulb in a 12 volt system. They have very heavy elements - you can take a magnifying glass and see that. Yes, they are marked as 12 / 14 volts. Where does my information come from? It is published in the common sense handbook which fell off your desk. PROOF - Take two bulbs. Both of the same Wattage and same voltage. Make sure one of the is the standard 12 volt Nav Marker Light. Hook them up to an ample battery. At The Same Time. Which one is brighter? And one it is brighter by quite a bit. NOT the Nav light! > > Where is this idea published? In chapter 12 of the > 'Connection I speak to the relationship between > applied voltage and life/current/intensity of > the typical incandescent bulb. > > [image: Emacs!] > For every ~5% reduction in voltage from the > bulb's design center, life approximately doubles. > So in your hypothetical 50% drop from design > center, bulb life goes up HUNDREDS of times. > At the same time, light output drops to about > 10% of the design center . . . and in fact > is quite redish in color. > > [image: Emacs!] > An exemplar navigation lamp is in the 21-26watt class > and operates at a color temperature strongly suggesting > a design optimized for light output/color . . . and NOT > de rated for service life. > > > Vibration is your enemy as well as weather. > > > Also discussed in Chapter 12. In fact, we suggested a > keep-warm circuit to hold incandescent lamps at about > 10% of nominal operating voltage when turned OFF. This > keeps the tungsten filament ABOVE the brittle/ductile > transition temperature making the bulb more resistant > to both vibration and warm-up shock when turned ON. > Barry - TERRIFIC! But it becomes a moot point. I gather that was NOT incorporated? Even though bizjets have an APU. And it certainly is not what is done in our planes? Stop talking around practicality. Do what works and does not cost the customer outrageous amounts of money. Oh, wait! You did work for Beachcraft!!! Great plane. Just don't expect a low co$t Annual or Repair Bill. And I hope you never have to replace Hydraulic Landing Gear Manifold on a Beach Musketeer. Apollo Mission 13 all over again. Yeah, the air around the airplane can carry a host > of antagonistic stressed into vulnerable locations, > like the metal parts of a lamp socket. Dielectric grease > on the shell and tip of a lamp base is a good thing. > > So, what happens is the filament breaks but stays in contact with > the =C3=A2=82=AC=CB=9Cpost=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2.=C3=82 I have seen the problem happen twice and both > times it was at the mounting post of the filament. > The low current of the DMM checks the bulb as good.=C3=82 But when > operational voltage and CURRENT is applied the break heats up and opens. > > > So does the bulb come back on when it cools only to > immediately go dark again? > Barry - I don't know! My eyes can not detect something that happens in micro seconds. The bulbs did NOT show any coming to life, EXCEPT for resistance through the filament. Twice I have seen this - I am not an electron so I can not see what is happening inside the bulb. I only know: 1 - The bulb shows continuity/resistance. 2 - The bulb does not SHOW me any light. 3 - When a new bulb is inserted the system works. I don't think I emptied the 55 gal trash can as yet... If I can find the bulb I'll mail it to you. Bob, you are just not following the K.I.S.S. M.E. principal. If it works why fight it! Bob, I like our banter. It is just your single minded logic that escapes me. I would buy you a drink should we ever meet. I hope we do. Wow! Twice in one email I referenced alcohol, you must think me a drunk? Barry > Bob . . . >


    Message 6


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    Time: 11:46:21 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: A brown-out alternative?
    From: "user9253" <fransew@gmail.com>
    No, the relay is not energized all of the time. There is no junction where the wires cross. The diode blocks current from the left and the open switch blocks current from the right side. The only way to energize the relay is by closing the switch. The relay drops out when the push button switch is released. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483800#483800


    Message 7


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    Time: 07:28:22 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: B lead circuit breaker
    From: Ron Burnett <ronburnett@charter.net>
    It has been a week since weather/maintenance has allowed a flight. I have c hecked connections to the Field CB and Strobe 10 amp auto fuse and all are s ecure and normal. I will check Ground connections also. My normal loads ar e 12.5 amps and strobes and wigwams double that if both on. They were all on the first trip, then only strobes the second and last. After that I left a ll lights off for remainder of nearly 4 hours back home. Others have complained about Plane Power alternators tripping CB I have rece ntly learned. Vans suggested trying to download some electrical info from m y GRT EFIS, which I don=99t know how to do. Appreciate all the help. Ron Burnett RV-6A O360 dual EFII May you have the Lord's blessings today! Sent from my iPad > On Oct 9, 2018, at 8:14 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote: > > Ken, > > We started with the thread being mis-titled, and wrong terms being used. H ere's the deal. If his alternator has crowbar style overvoltage protection, * and* its regulator is having a hard time 'tracking' sudden changes in curren t demand, what could be happening is this: When the strobe is operating, cur rent demand can go from zero to fairly high, and back to zero with the flash ing of the strobe. If the regulator can't track the sudden change from high current to near zero current, then alternator output voltage can spike high enough to trip the overvoltage protection circuit. When it trips, it 'crowb ars' (shorts) the field supply line to ground. This causes a current spike t hat exceeds the field circuit breaker (mis-titled as 'B-lead circuit breaker ') rating, tripping the breaker and shutting down the alternator. > > If I were the OP, I'd try a flight with a lot of electrical loads on the a lternator, so that the fluctuating strobe load is only a small percentage of total load. If the nuisance trip disappears, it would seem likely that he h as a regulator problem. > > Charlie > >> On 10/9/2018 7:25 PM, Ken Ryan wrote: >> Thanks Joe. That's what I thought, but an earlier post alluded to voltage causing breaker trip. --Ken >> >>> On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 4:19 PM user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Circuit breakers trip due to excessive current. Depending on the circui t breaker design, excessive heat can also trip a circuit breaker. That heat could be due to a loose terminal on the circuit breaker. High voltage coul d indirectly trip an alternator-field breaker if an over voltage protection d evice shorts to ground, thus causing excessive current. >>> >>> -------- >>> Joe Gores > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com


    Message 8


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    Time: 08:22:37 PM PST US
    From: Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: B lead circuit breaker
    "download some electrical info from my GRT EFIS, which I don=99t know how to do " If you have a USB stick plugged into your EFIS, then you will need to do the following in order to record the info: 8.3.3 USB Flight Data Logger- =9CBlack Box=9D feature The USB Flight Data Logger feature was designed to provide a seamless recording of a limited number of important flight data parameters that are continually written to the USB stick. Go to SET MENU > General Setup > Demo Settings. Press the knob to open the page. USB Flight Data Logger -- On/Off. When On, the Mini will record data when any of these are true: airspeed is valid (above the sensor minimum), ground speed is above 5 knots, RPM/N1 input is non-zero, fuel flow is non-zero. USB FDL Record Interval (ms) -- Data samples are recorded at this interval: 200 - 30000 ms in steps of 200 ms. Default is 1000 ms. USB FDL Save Interval (s) -- The recorded data is written to the USB flash drive at this interval. 0 - 300 seconds. Default is 60 seconds. (If set to zero, the file is only written when the internal buffer fills up or the data logger stops.) For a more continuous black-box recording, set it to 5 seconds or less. The data is saved as a .CSV file on the USB stick called =9CGRT Fligh t Data Log.csv and can be opened and studied using any spreadsheet program. Then just upload the .csv files from the USB stick to savvy https://www.savvyanalysis.com/ and have a look at your VOLTS and AMPS graphs. On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 7:32 PM Ron Burnett <ronburnett@charter.net> wrote: > It has been a week since weather/maintenance has allowed a flight. I hav e > checked connections to the Field CB and Strobe 10 amp auto fuse and all a re > secure and normal. I will check Ground connections also. My normal load s > are 12.5 amps and strobes and wigwams double that if both on. They were a ll > on the first trip, then only strobes the second and last. After that I > left all lights off for remainder of nearly 4 hours back home. > > Others have complained about Plane Power alternators tripping CB I have > recently learned. Vans suggested trying to download some electrical info > from my GRT EFIS, which I don=99t know how to do. > > Appreciate all the help. > > Ron Burnett > RV-6A O360 dual EFII > > May you have the Lord's blessings today! > Sent from my iPad > > On Oct 9, 2018, at 8:14 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote: > > Ken, > > We started with the thread being mis-titled, and wrong terms being used. > Here's the deal. If his alternator has crowbar style overvoltage > protection, *and* its regulator is having a hard time 'tracking' sudden > changes in current demand, what could be happening is this: When the stro be > is operating, current demand can go from zero to fairly high, and back to > zero with the flashing of the strobe. If the regulator can't track the > sudden change from high current to near zero current, then alternator > output voltage can spike high enough to trip the overvoltage protection > circuit. When it trips, it 'crowbars' (shorts) the field supply line to > ground. This causes a current spike that exceeds the field circuit breake r > (mis-titled as 'B-lead circuit breaker') rating, tripping the breaker and > shutting down the alternator. > > If I were the OP, I'd try a flight with a lot of electrical loads on the > alternator, so that the fluctuating strobe load is only a small percentag e > of total load. If the nuisance trip disappears, it would seem likely that > he has a regulator problem. > > Charlie > > On 10/9/2018 7:25 PM, Ken Ryan wrote: > > Thanks Joe. That's what I thought, but an earlier post alluded to voltage > causing breaker trip. --Ken > > On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 4:19 PM user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> Circuit breakers trip due to excessive current. Depending on the circui t >> breaker design, excessive heat can also trip a circuit breaker. That he at >> could be due to a loose terminal on the circuit breaker. High voltage >> could indirectly trip an alternator-field breaker if an over voltage >> protection device shorts to ground, thus causing excessive current. >> >> -------- >> Joe Gores >> > > > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm _campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon> Virus-free . > www.avast.com > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm _campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link> > <#m_1180405282351623508_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > >




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