---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 10/14/18: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:02 AM - Simple ideas in physics (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 10:23 AM - Z-12 questions (Lyn Robertson) 3. 11:03 AM - Re: Z-12 questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 12:14 PM - Re: Z-12 questions (Lyn Robertson) 5. 12:29 PM - Re: Z-12 questions (user9253) 6. 12:34 PM - Re: Z-12 questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 02:07 PM - Re: Z-12 questions (Charlie England) 8. 02:17 PM - Re: Z-12 questions (Lyn Robertson) 9. 05:47 PM - Re: Z-12 questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 05:56 PM - Re: Z-12 questions (Lyn Robertson) 11. 06:10 PM - Re: Z-12 questions (Lyn Robertson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:00 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Simple ideas in physics At 01:31 PM 10/13/2018, you wrote: OMG!!! If I had to put a number to it, 90% were due to bad contacts due to corrosion. You can not visually inspect a ground connection. It must be undone, wire brushed, NEW star lock washers replaced and tightened securely... Yes, tightened even beyond specs.| Then, you can spray some chromate paint over the connection for a bit more corrosion protection. | I've never seen this kind of effort expended on a ground | to the airframe. A bizjet has HUNDREDS of such grounds. Barry - And this is a plane that you did design work on?| What about Ground Loops? You do recall it was Ground Loops that initiated our rivalry . All airplanes are rife with ground loops of no consequence as long as a potential victim's small signal path does not intersect with an antagonistic system's power path. Avoiding this condition is a competent of 'system integration'. *** Barry - This is an after thought - I'm coming back to this point after I re-read my remarks on 'That are being CURED...' I just realized I said use a New Star Washer. Well a Star Washer will NOT permit the type of joint you are theorizing about. AIR and MOISTURE will get under, around and between the Star Washer and the Ground Connection. So, that alone blows your NO AIR ACCESS theory out of the air and right onto the water. But, continue to read. It is also a GREAT reason to use Chromate Paint or Dielectric Grease. You will NEVER find a star washer used in the current path on any production airplane I've had contact with. They are used under the heads/nuts of threaded fasteners on switch and circuit breaker wiring as prophylactic against fastener loosening . . . they are never part of the joint's electrical integrity. |Barry - Are you REALLY comparing a bizjet to what we fly? |And how many hours a year does a bizjet fly compared to what we fly |And what happens with the bizjet when it is not being flown? |Stored in a heated hanger? The examples I illustrated just happened to be on a B400 . . . fabricated by process specification that applies to the fleet: Skippers to King Airs irrespective of how often flown or where they are housed. And what 'faying' surface are you talking about? Look up the definition of faying. These are Grounding Points, not assembly points. Okay . . . [] Preventing 'crevice corrosion' by exclusion of moisture and air into GAS TIGHT joints is what we're talking about here . . . and it is not unique to structural joining. AND - IF your logic held water, why am I seeing so many BAD Grounds and Connections - That are being CURED *** by simply: Removing the Ground, Cleaning the Ground with a wire brush, installing a New Star Washer and Tightening the Nut?| How do you explain that! And just for S&G, lets talk about SPARS, they should have a FAYED union, with heavy duty Nuts & Bolts or Large Size Rivets put together with tons of force - YET!| They corrode!!! I cannot speak to your experiences. And yes, I've never 'inspected' any airplane. I was schooled in the art and physics of practical, robust creations that meet design goals. | A ground connection can look pretty bad on the surface | of components but still maintain electrical integrity | if assemble properly in the first place.| Barry - That is a pretty damn big IF! See *** Barry Not at all. How many threaded fasteners will you find on any vehicle but especially on a complex airplanes. What makes a joint to the airframe unique over what might be many hundreds of joints held in compression by threaded fasteners elsewhere? Why are all such fasteners not painted after assembly? | Wait a second Bob, aren't you the one the advocates the use of Dielectric Grease on connections just to prevent corrosion? I agree with the Dielectric Grease idea. Been doing it for decades. | It sure doesn't hurt but recall that the purpose of | the grease is to fill voids in the surfaces that did | not get closed when the joint was made up in the | first place. A void full of grease won't admit | moisture+air. | Here's a ground cluster in the nose of a Beechjet Barry - I don't care about the Beachjet! One plane, out of 30 that I do or tens of thousands nationwide, is NOT statistical proof of your theory. But, I will take pictures the next time I come across a ground/connection with with bad/failing continuity. Hey Guys - Did you look at the picture in the link? It sure as hell looks like the area under the connectors was WIRE BRUSHED. Yup . . . part of the process spec. If it were a single terminal on a threaded fastener, the prepared area would have been cleaned with a bonding brush . . . also fitted with wire bristles. [] Standard aviation tooling for cleaning the area in the made-up joint. Was awarded my own personal boding brush in 1961 at Boeing. This is not a statistical study nor is it my 'theory'. The photo was offered as one example of hundreds of thousands that went into production airplanes in Wichita over the past 100 years. And it sure looks like it was an AFTER THOUGHT!| If it was designed to be a bare area I would think the area would have a Nice Straight Lines and be chromate conversion to a Type 2, Class 3. <-- Yes, it is electrically conductive AND resists corrosion. Guess the original design engineers forgot about that? Nope, they considered it at length. Studied the physics and then crafted an assembly line process specification to share the findings of their study with subsequent generations of airplane builders. | If the airplane is operated in a particularly | wicked environs, like the sea coast, the surfaces | on and around such joints will enjoy protection | from accelerated corrosion but if the joint was | properly made up in the first place, the service | life of the joint is probably not extended much. Barry - 'IF' - 'PROBABLY NOT' - Not the words the FAA or a customer wants to hear. We're not talking about FAA or customers. These are simple ideas in physics speaking to the exclusion of moisture and oxygen into contact-critical areas of an electrical connection. Just as an AMP tool strives to make a gas-tight connection between wire strands and terminal, so do our fabrication practices strive for moisture excluding interface in the faying surfaces of a ground connection. Barry - I wish I was drunk so I can blame my "OMG" statement on alcohol. Yes,| Bob, they are a 24 volt bulb in a 12 volt system.| They have very heavy elements - you can take a magnifying glass and see that. Yes, they are marked as 12 / 14 volts. Where does my information come from? It is published in the common sense handbook which fell off your desk. PROOF - Take two bulbs.| Both of the same Wattage and same voltage. Make sure one of the is the standard 12 volt Nav Marker Light. Hook them up to an ample battery. At The Same Time. Which one is brighter? And one it is brighter by quite a bit.| NOT the Nav light! I will offer you $100 for exemplar bulbs which demonstrate the markings and characteristics you cite. I will document, photograph, measure and share my findings from your samples. Further, can you share the ISBN for the "Handbook of Common Sense"? I'd like to add a copy to my bookshelf. | Also discussed in Chapter 12. In fact, we suggested a | keep-warm circuit to hold incandescent lamps at about | 10% of nominal operating voltage when turned OFF. This | keeps the tungsten filament ABOVE the brittle/ductile | transition temperature making the bulb more resistant | to both vibration and warm-up shock when turned ON. Barry - TERRIFIC! But it becomes a moot point. I gather that was NOT incorporated? Even though bizjets have an APU. And it certainly is not what is done in our planes? Stop talking around practicality. Do what works and does not cost the customer outrageous amounts of money. Oh, wait! You did work for Beachcraft!!! Great plane. Just don't expect a low co$t Annual or Repair Bill. And I hope you never have to replace Hydraulic Landing Gear Manifold on a Beach Musketeer. Apollo Mission 13 all over again. You obviously have not read the book. The keep-warm was never proposed for production aircraft. It's value was most attractive to the OBAM aviation community as a cost savings methodology for extending the life of incandescent lamps based on the simple physics describing the behavior of tungsten filaments. You can get your own copy at no charge: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf | Yeah, the air around the airplane can carry a host | of antagonistic stressed into vulnerable locations, | like the metal parts of a lamp socket. Dielectric grease | on the shell and tip of a lamp base is a good thing. So, what happens is the filament breaks but stays in contact with the =C3=A2=98post=C3=A2=99.=C3=82 I have shave seen the problem happen twice and both times it was at the mounting post of the filament. The low current of the DMM checks the bulb as good.=C3=82 But when operational voltage and CURRENT is applied the break heats up and opens. | So does the bulb come back on when it cools only to | immediately go dark again? Barry - I don't know! My eyes can not detect something that happens in micro seconds. The bulbs did NOT show any coming to life, EXCEPT for resistance through the filament.| Twice I have seen this - I am not an electron so I can not see what is happening inside the bulb.| | I only know: 1 - The bulb shows continuity/resistance. 2 - The bulb does not SHOW me any light. 3 - When a new bulb is inserted the system works. I don't think I emptied the 55 gal trash can as yet... If I can find the bulb I'll mail it to you. I'd be delighted to receive it. Will reimburse your expenses. I used to study remnants of light bulbs from car wrecks to see if we could ascertain whether or not the bulb was illuminated when the major impact forces were impressed on the bulb. Once such study helped secure a family's recovery after loss of a daughter squashed in her VW bug by an 18-wheeler. Your example of filament behavior is new and I'd love to add it to my library of knowledge. Bob, you are just not following the K.I.S.S. M.E. principal. If it works why fight it! Bob, I like our banter. It is just your single minded logic that escapes me. I would buy you a drink should we ever meet. I hope we do. Wow! Twice in one email I referenced alcohol, you must think me a drunk? Not at all. But I do think you misunderstand what goes on here. There cannot be any rivalry. This is not a political arena and I seek no 'approvals'. We study properties of materials and management of energy founded in science. I.e the repeatable experiment based on simple-ideas in physics. This is a class-room with roots that go back to the Compuserve AVSIG forum in 1988. The first volumes of the AeroElectric Connection were published about that time too. It has be updated 11 times and over 10,000 copies sold. If there is bad-science in there, I need to know about it so that it can be corrected with the next update. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:47 AM PST US From: Lyn Robertson Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-12 questions I am a long time lurker on this list and have learned a great deal. I am grateful to everyone who contributes. I am building an RV-14A and have pretty much decided to go with an IO-390 and SDS electronic ignition. I plan to fly VFR, but don=99t want to rule out IFR in the future. With that in mind, figure Z-12 in the Aero Electric Connection seems like a good fit. It is elegant in its simplicity yet appears to be a very reliable design. In my case, with no magnetos, a rock solid supply to the ignition modules is paramount. I don=99t plan to have a vacuum system, so I=99ll have a good spot for a second alternator. I have read that non-permanent magnet alternators require a battery for reliable operation. My question is, what happens if the battery fails or becomes disconnected? Will the alternators continue to operate as long as they aren=99t both powered down and back up? Is a second, smaller ba ttery required to ensure alternator operation? Z-12 shows one EI and one mag but I am landing to have two EIs. Where would be the best place to supply power to a second EI? Finally, I plan to have a glass panel and a small LED annunciator panel. Is there a work around for the incandescent bulb requirement of the B&C regulators? Anyway, any advice about how to best provide uninterrupted power to the EIs is greatly appreciated. Thanks! Lyn Corvallis, Oregon ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:03:13 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-12 questions > >I have read that non-permanent magnet >alternators require a battery for reliable operation. not necessarily so . . . but your ship's battery, diligently maintained is the most reliable source of power in the airplane. > My question is, what happens if the battery fails or becomes disconnected? There will be a variant of Z-12 published that takes some cues from Z-13/8 where the second alternator is drives the battery bus as opposed to the main bus. >=C2 Will the alternators continue to operate as >long as they aren=99t both powered down and back >up?=C2 Is a second, smaller battery required to ensure alternator operation? The proposed new z-figure will offer all the advantages of Z-12 (originally designed for TC aircraft) and Z-13 combined. >Z-12 shows one EI and one mag but I am landing to have two EIs. > Where would be the best place to supply power to a second EI? what brand/model ignition systems? > Finally, I plan to have a glass panel and a > small LED annunciator panel. Is there a work > around for the incandescent bulb requirement of the B&C regulators? Yes. Plan for TWO LR3A-14 alternator controllers. NOT one LR3 and one SB1 Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:14:43 PM PST US From: Lyn Robertson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-12 questions Thanks for the quick response! I am currently planning to use dual SDS CPI EI. Lyn On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 11:08 Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > I have read that non-permanent magnet alternators require a battery for > reliable operation. > > > not necessarily so . . . but your ship's battery, > diligently maintained is the most reliable source > of power in the airplane. > > My question is, what happens if the battery fails or becomes disconnecte d? > > > There will be a variant of Z-12 published that takes > some cues from Z-13/8 where the second alternator is > drives the battery bus as opposed to the main bus. > > =C3=82 Will the alternators continue to operate as long as they aren=C3 =A2=82=AC=84=A2t both > powered down and back up?=C3=82 Is a second, smaller battery required to ensure > alternator operation? > > > The proposed new z-figure will offer all the advantages > of Z-12 (originally designed for TC aircraft) and > Z-13 combined. > > > Z-12 shows one EI and one mag but I am landing to have two EIs. > > > Where would be the best place to supply power to a second EI? > > > what brand/model ignition systems? > > Finally, I plan to have a glass panel and a small LED annunciator panel. > Is there a work around for the incandescent bulb requirement of the B&C > regulators? > > > Yes. > > Plan for TWO LR3A-14 alternator controllers. > NOT one LR3 and one SB1 > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:29:35 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 questions From: "user9253" > I have read that non-permanent magnet alternators require a battery for reliable operation Substitute "stable" for "reliable". Without a battery, the alternation output could vary plus and minus one volt, in other words, unstable. But the alternator will keep running without a battery until the alternator is shut off or engine RPM is too low. One electronic ignition could be connected to the battery bus. The other EI could be connected to the Essential bus. Yes, there is a work around for substituting a LED for incandescent. Bob has drawn diagrams in the past. Basically a load resistor is connected in parallel with the LED. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483811#483811 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:34:29 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-12 questions > >=C2 what brand/model ignition systems? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:07:56 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-12 questions From: Charlie England On 10/14/2018 1:01 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> I have read that non-permanent magnet alternators require a battery >> for reliable operation. > > not necessarily so . . . but your ship's battery, > diligently maintained is the most reliable source > of power in the airplane. > >> My question is, what happens if the battery fails or becomes >> disconnected? > > There will be a variant of Z-12 published that takes > some cues from Z-13/8 where the second alternator is > drives the battery bus as opposed to the main bus. > >> Will the alternators continue to operate as long as they arent >> both powered down and back up? Is a second, smaller battery >> required to ensure alternator operation? > > The proposed new z-figure will offer all the advantages > of Z-12 (originally designed for TC aircraft) and > Z-13 combined. > > >> Z-12 shows one EI and one mag but I am landing to have two EIs. > >> Where would be the best place to supply power to a second EI? > > what brand/model ignition systems? > >> Finally, I plan to have a glass panel and a small LED annunciator >> panel. Is there a work around for the incandescent bulb requirement >> of the B&C regulators? > > Yes. > > Plan for TWO LR3A-14 alternator controllers. > NOT one LR3 and one SB1 > > Bob . . . > That's good news; I've tried to do something similar to my electrically dependent auto engine conversion that has two identical alternators. Looking forward to seeing it looks like with your more experienced eye on it. You can expect a lot more demand for this; more and more people are using either the SDS or other full-electronic engine controllers, even on traditional engines. Charlie --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:17:19 PM PST US From: Lyn Robertson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-12 questions Hi Bob, sorry, I thought I answered that... the ignition system I plan to use is made by SDS (Simple Digital Systems) out of Canada. The Model is CPI (coil pack ignition) for 4 cylinder Lycomings. http://www.sdsefi.com/cpi.html Lyn On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 12:40 Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > =C3=82 what brand/model ignition systems? > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:47:37 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-12 questions At 04:14 PM 10/14/2018, you wrote: >Hi Bob, >sorry, I thought I answered that... =C2 the >ignition system I plan to use is made by SDS >(Simple Digital Systems) out of Canada. The >Model is CPI (coil pack ignition) for 4 cylinder Lycomings.=C2 > >http://www.sdsefi.com/cpi.html=C2 > >Lyn Okay, looked over the website but didn't see any data on current consumption. Are these numbers available to you? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:56:27 PM PST US From: Lyn Robertson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-12 questions I=99ll see if I can get those numbers from Ross at SDS. Thanks. Lyn On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 17:52 Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 04:14 PM 10/14/2018, you wrote: > > Hi Bob, > sorry, I thought I answered that... =C3=82 the ignition system I plan to use is > made by SDS (Simple Digital Systems) out of Canada. The Model is CPI (coi l > pack ignition) for 4 cylinder Lycomings.=C3=82 > > http://www.sdsefi.com/cpi.html=C3=82 > > Lyn > > > Okay, looked over the website but didn't > see any data on current consumption. Are > these numbers available to you? > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:48 PM PST US From: Lyn Robertson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-12 questions I found this... Low current draw/ long spark duration. 4 cylinder coil pack and CPI draw about 1.2 amps at 2500 rpm. Lyn On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 17:52 Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 04:14 PM 10/14/2018, you wrote: > > Hi Bob, > sorry, I thought I answered that... =C3=82 the ignition system I plan to use is > made by SDS (Simple Digital Systems) out of Canada. The Model is CPI (coi l > pack ignition) for 4 cylinder Lycomings.=C3=82 > > http://www.sdsefi.com/cpi.html=C3=82 > > Lyn > > > Okay, looked over the website but didn't > see any data on current consumption. Are > these numbers available to you? > > > Bob . . . > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.