---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 10/18/18: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:14 AM - Re: Total Power Failure? (jonlaury) 2. 10:49 AM - Re: Total Power Failure? (Bill Watson) 3. 10:53 AM - Re: Re: Total Power Failure? (Charlie England) 4. 11:15 AM - Thermocouple question (argoldman@aol.com) 5. 11:48 AM - New Z-figure (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 11:57 AM - Re: Thermocouple question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 12:46 PM - Re: New Z-figure (Mark Wheeler) 8. 01:32 PM - Re: New Z-figure (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 02:17 PM - Re: Thermocouple question (argoldman@aol.com) 10. 02:22 PM - Re: New Z-figure (Mark Wheeler) 11. 07:32 PM - Re: New Z-figure (Charlie England) 12. 09:00 PM - Re: New Z-figure (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:07 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Total Power Failure? From: "jonlaury" a.s.elliott(at)cox.net wrote: > ... > > On the other hand, the AFS 3400 EFIS back-up battery is an unspecified internal lithium-ion device. I guess you have to open it up to find out if is an off-the-shelf battery or a custom. ... > > Andy > > ------------------------ > Or call AFS (now Dynon) and ask [Wink] Search for Advanced Flight Systems, http://www.advanced-flight-systems.com/Support/AF-3000support/replacing-clock-battery.pdf "We have found that the internal clock battery lasts from 6 to 10 year in a display. Finding a BR chemistry battery is important over the CR type due to the performance in high temperature environments and stable voltage over battery life. CR-1225 batteies will need replacement more often." Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483858#483858 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:49:00 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Total Power Failure? From: Bill Watson On 10/17/2018 2:41 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 11:09 AM 10/17/2018, you wrote: >> At least the designers of the now-defunct Precision Airmotive system >> used a commonly available 12V SLA battery that is easy and >> inexpensive J to replace every couple of years, and the system has >> checks for back-up battery voltage built in. Got one in the hangar >> that I plug into the charger about 1/month. >> >> On the other hand, the AFS 3400 EFIS back-up battery is an >> unspecified internal lithium-ion device. I guess you have to open it >> up to find out if is an off-the-shelf battery or a custom. At least >> when you go on internal, the unit displays a battery capacity >> indicator, which can be checked every time you shut the plane down. > > Sounds like thoughtful design . . . > > Bob . . > And a thoughtful discussion as well. I always find these informative and useful in the ongoing management of my OBAM RV-10 with a Z-14 (dual batts, buses, and alts). I am about to change my panel by swapping out a backup cluster of a round guage ASI, Alt, and ADI (with backup battery) for a small format non-TSO's PFD with internal AHRS (The HORIS from Karnardia). That will make my panel 100% dependent on the Z-14 electrical system since I did not opt for an internal backup battery on any of my instruments (including 3 GRT EFISs). I'm confident about doing this because of the confidence I have in the Z-14 design and its operation. After much screwing up, I've also built up confidence in maintaining the 2 Odyssey 680 batteries. For the batteries I now simply follow the voltage checks outlined by the manufacturer and replace when a battery falls short. I should mention that I'm not discarding the round gauge backup cluster for kicks. For one I wasn't completely confident with the ADI as a backup for keeping the wings level. But the main reason was to free up some panel real estate for a larger GRT EFIS/PFD screen. For some reason, the eyes aren't improving with age. The nagging question is why do I feel I need to backup the GRT EFISs? I have 3 of them on the panel, 2 easily viewed by the pilot and all of them capable of acting as a PFD, moving map or engine monitor, or all 3 at one time. The answer is one I don't fully buy into but lingers out there; what if there is a software 'bug' or 'hack' that causes all 3 units to fail simultaneously? Never heard of that occurring with any brand of EFIS (?) but I will have a backup PFD with different hw/sw to backup the primaries. But again, no backup batteries. Total dependency on the Z-14. Bill "flying an electrically dependent RV10 fired by dual Slick mags" Watson --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:53:41 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Total Power Failure? From: Charlie England On 10/18/2018 11:13 AM, jonlaury wrote: > > > a.s.elliott(at)cox.net wrote: >> ... >> >> On the other hand, the AFS 3400 EFIS back-up battery is an unspecified internal lithium-ion device. I guess you have to open it up to find out if is an off-the-shelf battery or a custom. ... >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------ >> > > Or call AFS (now Dynon) and ask [Wink] > > Search for Advanced Flight Systems, http://www.advanced-flight-systems.com/Support/AF-3000support/replacing-clock-battery.pdf > > "We have found that the internal clock battery lasts from 6 to 10 year in a display. Finding a BR chemistry battery is important over the CR type due to the performance in high temperature environments and stable voltage over battery life. CR-1225 batteies will need replacement more often." > Big difference between a clock battery and the operational backup battery.... --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:15:07 AM PST US From: argoldman@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple question =C2- Greetings all, =C2- Can a single thermocouple (K or H) run two different indicators (efises o e ifi)? or is there a circuitry that will make this possible? =C2- Rich ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:48:16 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: New Z-figure >> The proposed new z-figure will offer all the advantages >> of Z-12 (originally designed for TC aircraft) and >> Z-13 combined. > >What's the timeframe on this being published? > >--Rick I've been stirring that pot for several weeks and I think I'm getting close. Here's revision 3 to the drawing . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z02P3_Preliminary.pdf Critical review most welcome . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:57:14 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple question At 01:14 PM 10/18/2018, you wrote: >Greetings all, > >Can a single thermocouple (K or H) run two different indicators >(efises o eifi)? or is there a circuitry that will make this possible? > >Rich Generally yes. Assuming the indicators are modern, electronic displays with high impedance inputs. The legacy steam gages that would read thermocouples actually DEMAND a certain amount of current from the TC hence paralleling instruments is problematic. I'd venture to guess that any of the glass screen displays can share thermocouples. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:44 PM PST US From: Mark Wheeler Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Z-figure Bob, Is it possible to obtain a software version of your electric symbols if we w ant to spin our own variant of your z-diagrams? Mark Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 18, 2018, at 11:47 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > >>> The proposed new z-figure will offer all the advantages >>> of Z-12 (originally designed for TC aircraft) and >>> Z-13 combined. >> >> What's the timeframe on this being published? >> >> --Rick > > > I've been stirring that pot for several weeks and > I think I'm getting close. Here's revision 3 > to the drawing . . . > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z02P3_Preliminary. pdf > > Critical review most welcome . . . > > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:32:27 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Z-figure At 02:46 PM 10/18/2018, you wrote: >Bob, >Is it possible to obtain a software version of your electric symbols >if we want to spin our own variant of your z-diagrams? >Mark https://tinyurl.com/og7ztjl Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:17:17 PM PST US From: argoldman@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple question Thanks with a big sigh of relief =C2- Rich =C2- In a message dated 10/18/2018 1:57:52 PM Central Standard Time, nuckolls.bo b@aeroelectric.com writes: =C2- At 01:14 PM 10/18/2018, you wrote: Greetings all, Can a single thermocouple (K or H) run two different indicators (efises o eifi)? or is there a circuitry that will make this possible? Rich =C2- Generally yes. Assuming the indicators are modern, =C2- electronic displays with high impedance inputs. =C2- The legacy steam gages that would read thermocouples =C2- actually DEMAND a certain amount of current from the =C2- TC hence paralleling instruments is problematic. =C2- I'd venture to guess that any of the glass screen =C2- displays can share thermocouples. =C2- =C2- Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:22:55 PM PST US From: Mark Wheeler Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Z-figure Thank you!! > On Oct 18, 2018, at 1:31 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 02:46 PM 10/18/2018, you wrote: >> Bob, >> Is it possible to obtain a software version of your electric symbols if we want to spin our own variant of your z-diagrams? >> Mark > > > https://tinyurl.com/og7ztjl > > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:54 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Z-figure From: Charlie England On 10/18/2018 1:47 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>> The proposed new z-figure will offer all the advantages >>> of Z-12 (originally designed for TC aircraft) and >>> Z-13 combined. >> >> What's the timeframe on this being published? >> >> --Rick > > > I've been stirring that pot for several weeks and > I think I'm getting close. Here's revision 3 > to the drawing . . . > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z02P3_Preliminary.pdf > > > Critical review most welcome . . . > > > Bob . . . > Assuming this the one for electronic injection electrically dependent engines, is there any merit in a separate bus for the engine? I'm trying to do this in my auto-conversion powered RV-7. My desire and logic (or what I hope is logic :-) ) is that the airframe can go dark and the engine will still run, with an alternator charging the battery. I'm trying to mimic what you see in a 'typical' airframe with a magneto ignition a/c engine, where the master can be flipped off and the engine still runs. I have a high current 'engine master' switch that directly connects the battery to the engine bus, and a conventional looking master contactor that feeds the 'aircraft bus'. Only the starter is fed by the master contactor; all other engine functions are fed by the engine master switch. One alternator conventionally feeds the load side of the master contactor; the other (identical model) alternator feeds through its alternator contactor to the battery side of the master contactor. There is a high current crossfeed switch between the two buses, to cover the possibility of 'engine master' switch failure. Am I overthinking it? Charlie --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:41 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Z-figure >I have a high current 'engine master' switch that directly connects >the battery to the engine bus, and a conventional looking master >contactor that feeds the 'aircraft bus'. Only the starter is fed by >the master contactor; all other engine functions are fed by the >engine master switch. One alternator conventionally feeds the load >side of the master contactor; the other (identical model) alternator >feeds through its alternator contactor to the battery side of the >master contactor. There is a high current crossfeed switch between >the two buses, to cover the possibility of 'engine master' switch failure. > If it were my airplane, I'd run engine critical loads directly from the battery bus with each of those loads enjoying it's own feeder protection and switch. This keeps the engine running with all other switches off. No relays or contactors in series with the feeders. The Z02 battery bus enjoys THREE energy sources with minimal sharing of hardware. All three sources are pre-flight testable.` Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.