AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Mon 10/22/18


Total Messages Posted: 19



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 04:55 AM - Re: Stuck starter questions (Richard Girard)
     2. 05:30 AM - Re: Stuck starter questions (user9253)
     3. 05:32 AM - Re: Re: Stuck starter questions (Alec Myers)
     4. 05:47 AM - Re: Alternator OV disconnect (user9253)
     5. 07:17 AM - Re: Re: Alternator OV disconnect (C&K)
     6. 07:57 AM - Re: Stuck starter questions (C&K)
     7. 09:12 AM - Re: Stuck starter questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     8. 09:16 AM - Re: Alternator OV disconnect (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     9. 09:48 AM - Re: Alternator OV disconnect (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    10. 11:10 AM - Re: Stuck starter questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    11. 11:41 AM - Re: Re: Stuck starter questions (skywagon185guy)
    12. 01:11 PM - new z-figure thread (Charlie England)
    13. 01:28 PM - Re: new z-figure thread (Rick Beebe)
    14. 02:01 PM - Re: new z-figure thread (Charlie England)
    15. 03:13 PM - Re: Re: IVO current limiter project (Todd Bartrim)
    16. 06:57 PM - Re: new z-figure thread (Art Zemon)
    17. 07:15 PM - Re: new z-figure thread (don van santen)
    18. 07:19 PM - Re: new z-figure thread (don van santen)
    19. 09:23 PM - Re: new z-figure thread (Charlie England)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 04:55:12 AM PST US
    From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Stuck starter questions
    Going from memory here but as I recall the diode is there to prevent arcing of the switch contacts controlling the solenoid and not the solenoid itself. I'm sure that that info is in the archives. Try a search for diode or diode and contactor to be sure. Rick On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 2:04 PM Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote: > Can=99t speak for how common this is overall, but I=99ve had a stuck starter > solenoid on both my TC aircraft. > > > On Oct 21, 2018, at 13:38, Pat Little <roughleg@gmail.com> wrote: > > Many of the Z diagrams show the starter current passing thru the master > contactor as well as the starter contactor, and I gather this is to allow > for the possibility of the starter contactor welding itself shut. If that > were to occur then the pilot can disengage the starter motor by turning t he > master switch off (having a "starter engaged" light and an e-bus alt feed > would both be useful for this scenario). > > However, I see that Z-20 shows the starter current direct from the batter y > to the starter contactor and not thru the master. Z-20 is for a Jabiru > system, and I have a Jabiru engine so I figure (no pun intended) that I > could use the Z-20 arrangement, although I don't know why Jabirus would b e > different in this respect. > > So, here are my questions: How unlikely is a welded contactor? How well > does the diode prevent this from happening? Is there a way to tell if the > diode has failed open-circuit? > > Pat > > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:30:06 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Stuck starter questions
    From: "user9253" <fransew@gmail.com>
    I agree with Rick. One way to test a diode is to remove it from the circuit. Then put it in series with a test light and battery. The light should illuminate when the diode is orientated one way and not illuminate when reversed. Trying to start an engine with a weak battery can lead to welded contacts. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483928#483928


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:32:42 AM PST US
    From: Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com>
    Subject: Re: Stuck starter questions
    >>Trying to start an engine with a weak battery can lead to welded contacts. Yes of the two occasions this happened to me, one was because of a weak battery. The other was caused by an intermittent dead short (yes!) in the starter motor.


    Message 4


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    Time: 05:47:28 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Alternator OV disconnect
    From: "user9253" <fransew@gmail.com>
    Z-16 has the relay interrupting the dynamo AC. So the relay could interrupt either the AC or DC. If the voltage rectifier/regulator were smoking, then interrupting the AC would be better. Other than that, either way should be OK. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483930#483930


    Message 5


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    Time: 07:17:00 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Alternator OV disconnect
    From: C&K <yellowduckduo@gmail.com>
    Yes and interupting AC allows a smaller less robust relay than what is required to reliably interupt DC current. Rectifier/regulators smoke just often enough that I use an OV/On Off relay (forward of firewall) on the AC supply to it and a C/B near the battery to limit current from the battery. There has been some discussion in the past on this. Ken On 22/10/2018 8:46 AM, user9253 wrote: > > Z-16 has the relay interrupting the dynamo AC. So the relay could interrupt either the AC or DC. If the voltage rectifier/regulator were smoking, then interrupting the AC would be better. Other than that, either way should be OK. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483930#483930 > >


    Message 6


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    Time: 07:57:19 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Stuck starter questions
    From: C&K <yellowduckduo@gmail.com>
    Everything that I have newer than my 70 year old Ford has contacts built into the starter and no separate starter contactor. Both systems can weld shut but it is pretty rare with the built in contactor IMO. Despite having integral contacts on my starter, I do run the starter current through the battery contactor on my aircraft as it was convenient to do it, it added miniscule resistance to the circuit, and (in my case) it makes the heavy starter wire go dead when the master is off. I would recommend that scheme if a standard 200 amp battery contactor is used or if the battery was inaccessible and could not be disconnected within a minute or three. I would not argue that it is essential. I would take another look at this if using a Li battery. Either way the important thing is to make sure system voltage recovers, or battery is charging after the engine starts (or at least before takeoff)! Phooey on starter engaged lights. Even paralled with the coil, diodes can often be tested in circuit with a nominal one volt low current source or ohmeter as they typically conduct at 0.6 volt or less but I don't bother unless it is physically damaged or suspect for some reason. They seem to last forever or occasionally simply blow apart when shorted. Ken On 21/10/2018 1:38 PM, Pat Little wrote: > Many of the Z diagrams show the starter current passing thru the > master contactor as well as the starter contactor, and I gather this > is to allow for the possibility of the starter contactor welding > itself shut. If that were to occur then the pilot can disengage the > starter motor by turning the master switch off (having a "starter > engaged" light and an e-bus alt feed would both be useful for this > scenario). > > However, I see that Z-20 shows the starter current direct from the > battery to the starter contactor and not thru the master. Z-20 is for > a Jabiru system, and I have a Jabiru engine so I figure (no pun > intended) that I could use the Z-20 arrangement, although I don't know > why Jabirus would be different in this respect. > > So, here are my questions: How unlikely is a welded contactor? How > well does the diode prevent this from happening? Is there a way to > tell if the diode has failed open-circuit? > > Pat > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 09:12:07 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Stuck starter questions
    At 01:58 PM 10/21/2018, you wrote: >Can=99t speak for how common this is overall, >but I=99ve had a stuck starter solenoid on both my TC aircraft. It's one of those pesky FMEA thingys . . . to get your product/design qualified onto a sophisticated TC aircraft you need to demonstrate or at least calculate that failure of the device presents ZERO safety of flight implications because it's either (a) insignificant or (b) is backed up. In the case of conducting FMEA, you ASSUME that it will fail . . . another way of acknowledging that the risk of failure is not zero. The other path to qualification Nirvana is the so called reliability study. One puts on the green eye-shade, digs out their Hogwarts-issue magic wand and divines a failure rate for EVERY component of the of device down to the solder joints. Then you put them in this big pot (computer) and it simmer to a predicted failure rate for the constellation of components. If one achieves failure rates on the order of one per million flight hours, you can get onto most flying machines, churn out a one-per- billion-flight-hours design and you're good to go to Pluto. We lowly tin benders and electron herders find it more practical to go the FMEA route . . . especially when the not-zero=risk assumption is validated with demonstrated anecdotes from history. Hence the legacy policy of routing starter current through the battery contactor (assuming there is one). There are special cases like Z20 where the system's energy source is limited. VariEz airplanes flying and SD-8 as sole source of engine driven power is one example. There are other examples of PM alternator where we'd rather not toss off 0.8 Amps of current just to hold the battery contactor closed; hence no contactor. It doesn't represent a terrible risk . . . but if one would LIKE to emulate the battery contactor's function with a zero energy budget, consider a battery switch. The TriPacer in which I studied back in the dark ages had no battery -OR- starter contactor . . . they were both manual switches. Here's one example of a suitable switch https://tinyurl.com/ycechd8f I've updated Z20 to reflect this configuration. Hmmmm . . . last time that drawing was updated was 10 years ago . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z20M.pdf Bob . . .


    Message 8


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    Time: 09:16:45 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Alternator OV disconnect
    At 10:01 PM 10/21/2018, you wrote: >In the (British) Light Aircraft Association=99s >technical leaflet on electrical systems it says >it=99s better to disconnect a permanent-magnet >alternator by interrupting the AC going into the >regulator than the DC output from the regulator. >The Z diagrams that include PM alternators seem >to show the OV relay downstream of the regulator. Any thoughts on this? I posited that notion some years ago and began to incorporate that philosophy as the z-figures were updated . . . See Z16. Hmmm . . . just updated Z20 and didn't get that feature incorporated. Either way, it's not a really big deal but yes, breaking the AC leads from the PM alternator is a bit more 'sanitary' . . . Back to the cad screen . . . Bob . . .


    Message 9


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    Time: 09:48:06 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Alternator OV disconnect
    > Back to the cad screen . . . > Fixed it . . . Bob . . .


    Message 10


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    Time: 11:10:31 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Stuck starter questions
    >How well does the diode prevent this from happening? Is there a way >to tell if the diode has failed open-circuit? The diode across the coil of a contactor has no significant effect on the life of that device's contacts. An often quoted document by Potter and Brumfield claims that coil suppression techniques can have a deleterious effect on contact life. https://tinyurl.com/yayk835c One of several exemplar figures is shown below: Emacs! When this document was first cited on the AeroElectric List, I went to the bench and captured some relay performance traces of my own: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/spike.pdf https://tinyurl.com/yb6s6l7c <https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwip2P__z5reAhUOLKwKHQBuDpcQFjAAegQIChAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aeroelectric.com%2Farticles%2Fspikecatcher.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1fSB4o1iKTQo5ZueJzNvVN>www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spikecatcher.pdf I'm mystified by the trace pictures in the P&B document. They fail to illustrate any drop-out-delay caused by addition of the simple catch diode. At the same time, the figures and text purport to show how coil suppression techniques can affect CONTACT SPREADING VELOCITY which is the critical to contact life. They also fail to show any contact bounce on closing. If I were a physics prof grading these illustrations as part of a student's work-product, I would ask them to 'show me' back in the lab. I was able to show that contact spreading velocity does not change appreciably with variations in coil suppression technique (for reasons that have to do with MAGNETICS and little to do with coil current). The short answer is, worrying about the diode is not useful. They seldom fail and when they do fail, they'll fail shorted . . . not open . . . and may even blow apart as noted by another Lister. The PRIMARY reason for contact welding is a soggy battery. So if your starter fails to get the prop whipping around right smartly . . . STOP and charge/replace battery or plug in ground power. Bob . . .


    Message 11


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    Time: 11:41:06 AM PST US
    From: skywagon185guy <skywagon185@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Stuck starter questions
    Joe, You made a remarkable statement about weak batteries, starting, and contactor contact problems. I hope everyone reads your remark and remembers this potential problem. Too many try to do starts via a weak battery and cold engines. This will eventually do contact damage in the starter contactor. On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 5:34 AM user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote: > > I agree with Rick. > One way to test a diode is to remove it from the circuit. Then put it in > series with a test light and battery. The light should illuminate when the > diode is orientated one way and not illuminate when reversed. > Trying to start an engine with a weak battery can lead to welded > contacts. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483928#483928 > >


    Message 12


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    Time: 01:11:57 PM PST US
    From: Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
    Subject: new z-figure thread
    *Sorry for the re-post of the message below, but I don't get my own posts back from the matronics server.Can anyone tell me if they got a .pdf attachment with the previous post of this message?Thanks,CharliePlease forgive the rough looking drawing; I've never had time to learn a cad program, so I tweaked a z drawing with MS Paint to create the attached. Ignore the fused feeder values on the engine bus; most are artifacts from my cut & paste operation. Both alternators in the drawing are auto-style internally regulated; the engine comes with an IR alternator, and I just hung a 2nd where the air conditioner compressor used to reside. As yet unresolved in this draft is the fact that both OV modules can 'see' both alternators. My original intent was to run both alternators all the time, but I may modify that idea to primary/backup. My controller (from Real World Solutions, specifically for Mazda rotary engines) does have primary/secondary controllers in one box, but a single power feed to the controllers. The RWS controllers have been set up this way for over 20 years. Over the years, multiple fliers have had controller issues requiring switching to the backup controller, but none have ever had a power supply failure to the box caused by an issue with one controller. If the controller box had separate power feeds to each controller, it would obviously beg for running one from the a/c bus, but I'm not sure that would be a good thing, from the standpoint of trying to keep the systems similar (as possible) to old habit driven pilots. The controllers' control of the injectors & ignition coils is switched by an external control, which drives a bank of internal relays to do the switching (I believe this is how the ones for a/c engines do it, as well). Power to each injector & coil is individually fused; the controller switches the ground side of the injectors/coils. There are dual Walbro high pressure fuel pumps, each with it's own fuse/switch. The choice to have an engine master was driven by the same logic mentioned earlier. Just as the airframe can go dark without affecting the engine, a typical a/c can shut off the engine by turning a key or flipping a pair of mag switches. The engine master switch is my 'mag switch'. But I'm not married to this, is there good reason to change? If the above isn't clear, I can try to do a rough drawing of power flow to the engine's power feeders. Charlie *


    Message 13


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    Time: 01:28:12 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: new z-figure thread
    From: Rick Beebe <rick@beebe.org>
    Yes. On 10/22/2018 4:11 PM, Charlie England wrote: > * > > Sorry for the re-post of the message below, but I don't get my own > posts back from the matronics server. Can anyone tell me if they > got a .pdf attachment with the previous post of this message? > Thanks, Charlie Please forgive the rough looking drawing; I've > never had time to learn a cad program, so I tweaked a z drawing > with MS Paint to create the attached. Ignore the fused feeder > values on the engine bus; most are artifacts from my cut & paste > operation. Both alternators in the drawing are auto-style > internally regulated; the engine comes with an IR alternator, and > I just hung a 2nd where the air conditioner compressor used to > reside. As yet unresolved in this draft is the fact that both OV > modules can 'see' both alternators. My original intent was to run > both alternators all the time, but I may modify that idea to > primary/backup. My controller (from Real World Solutions, > specifically for Mazda rotary engines) does have primary/secondary > controllers in one box, but a single power feed to the > controllers. The RWS controllers have been set up this way for > over 20 years. Over the years, multiple fliers have had controller > issues requiring switching to the backup controller, but none have > ever had a power supply failure to the box caused by an issue with > one controller. If the controller box had separate power feeds to > each controller, it would obviously beg for running one from the > a/c bus, but I'm not sure that would be a good thing, from the > standpoint of trying to keep the systems similar (as possible) to > old habit driven pilots. The controllers' control of the injectors > & ignition coils is switched by an external control, which drives > a bank of internal relays to do the switching (I believe this is > how the ones for a/c engines do it, as well). Power to each > injector & coil is individually fused; the controller switches the > ground side of the injectors/coils. There are dual Walbro high > pressure fuel pumps, each with it's own fuse/switch. The choice to > have an engine master was driven by the same logic mentioned > earlier. Just as the airframe can go dark without affecting the > engine, a typical a/c can shut off the engine by turning a key or > flipping a pair of mag switches. The engine master switch is my > 'mag switch'. But I'm not married to this, is there good reason to > change? If the above isn't clear, I can try to do a rough drawing > of power flow to the engine's power feeders. Charlie > *


    Message 14


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    Time: 02:01:49 PM PST US
    From: Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: new z-figure thread
    Thanks, Rick. I just emailed Matt about this, & he said nothing in the Matronics system should cause it. I need dig through my settings (on several different computers) to see if I've messed up somewhere. On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 3:33 PM Rick Beebe <rick@beebe.org> wrote: > Yes. > > On 10/22/2018 4:11 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > * Sorry for the re-post of the message below, but I don't get my own posts > back from the matronics server. Can anyone tell me if they got a .pdf > attachment with the previous post of this message? Thanks, Charlie Please > forgive the rough looking drawing; I've never had time to learn a cad > program, so I tweaked a z drawing with MS Paint to create the attached. > Ignore the fused feeder values on the engine bus; most are artifacts from > my cut & paste operation. Both alternators in the drawing are auto-style > internally regulated; the engine comes with an IR alternator, and I just > hung a 2nd where the air conditioner compressor used to reside. As yet > unresolved in this draft is the fact that both OV modules can 'see' both > alternators. My original intent was to run both alternators all the time, > but I may modify that idea to primary/backup. My controller (from Real > World Solutions, specifically for Mazda rotary engines) does have > primary/secondary controllers in one box, but a single power feed to the > controllers. The RWS controllers have been set up this way for over 20 > years. Over the years, multiple fliers have had controller issues requiring > switching to the backup controller, but none have ever had a power supply > failure to the box caused by an issue with one controller. If the > controller box had separate power feeds to each controller, it would > obviously beg for running one from the a/c bus, but I'm not sure that would > be a good thing, from the standpoint of trying to keep the systems similar > (as possible) to old habit driven pilots. The controllers' control of the > injectors & ignition coils is switched by an external control, which drives > a bank of internal relays to do the switching (I believe this is how the > ones for a/c engines do it, as well). Power to each injector & coil is > individually fused; the controller switches the ground side of the > injectors/coils. There are dual Walbro high pressure fuel pumps, each with > it's own fuse/switch. The choice to have an engine master was driven by the > same logic mentioned earlier. Just as the airframe can go dark without > affecting the engine, a typical a/c can shut off the engine by turning a > key or flipping a pair of mag switches. The engine master switch is my 'mag > switch'. But I'm not married to this, is there good reason to change? If > the above isn't clear, I can try to do a rough drawing of power flow to the > engine's power feeders. Charlie * > >


    Message 15


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    Time: 03:13:12 PM PST US
    From: Todd Bartrim <bartrim@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: IVO current limiter project
    I've received a batch of 6 boards and assembled and tested one of them. I found that there is an error on the board. Zener diodes D5 & D9 as well as mosfet Q7 & Q8 are mixed up. Now it makes no difference at all about Q7 & Q8 as they are identical but as for labeling on the board they are mixed up, but the zener diodes D5 & D9 are different, so when assembled as per the board markings, the LED glows dimly as there is grounding current leaking through the 10volt zener diode. It still glows bright when GP1 goes high. Switching D5 & D9 corrects this issue. This can be corrected for these already built boards, by simply altering the schematic diagram, otherwise the .pcb file for the boards could be corrected. I would recommend go with the first option, as it is quite expensive to have these boards produced by expressPCB, but they do provide along with the finished product the gerber files that will allow future boards to be produced by much less expensive sources. I'd be happy to provide these files to Bob to post with the other project files on aeroelectric.com to save costs for future builders. But even after correcting this issue I'm still having problems with the circuit, that I suspect are a result of my ineptitude in compiling C into hex. I've contacted Paul Fisher for his guidance on this, as he wrote the original code. The problems are surprisingly similar to one that was reported here long ago when the first iteration of this project was all hardware based without the microcontroller; When I apply power to drive the prop motor, it will move for approx .5 second before GP1 goes high, tripping the circuit. It does this for both directions. But measured current is only a max of 6.5 amps of inrush current with about 5 amps of continuous current. The behavior of this would suggest that possibly I may have correctly compiled the code as it should trip in .5 second of high current (.5volt across R16a-d). So possibly this just needs to be changed in the code. After several trips up to the airport to test this, I built a bench test set-up using an electric water pump for a load as it has very similar current draw as the IVOprop motor, so that will expedite further testing. I just heard from Paul and he will take a close look at my hex code, so hopefully it will be a simple error in my hex code. I'll update soon.... Todd Bartrim On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 12:15 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 09:29 PM 9/17/2018, you wrote: > > The last 2 posts I saw on this were these 2: > > Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > Fri 7/21/2017, 12:23 PM > Got the board stuffed. > > http://tinyurl.com/ycemckye > > I need to get my pic programmer up and running > for a couple other programs. I'll pop a 9023 chip > and see how critter works. > > Bob . . . > > AND > > Paul A. Fisher <paulf@hughes.net> > Wed 10/4/2017, 11:53 AM > Bob and all, > Did we ever finish this project? The message attached below was the last > one I heard about it. I don't know if that means it worked, that it didn't > work and we gave up, or everyone just lost interest. > I don't have an IVO prop, so I don't need the limiter. I just wondered if > the software that I contributed needs any additional refinement. > Paul A. Fisher > Q-200, N17PF > RV-7A, N18PF > > If there was a limiter produced I didn't see it. > > Deems > > > Okay guys . . . looks like I dropped the ball on this > one. I'll hide behind the 'too many projects' phenomenon. > Got another grand-kid living with us for a year to > try alternatives to Wichita schools . . . etc. But > that's not an excuse. I'll dig around and get that > package together. > > I know Paul had sent me some POC software and I > don't recall having loaded it into a chip. We'll > get that pot back on a front burner today. > > > Bob . . . >


    Message 16


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    Time: 06:57:18 PM PST US
    From: Art Zemon <art@zemon.name>
    Subject: Re: new z-figure thread
    Charlie, You have been bitten by a well-known Gmail "issue." Gmail silently deletes the copy of the message that comes back to you from the Matronics system. There is no workaround; you just have to trust that it worked. -- Art Z. On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 4:18 PM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks, Rick. I just emailed Matt about this, & he said nothing in the > Matronics system should cause it. I need dig through my settings (on > several different computers) to see if I've messed up somewhere. > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."*


    Message 17


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    Time: 07:15:41 PM PST US
    From: don van santen <donvansanten@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: new z-figure thread
    Art is correct, I have the same issue. Same problen with Gmail on phone. lap top and desk top. On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 19:01 Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote: > Charlie, > > You have been bitten by a well-known Gmail "issue." Gmail silently deletes > the copy of the message that comes back to you from the Matronics system. > There is no workaround; you just have to trust that it worked. > > -- Art Z. > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 4:18 PM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Thanks, Rick. I just emailed Matt about this, & he said nothing in the >> Matronics system should cause it. I need dig through my settings (on >> several different computers) to see if I've messed up somewhere. >> > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."* >


    Message 18


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    Time: 07:19:10 PM PST US
    From: don van santen <donvansanten@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: new z-figure thread
    Ok thats weird. The last message sent me the return! On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 19:14 don van santen <donvansanten@gmail.com> wrote: > Art is correct, I have the same issue. Same problen with Gmail on phone. > lap top and desk top. > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 19:01 Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote: > >> Charlie, >> >> You have been bitten by a well-known Gmail "issue." Gmail silently >> deletes the copy of the message that comes back to you from the Matronics >> system. There is no workaround; you just have to trust that it worked. >> >> -- Art Z. >> >> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 4:18 PM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks, Rick. I just emailed Matt about this, & he said nothing in the >>> Matronics system should cause it. I need dig through my settings (on >>> several different computers) to see if I've messed up somewhere. >>> >> >> -- >> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >> >> *"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."* >> >


    Message 19


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    Time: 09:23:34 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: new z-figure thread
    From: Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
    Yep, I got a copy of the email asking if anyone got that attachment=2E Very strange=2E =81=A3Sent from BlueMail =8B On Oct 22, 2018, 9:23 P M, at 9:23 PM, don van santen <donvansanten@gmail=2Ecom> wrote: >Ok thats w eird=2E The last message sent me the return! > >On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 19:14 don van santen <donvansanten@gmail=2Ecom> >wrote: > >> Art is correct, I h ave the same issue=2E Same problen with Gmail on >phone=2E >> lap top and d esk top=2E >> >> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 19:01 Art Zemon <art@zemon=2Ename> w rote: >> >>> Charlie, >>> >>> You have been bitten by a well-known Gmail "i ssue=2E" Gmail silently >>> deletes the copy of the message that comes back to you from the >Matronics >>> system=2E There is no workaround; you just have to trust that it >worked=2E >>> >>> -- Art Z=2E >>> >>> On Mon, Oc t 22, 2018 at 4:18 PM Charlie England ><ceengland7@gmail=2Ecom> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks, Rick=2E I just emailed Matt about this, & he said nothing in >the >>>> Matronics system should cause it=2E I need dig through my sett ings >(on >>>> several different computers) to see if I've messed up somewh ere=2E >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon=2Ecom/ >>> >>> *"We d o not see the world as it is=2E We see the world as we are=2E"* >>> >>




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