AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Mon 11/05/18


Total Messages Posted: 18



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     0. 04:30 AM - Coming Soon - The List of Contributors - Please Make A Contribution Today! (Matt Dralle)
     1. 08:07 AM - A rich slice of aviation history (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     2. 11:04 AM - Re: Dual Battery Dual Alternator Power Distribution System (lwesterlund)
     3. 11:05 AM - Re: Dual Battery Dual Alternator Power Distribution System (bobmeyers)
     4. 11:55 AM - Re: Re: Dual Battery Dual Alternator Power Distribution System (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     5. 12:17 PM - Complex Electrical for Lancair (scuperhead)
     6. 12:41 PM - Re: Re: Dual Battery Dual Alternator Power Distribution System (Robert Reed)
     7. 01:10 PM - Re: Complex Electrical for Lancair (Henry Hallam)
     8. 01:51 PM - Re: Re: Dual Battery Dual Alternator Power Distribution System (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     9. 02:09 PM - Re: Complex Electrical for Lancair (Craig Schulze)
    10. 03:09 PM - Re: Complex Electrical for Lancair (Craig Schulze)
    11. 03:11 PM - Re: Dual Battery Dual Alternator Power Distribution System (lwesterlund)
    12. 03:17 PM - Re: Complex Electrical for Lancair (scuperhead)
    13. 05:24 PM - Re: Re: Complex Electrical for Lancair (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    14. 06:36 PM - Re: Complex Electrical for Lancair (scuperhead)
    15. 06:57 PM - Re: Complex Electrical for Lancair (A R Goldman)
    16. 08:23 PM - Re: Re: Complex Electrical for Lancair (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    17. 08:53 PM - Re: Complex Electrical for Lancair (scuperhead)
 
 
 


Message 0


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    Time: 04:30:34 AM PST US
    From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
    Subject: Coming Soon - The List of Contributors - Please Make
    A Contribution Today! Each year at the end of the List Fund Raiser, I post a message acknowledging everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation for the Lists. Please take a moment and assure that your name is on that List of Contributors (LOC)! As a number of members have pointed out over the years, the List seems at least as valuable a building / entertainment tool as your typical magazine subscription! Assure that your name is on this year's LOC! Show others that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using your Credit card or Paypal on the Secure Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus far in this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps these Lists going and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about how the Lists have helped you! Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator


    Message 1


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    Time: 08:07:05 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: A rich slice of aviation history
    https://youtu.be/x4PlcKf-XRw Bob . . .


    Message 2


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    Time: 11:04:15 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Dual Battery Dual Alternator Power Distribution
    System
    From: "lwesterlund" <lance.westerlund@yahoo.com>
    Mauledriver, Thanks for the quick and detailed response. I completely agree that Z-14 is an amazingly robust architecture. The one limitation, as I see it, is that it doesnt take advantage of the dual power feeds for capable equipment. You wrote: But I initially had my dual input gear (the 3 GRTs and the G430) connected to both buses but over time came to understand that it was unnecessary redundancy with the cross feed capability and sometimes it was a liability. Maybe we can discuss the experiences that led me there later. Please help me to understand why using the redundant feeds might be a bad idea. Thanks. Lance Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484447#484447


    Message 3


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    Time: 11:05:08 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Dual Battery Dual Alternator Power Distribution
    System
    From: "bobmeyers" <bobmeyers@meyersfamily.org>
    I used Z-14 for my 14. I have over 220 hours on it now and am very pleased with it. It is pretty much a straight up implementation except for not using the automatic cross feed at engine start. My only comment about your proposed set up is your plan for the aux bus. Almost all of my Garmin equipment comes with dual power inputs. I have each go to Bus 1 and Bus 2. There are a few avionics items that don't have dual power inputs. For those I just used a couple of bridge rectifiers and feed them from Bus 1 and Bus 2 just like the ones that have the built in dual power inputs. This technique is shown in the Aeroelectric book. All heavy load items, lights, pitot heat etc are only hooked up to Bus 1 so I would have to manually switch on a cross feed switch to power those with a loss of the main alternator. My only load shedding item is pitot heat, The secondary alternator will handle everything else with no problem. I flip on both buses when entering the airplane and everything is ready to go by the time I have strapped in and am ready to begin the engine startup checklist. I do understand Bob N's preference for a one battery two alternator setup but in my case I elected the heavier Z-14. With my wife and I, full fuel and baggage, we are still 50 pounds under max gross. If the weight was going to be 20 pounds over max gross, I would have used Z-13. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484448#484448


    Message 4


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    Time: 11:55:24 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Dual Battery Dual Alternator Power Distribution
    System >Please help me to understand why using the redundant feeds might be >a bad idea. Thanks. Not necessary . . . already built in . . . There is no bus in Z-14 at risk for complete loss of power. Bizjets often offer double or triple fed busses . . . the Beechjet 400 had one. But the FMEA in that airplane is a snarl of snakes. I wrote a proposal once for splitting the battery capacity into two separate devices and doing a Z14-like architecture. Everyone thought it would be a good thing . . . everyone knew that the re-certification costs would be breathtaking. Everyong knew that there was no customer demand for the feature. With the cross-feed capability, no single failure will put any bus into a battery-only configuration . . . much less total loss of power. Bob . . .


    Message 5


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    Time: 12:17:40 PM PST US
    Subject: Complex Electrical for Lancair
    From: "scuperhead" <craig@skybolt.net>
    Hi Guys, Need some help here. I have a Lancair 360 build that has a 28 volt air conditioner that pulls 50 amps max. Everything else is 14 volt. I have a B and C 60 amp alternator that can run either 14 or 28 volt. I also have a 40 amp B and C that can run 14 or 28. There are two 14 volt EarthX batteries in series that make up the system. Here are the options i am considering. 1. Run the 60 amp at 28 volt and the 40 amp to one of the 14 volt batteries that all the 14 volt items are on. I dont expect the 14 volt buss demand to exceed 20 amps. 2. Run both at 28 volt and use a step down converter for all the 14 volt systems. Any comments or other suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you, Craig -------- Blue Skies, Craig Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484451#484451


    Message 6


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    Time: 12:41:46 PM PST US
    From: Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net>
    Subject: Re: Dual Battery Dual Alternator Power Distribution
    System Bob, Thank you for making that point clear about no bus at risk for complete los s of power in the Z-14 design.=C2- I am no expert on the electrical syste ms and won't even claim a novice status but I do claim to be very logical a nd I could not see a total failure situation in the Z-14 as long as you had a cross feed engaged and you have not lost everything.=C2- That is the r eason that I decided to go with the Z-14 for my plane and I don't think I w ill be disappointed.=C2- The reality is that it was not that difficult to understand or incorporate.=C2- Besides I like having the extra battery p ower for starting. Thanks for your designs, Bob Reed From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 5, 2018 1:56 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Battery Dual Alternator Power Dis tribution System Please help me tounderstand why using the redundant feeds might be a bad id ea.Thanks. =C2-Not necessary . . . already built in . . . =C2-There is no bus in Z-14 at risk for =C2-complete loss of power.=C2- Bizjets often offer =C2-double or triple fed busses . . . the =C2-Beechjet 400 had one. But the FMEA in that =C2-airplane is a snarl of snakes. =C2-I wrote a proposal once for splitting the =C2-battery capacity into two separate devices =C2-and doing a Z14-like architecture. Everyone =C2-thought it would be a good thing . . . everyone =C2-knew that the re-certification costs would be =C2-breathtaking. Everyong knew that there was =C2-no customer demand for the feature. =C2-With the cross-feed capability, no single failure =C2-will put any bus into a battery-only configuration . . . =C2-much less total loss of power. =C2- Bob . . .


    Message 7


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    Time: 01:10:57 PM PST US
    From: Henry Hallam <henry@pericynthion.org>
    Subject: Re: Complex Electrical for Lancair
    Hi Craig, On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 12:28 PM scuperhead <craig@skybolt.net> wrote: > Need some help here. I have a Lancair 360 build that has a 28 volt air > conditioner that pulls 50 amps max. Everything else is 14 volt. I have a > B and C 60 amp alternator that can run either 14 or 28 volt. I also have a > 40 amp B and C that can run 14 or 28. There are two 14 volt EarthX > batteries in series that make up the system. I sometimes wish my Lancair 360 had air conditioning, but damn - that sounds like a bit of a mess electrically. > Here are the options i am considering. > > 1. Run the 60 amp at 28 volt and the 40 amp to one of the 14 volt > batteries that all the 14 volt items are on. I dont expect the 14 volt buss > demand to exceed 20 amps. > The trouble with this is that if you don't connect the 28V one to batteries at all, then it won't regulate properly. If you do connect it to the two batteries in series, but also have one of those batteries driving loads and being charged with a separate alternator, the two batteries will become unbalanced. This is a particularly bad problem with EarthX lithium batteries. > 2. Run both at 28 volt and use a step down converter for all the 14 volt > systems. > This could be a better bet. Assuming you do want to keep the air con, I would consider converting to a primarily 28V system - see which of the currently-14V loads could be inexpensively changed to run on 28V, and add a step-down converter for the remainder. Some starters can be rewired for 28V operation (or just swap the starter, it's only a few hundred bucks). Most modern avionics will run on either voltage. Light bulbs are easily changed. Good luck, Henry


    Message 8


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    Time: 01:51:15 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Dual Battery Dual Alternator Power Distribution
    System At 02:41 PM 11/5/2018, you wrote: >Bob, > >Thank you for making that point clear about no bus at risk for >complete loss of power in the Z-14 design. I am no expert on the >electrical systems and won't even claim a novice status but I do >claim to be very logical and I could not see a total failure >situation in the Z-14 as long as you had a cross feed engaged and >you have not lost everything. That is the reason that I decided to >go with the Z-14 for my plane and I don't think I will be >disappointed. The reality is that it was not that difficult to >understand or incorporate. Besides I like having the extra battery >power for starting. Keep in mind that normal ops are with the cross-feed feature OPEN. This avoids having one alternator shut down without a low-voltage annunciation. Every bus (other than battery busses) has FOUR sources of energy available for mitigation of any single failure event. It was the designer's mis-application of "multiple feed busses" that set up a recipe for failure in the N811HB accident in California. That accident was a particular disappointment . . . the builder attended one of my seminars and had a copy of the book. Neither he nor his professional assistant were members of the List. Preventing the circumstance that primed that accident was stone simple. The 4th video on this page illustrates the advantage powering the dual ignition system from independent Z14 batteries https://tinyurl.com/msfmldj Bob . . .


    Message 9


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    Time: 02:09:49 PM PST US
    From: Craig Schulze <craig@skybolt.net>
    Subject: Re: Complex Electrical for Lancair
    This is the first one I have done that is all electric. Cooled great on th e bench testing. I have a compressor driven on my lancair. Has to be the best thing I have ever done to it. Craig From: "owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com" <owner-aeroelectric-li st-server@matronics.com> on behalf of Henry Hallam <henry@pericynthion.org> m> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Complex Electrical for Lancair Hi Craig, On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 12:28 PM scuperhead <craig@skybolt.net<mailto:craig@ skybolt.net>> wrote: Need some help here. I have a Lancair 360 build that has a 28 volt air con ditioner that pulls 50 amps max. Everything else is 14 volt. I have a B a nd C 60 amp alternator that can run either 14 or 28 volt. I also have a 40 amp B and C that can run 14 or 28. There are two 14 volt EarthX batteries in series that make up the system. I sometimes wish my Lancair 360 had air conditioning, but damn - that sound s like a bit of a mess electrically. Here are the options i am considering. 1. Run the 60 amp at 28 volt and the 40 amp to one of the 14 volt batteries that all the 14 volt items are on. I dont expect the 14 volt buss demand t o exceed 20 amps. The trouble with this is that if you don't connect the 28V one to batteries at all, then it won't regulate properly. If you do connect it to the two b atteries in series, but also have one of those batteries driving loads and being charged with a separate alternator, the two batteries will become unb alanced. This is a particularly bad problem with EarthX lithium batteries. 2. Run both at 28 volt and use a step down converter for all the 14 volt sy stems. This could be a better bet. Assuming you do want to keep the air con, I wou ld consider converting to a primarily 28V system - see which of the current ly-14V loads could be inexpensively changed to run on 28V, and add a step-d own converter for the remainder. Some starters can be rewired for 28V opera tion (or just swap the starter, it's only a few hundred bucks). Most modern avionics will run on either voltage. Light bulbs are easily changed. Good luck, Henry


    Message 10


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    Time: 03:09:26 PM PST US
    From: Craig Schulze <craig@skybolt.net>
    Subject: Re: Complex Electrical for Lancair
    The 28 volt alternator will be connected to two EarthX batteries in series. The other alternator would be regulated to 14 volt and connected to one o f those batteries. Craig From: "owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com" <owner-aeroelectric-li st-server@matronics.com> on behalf of Henry Hallam <henry@pericynthion.org> m> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Complex Electrical for Lancair Hi Craig, On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 12:28 PM scuperhead <craig@skybolt.net<mailto:craig@ skybolt.net>> wrote: Need some help here. I have a Lancair 360 build that has a 28 volt air con ditioner that pulls 50 amps max. Everything else is 14 volt. I have a B a nd C 60 amp alternator that can run either 14 or 28 volt. I also have a 40 amp B and C that can run 14 or 28. There are two 14 volt EarthX batteries in series that make up the system. I sometimes wish my Lancair 360 had air conditioning, but damn - that sound s like a bit of a mess electrically. Here are the options i am considering. 1. Run the 60 amp at 28 volt and the 40 amp to one of the 14 volt batteries that all the 14 volt items are on. I dont expect the 14 volt buss demand t o exceed 20 amps. The trouble with this is that if you don't connect the 28V one to batteries at all, then it won't regulate properly. If you do connect it to the two b atteries in series, but also have one of those batteries driving loads and being charged with a separate alternator, the two batteries will become unb alanced. This is a particularly bad problem with EarthX lithium batteries. 2. Run both at 28 volt and use a step down converter for all the 14 volt sy stems. This could be a better bet. Assuming you do want to keep the air con, I wou ld consider converting to a primarily 28V system - see which of the current ly-14V loads could be inexpensively changed to run on 28V, and add a step-d own converter for the remainder. Some starters can be rewired for 28V opera tion (or just swap the starter, it's only a few hundred bucks). Most modern avionics will run on either voltage. Light bulbs are easily changed. Good luck, Henry


    Message 11


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    Time: 03:11:31 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Dual Battery Dual Alternator Power Distribution
    System
    From: "lwesterlund" <lance.westerlund@yahoo.com>
    Bob, Thanks for the quick reply and the video. Id be curious to know what you recommend regarding an architecture that incorporates the Vertical Power system (or something like it) and p-mag ignitions. Assuming you use the VPX as the main power distribution bus in Z-14, doesnt it essentially become a potential single point of failure for all loads on that bus? I understand that the Pro version has two controllers and two internal buses, but if the entire box went up in smoke, or had to be pulled, it would kill everything downstream; the two batteries and the two alternators could no longer connect to the loads even with the cross connect capability. What I penciled out was a way to take advantage of the VPX and dual feed avionics to allow you to still get power to all flight critical components. Kill any component, including the VPX, and you still have at least one alternator and one battery on-line. It seems like a reasonable way to leverage the robust nature of the Z-14 design while availing oneself of the newest technology that allows one to monitor and control power real time. So back to the original question-whats the best way to integrate the VPX into a dual bat/ dual alt system? Lance Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484460#484460


    Message 12


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    Time: 03:17:13 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Complex Electrical for Lancair
    From: "scuperhead" <craig@skybolt.net>
    Hi Henry, Flaps, electric boost pump, and landing gear have to run at 14 volt as well as my Electo Air Ignition. The radios, lights can be 28. The Vertical Power pro can run on either and will step down for trim but not flaps. So far I am favoring option 1. This creates an automatic backup should either alternator fail. AC is the only item I would run at 28 volts and that doesn't need to be on in a failure situation. The starter has the option for 14 or 28 with a jumper select. I think the key is setting the regulators at the exact correct voltage to keep both batteries in balance. Craig -------- Blue Skies, Craig Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484461#484461


    Message 13


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    Time: 05:24:04 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Complex Electrical for Lancair
    At 05:16 PM 11/5/2018, you wrote: > >Hi Henry, > >Flaps, electric boost pump, and landing gear have to run at 14 volt >as well as my Electo Air Ignition. The radios, lights can be >28. The Vertical Power pro can run on either and will step down for >trim but not flaps. > >So far I am favoring option 1. This creates an automatic backup >should either alternator fail. AC is the only item I would run at >28 volts and that doesn't need to be on in a failure situation. The >starter has the option for 14 or 28 with a jumper select. > >I think the key is setting the regulators at the exact correct >voltage to keep both batteries in balance. I've been pondering this configuration and I'm not sure there is a concern for 'keeping things balanced'. With independent, voltage regulated, engine driven power sources, the two batteries have no interaction. The 12v battery is a security blanket for the 14v system irrespective of the upper battery. The only 'battery duties' to be performed by the 12v + 12v stack is to isolated the 28v alternator from compressor motor inrush currents . . . an event that is tens of milliseconds long and very low energy event. Once the a/c motor is running and the 28v bus stable, the battery is free to recharge for the inrush event . . . after that it just sits there fat, dumb and happy. The fault condition to be managed is failure or shutdown of the 28v alternator whereupon I think I would plan for a auto-shutdown of the a/c motor if the 28v bus voltage falls below 25 or so for more than say 5 seconds. If all else in the aircraft can run happily at 14v, then the lower battery is always in place to do it's expected house-keeping tasks. The existence of the upper battery-alternator should be transparent to the lower battery- alternator except during the 28v alternator event which I think is easily managed. In this case, the batteries need not be the same size but it wouldn't hurt if they were. You could swap them between slots say every oil change. Bob . . .


    Message 14


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    Time: 06:36:38 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Complex Electrical for Lancair
    From: "scuperhead" <craig@skybolt.net>
    Hi Bob, I like your thinking on this and I agree with everything you said. I really think that this is the way to go and I like your idea of a cut off at say 25 volts. I would run the starter on 28. The Ac has a soft start so there is never a spike on start and the max it could ramp to is 50 amps on a hot day. Not so hot days are 35 to 40 amps. -------- Blue Skies, Craig Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484466#484466


    Message 15


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    Time: 06:57:18 PM PST US
    From: A R Goldman <argoldman@aol.com>
    Subject: Re: Complex Electrical for Lancair
    Just a thought=94- Most modern avionics are pretty happy with either 12(14) or 24(28) V no need to reduce there. For others that require 12v, if necessary, a reducer of mu ch smaller size. Lead acid batter Agree totally with the charging /using/differentialy can be a problem KISS. Use gen 2 wth a voltage set slightly lower but still in charging range to become active as an aux easier to monitor state and charging Rich Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 5, 2018, at 3:10 PM, Henry Hallam <henry@pericynthion.org> wrote: > > Hi Craig, > >> On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 12:28 PM scuperhead <craig@skybolt.net> wrote: > >> Need some help here. I have a Lancair 360 build that has a 28 volt air c onditioner that pulls 50 amps max. Everything else is 14 volt. I have a B a nd C 60 amp alternator that can run either 14 or 28 volt. I also have a 40 a mp B and C that can run 14 or 28. There are two 14 volt EarthX batteries in series that make up the system. > > I sometimes wish my Lancair 360 had air conditioning, but damn - that soun ds like a bit of a mess electrically. > >> Here are the options i am considering. >> >> 1. Run the 60 amp at 28 volt and the 40 amp to one of the 14 volt batteri es that all the 14 volt items are on. I dont expect the 14 volt buss demand t o exceed 20 amps. > > The trouble with this is that if you don't connect the 28V one to batterie s at all, then it won't regulate properly. If you do connect it to the two b atteries in series, but also have one of those batteries driving loads and b eing charged with a separate alternator, the two batteries will become unbal anced. This is a particularly bad problem with EarthX lithium batteries. > >> 2. Run both at 28 volt and use a step down converter for all the 14 volt s ystems. > > This could be a better bet. Assuming you do want to keep the air con, I wo uld consider converting to a primarily 28V system - see which of the current ly-14V loads could be inexpensively changed to run on 28V, and add a step-do wn converter for the remainder. Some starters can be rewired for 28V operati on (or just swap the starter, it's only a few hundred bucks). Most modern av ionics will run on either voltage. Light bulbs are easily changed. > > Good luck, > Henry


    Message 16


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    Time: 08:23:04 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Complex Electrical for Lancair
    At 08:36 PM 11/5/2018, you wrote: > >Hi Bob, > >I like your thinking on this and I agree with everything you said. I >really think that this is the way to go and I like your idea of a >cut off at say 25 volts. I would run the starter on 28. The Ac has >a soft start so there is never a spike on start and the max it could >ramp to is 50 amps on a hot day. Not so hot days are 35 to 40 amps. Then both batteries should be the same size and starter-capable . . . PC680 or beefier. Bob . . .


    Message 17


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    Time: 08:53:08 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Complex Electrical for Lancair
    From: "scuperhead" <craig@skybolt.net>
    Hi Bob, Both batteries are EarthX replacements for PC680. I have used EarthX batteries before and they are way better than the PC680. -------- Blue Skies, Craig Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484476#484476




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