---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 11/09/18: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 04:05 AM - List Contribution - Value of the List... (Matt Dralle) 1. 06:47 AM - Re: Re: Dual Battery Dual Alternator Power Distribution System (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 07:36 AM - Re: Dual Battery Dual Alternator Power Distribution System (DAVIDSON) 3. 08:39 AM - Re: Re: Dual Battery Dual Alternator Power Distribution System (Bill Watson) 4. 04:38 PM - Fuse Replacement (Art Zemon) 5. 06:03 PM - Re: Fuse Replacement (Kelly McMullen) 6. 07:33 PM - Re: Fuse Replacement (user9253) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 04:05:33 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: List Contribution - Value of the List... If you look forward to checking your List email everyday (and a lot of you have written to say that you do!), then you're probably getting at least $20 or $30 worth of Entertainment from the Lists each year. You'd pay twice that for a subscription to some magazine or even a dinner out. Isn't the List worth at least that much to you? Wouldn't it be great if you could pay that amount and get a well-managed media source free of advertising, SPAM, and viruses? Come to think of it, you do... :-) Won't you please take a minute to make your Contribution today and support these Lists? http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, drop a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 USA I want to say THANK YOU to everyone that has made a Contribution thus far during this year's List Fund Raiser!! These Lists are made possible exclusively through YOUR generosity!! Thank you for your support! Matt Dralle Email List Admin. ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:40 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Battery Dual Alternator Power Distribution System At 07:14 PM 11/8/2018, you wrote: >"lwesterlund" > >Again, thanks for the detailed reply. Your >approach certainly makes sense when using a >conventional power bus. Afterall, what could >possibly go wrong with a solid brass bus bar? It=99s darn near bullet-proof. > >As I asked in my reply to Bob=99s response, what >if you are using the VPX system? As robust as it >is, it=99s still not as failure proof as a solid >hunk of metal. Even with dual power feeds, it >becomes a single point of failure. Hence my proposed design. Set the VPX system up per installation instructions. Add second alternator/battery with a cross-feed to the VPX system. Make the aux bus your E-bus This isolates the VPX system's FMEA shortfalls (assuming there are any) from E-bus while retaining the feature that everything has 4-sources of energy that can be exploited as needed. No dual feeds, 'emergency' switches, complex Plan-B, etc. KISS Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:15 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Battery Dual Alternator Power Distribution System From: "DAVIDSON" [quote="lAs I asked in my reply to Bobs response, what if you are using the VPX system? As robust as it is, its still not as failure proof as a solid hunk of metal. Even with dual power feeds, it becomes a single point of failure. Hence my proposed design. [/quote] I have an RV-7 in gestation. Here is my plan for implementing VPX-Pro in a dual-battery (same) dual-alternator (60A and 20A) EFII-4R system. 1) Both batteries feed to battery bus (copper bar). Each battery contactor has it's own switch. 2) Starter contactor on battery bus. Starter has momentary switch. 3) Battery bus connected to feed bus (copper bar) via 60A shunt. 4) Both alternators feed to feed bus via ANL (60A and 30A). Each alternator field circuit has it's own switch. 5) Feed bus connects through firewall. 6) A 100A relay feeds the X-BUS (VPX-Pro). 7) A 100A relay feeds the E-BUS (12 circuit fuse box). 8) All circuits are driven by X-BUS. 9) 12 circuits are also driven by E-BUS (essential). 10) The 12 circuits (common to both buses) each feed to a 25A diode bridge rectifier with the plus connection going to the device (sometimes switched). The 12 common circuits are: Primary Fuel (switched) Backup Fuel (switched) Primary Alt Field (switched) Primary Alt Vsense Secondary Alt Field (switched) Secondary Alt Vsense Ignition A Ignition B ECU A ECU B Injectors Starter (switched) It is okay to run with both batteries online or I can choose to start engine with both then take one offline in cruise. It is okay for both X-BUS and E-BUS to be online, but I plan to fly 99% on X-BUS so I can monitor on DYNON SKYVIEW. It is okay for both alternators to be online. The 60A regulator is set at 14.2V and the 20A regulator is set at 13.7V. It is okay for both fuel pumps to be on, but 99.9% of time I'll be on one or the other. The starter switch is hot when E-BUS is closed, but only hot when engine not running when X-BUS is closed. Feedback welcome. --kevin-- Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484723#484723 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:39:22 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Battery Dual Alternator Power Distribution System From: Bill Watson You are welcome! Looks like Bob has responded with a good solution that follows the KISS principle, a hard to adhere to principle when all options are available to the experimental builder. Note that I took a fair amount of friendly heat from Bob when I was considering the Z-14 for my '10 back in 2008-9. I think he called my panel 'everything including the kitchen sink' and considered the Z-14 overkill even for a 'kitchen sink' installation. As I mentioned before, I fell for the simple symmetry of the design. But beauty and simplicity are in the eye of the beholder I suppose though it took a few years of operation before I learned to not only to implement the design as specified, but then to operate it in the proper way. Having done the former and slowly adopted the latter, I now can fully appreciate the robustness of the thing. I'm currently starting an upgrade of my panel to include (1) larger GRT HXr screen and replacement of some pneumatic backup instruments and a Trutrak ADI with the Horis EFIS from kanardia. Your VPX/flap protection caught my eye because of a decision I just made about my flap switch. So I've included that and a few other comments below just for kicks. On 11/8/2018 8:14 PM, lwesterlund wrote: > > Again, thanks for the detailed reply. Your approach certainly makes sense when using a conventional power bus. Afterall, what could possibly go wrong with a solid brass bus bar? Its darn near bullet-proof. Right. I would note that I don't really have any 'bus bars' per se. I have 2 auto-grade fuse panels with power cables running from the alternators/battery connection. That's all very solid and simple along with crossfeed cabling at the battery mount. Very bullet-proof. Fuse Panel by RH foot well > > As I asked in my reply to Bobs response, what if you are using the VPX system? As robust as it is, its still not as failure proof as a solid hunk of metal. Even with dual power feeds, it becomes a single point of failure. Hence my proposed design. The first version of the VPX was available for my plane but just like electronic ignition, I decided to keep those things old school; dual Mags and hardwiring of everything in the power distribution systems. If I did it again, I'd probably go with electronic ignition and investigate the VPX again. > > If theres a better way that leverages that technology, Im all ears. But I dont think you can just plop the VPX into the Z-14 architecture without modifying it to resolve the new SPOF. > > I appreciate that the more conservative approach from a power system risk management perspective is to simply use Z-14 as published. Im interested in the VPX because, IMO, it helps to reduce other elements of risk. For instance, it prevents deploying the flaps above Vfe, will detect and alert an open circuit (like the pitot heater), and will control wig-wag lights. Flaps: I currently use physically identical but labeled Honeywell rockers for all my switches including the flap switch. I used physical location to distinguish it from say landing lights. My Panel with Honeywell Rockers With this current upgrade I was considering using a more classic flap switch with a big toggle. Aerosport Flap Switch But now it's clear to me that it's too easy to accidentally hit that switch in cruise flight. We move around on long flights and my wife sometimes crawls to and from the back seat. The AP disconnect on the stick has been accidentally hit more than once. The trim hat has been hit. But that little Honeywell rocker is pretty much safe from accidental acuation. I'm going to stick with it and just highlight it graphically in case someone else ever flies my plane. > > Any thoughts or suggestions or insights on how to include a VPX in a dual bat dual alt system would be much appreciated. Good Luck, you are going to love the RV-10! > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484638#484638 > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:38:27 PM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Replacement A little fun for a Friday evening -- Art Z. Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:19 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Replacement From: Kelly McMullen It could be embellished by adding a penny and a dime. On 11/9/2018 5:35 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > A little fun for a Friday evening > > -- Art Z. > > Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:51 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fuse Replacement From: "user9253" The 2000 amp wrench reminds me of an incident that I had at work many years ago. I was assigned to troubleshoot and repair a battery charger. This charger was supplied by 480 volt 3 phase power. The battery was 48 volts and as big as a large desk. The battery powered an electric hi-lo. I locked out the 480 volt supply but never thought about unplugging the remote "dead" battery. Even discharged batteries have some stored energy. My wrench shorted out between the bolt holding a large diode and a heatsink. And the wrench welded itself in place. That is when I realized the remote battery was plugged in. As I walked away, the wrench turned red hot. At 6 feet away, the wrench turned white hot and melted in half. The whole incident lasted about 5 seconds or so. Is that considered slow blow? :D -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484734#484734 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.