---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/20/18: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:26 AM - Re: A brown-out alternative? (zwakie) 2. 06:19 AM - Re: Re: A brown-out alternative? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 06:21 AM - Re: A brown-out alternative? (user9253) 4. 06:23 AM - Re: Re: A brown-out alternative? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 06:34 AM - Re: A brown-out alternative? (user9253) 6. 07:24 AM - Re: A brown-out alternative? (zwakie) 7. 07:32 AM - Re: A brown-out alternative? (zwakie) 8. 08:40 AM - Re: A brown-out alternative? (user9253) 9. 09:39 AM - Re: Re: A brown-out alternative? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 12:47 PM - Re: A brown-out alternative? (zwakie) 11. 05:40 PM - DC - DC Converter (Rocketman1988) 12. 06:02 PM - Re: DC - DC Converter (Charlie England) 13. 06:09 PM - Re: DC - DC Converter (Art Zemon) 14. 06:51 PM - Re: DC - DC Converter (Rocketman1988) 15. 07:07 PM - Re: DC - DC Converter (user9253) 16. 07:29 PM - Re: DC - DC Converter (Rocketman1988) 17. 07:50 PM - Re: Re: DC - DC Converter (Gerald Champagne) 18. 07:59 PM - Re: Re: DC - DC Converter (don van santen) 19. 09:44 PM - Re: Re: DC - DC Converter (Werner Schneider) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:26:31 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: A brown-out alternative? From: "zwakie" I like this approach very much for all the reasons Bob mentions in is opening post. I would have expected a relay 'solution' could be even simpler than that: I would expect no more than what I have drawn up quickly as in attached schema. I am however struggling to understand the way Bob has wired the S704, so please enlighten this not-so-electro-savvy-person: what is/are the fundamental difference(s) between Bob's schema and what I have come up with? I suspect it has to do with the timing aspects mentioned, but don't see why 'my' lesser-component approach would not take care of those. -------- Marcel Zwakenberg XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=485340#485340 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2018_11_20_at_141613_843.png ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:20 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: A brown-out alternative? At 07:25 AM 11/20/2018, you wrote: > >I like this approach very much for all the reasons Bob mentions in >is opening post. > >I would have expected a relay 'solution' could be even simpler than >that: I would expect no more than what I have drawn up quickly as in >attached schema. > >I am however struggling to understand the way Bob has wired the >S704, so please enlighten this not-so-electro-savvy-person: what >is/are the fundamental difference(s) between Bob's schema and what I >have come up with? > >I suspect it has to do with the timing aspects mentioned, but don't >see why 'my' lesser-component approach would not take care of those. Yes . . . timing. (1) You want the e-bus to be 'boosted' BEFORE the starter current begins to flow and (2) remain boosted until AFTER the starter current is interrupted. We're talking tens of milliseconds here. The working hypothesis: the S704 wired as shown will offer a substantial drop-out delay (instigated by the catch diode on the coil). Hence it provides the necessary physics for condition (2). I'll confirm this with an experiment on the bench but I think the hypothesis is sound. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:34 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: A brown-out alternative? From: "user9253" Marcel, You are right about the timing. The purpose of the diode between the downstream side of the start switch and the DC-DC converter is to conduct instantaneous power during the time that it takes the relay to close. The purpose of the relay is to provide a delay opening the circuit to the DC-DC converter. If you want to simplify the circuit, leave out both the diode and the relay and connect the DC-DC converter in parallel with the starter contactor. As soon as the start button is pressed, the DC-DC converter will be energized. The pilot is not going to let go of the start button until the engine starts. Once the engine has started, even for a second, the battery voltage will be above 10 volts. Thus brownout protection will be no longer needed. What do you have to lose by trying it? If it doesn't work, no harm is done. There will be brownout just like before experimenting. I suggest that the E-Bus switch common pole be connected to the E-Bus so that either the DC-DC converter or battery is selected, but both can not be connected together at the same time. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=485344#485344 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:52 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: A brown-out alternative? At 07:25 AM 11/20/2018, you wrote: > >I like this approach very much for all the reasons Bob mentions in >is opening post. > >I would have expected a relay 'solution' could be even simpler than >that: I would expect no more than what I have drawn up quickly as in >attached schema. > >I am however struggling to understand the way Bob has wired the >S704, so please enlighten this not-so-electro-savvy-person: what >is/are the fundamental difference(s) between Bob's schema and what I >have come up with? > >I suspect it has to do with the timing aspects mentioned, but don't >see why 'my' lesser-component approach would not take care of those. Yes . . . timing. (1) You want the e-bus to be 'boosted' BEFORE the starter current begins to flow and (2) remain boosted until AFTER the starter current is interrupted. We're talking tens of milliseconds here. The working hypothesis: the S704 wired as shown will offer a substantial drop-out delay (instigated by the catch diode on the coil). Hence it provides the necessary physics for condition (2). Oops, hit the send too soon. The diode around the S704 goes to condition (1). The diode in series with the output from the boost module goes to our lack of knowledge as to how well the boost module tolerates 'back feeding' when not being used. It may not be necessary but it doesn't hurt anything either. The extra diode is already part of our old friend, the diode bridge rectifier. I'll confirm this with an experiment on the bench but I think the hypothesis is sound. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:25 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: A brown-out alternative? From: "user9253" Depending on the architecture of the DC-DC converter, a diode in series with its output may or may not be needed. I assume that the converter changes supply voltage to AC, transforms it to a higher voltage, then rectifies and filters the AC to change it back to a higher voltage DC. The rectifiers should block reverse current flow. But assumptions can be wrong. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=485346#485346 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:04 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: A brown-out alternative? From: "zwakie" Thanks Bob and Joe, thanks for your (very) quick replies ;), much appreciated! So, let me rephrase to see if I understand the workings of Bob's schema correctly: - the diode across the coil makes sure the relay opens tens of milliseconds later than opening up the start switch, hopefully by then the voltage on the battery by then has gone above brownout voltage (and you can replace this diode by a capacitor to increase the delay if so required); - the other diode in the line providing instantaneous power to the DC/DC converter is there to make sure no electrons can reach the starter connector after the start switch has been opened. Joe, thanks for pointing out my oversight of connecting the DC/DC to the E-Bus Switch common. And for the two diodes: will any out of the 1N... series do? -------- Marcel Zwakenberg XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=485350#485350 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:14 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: A brown-out alternative? From: "zwakie" Which would then be integrated in my schema as shown below. Any flaws with that? -------- Marcel Zwakenberg XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=485351#485351 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2018_11_20_at_162946_965.png ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:11 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: A brown-out alternative? From: "user9253" The main purpose of a diode across the relay coil is to short out induced voltage being generated by the collapsing relay magnetic field. Without a diode or other voltage snubber, high voltage can arc across the contacts of the controlling switch, eventually damaging it. I would not replace the diode with a capacitor. Any arc suppression diode capable of conducting 1 amp or more will do. The diode in series with the DC-DC converter should be rated at least 10 amps. There is no need for two separate circuits and fuses. Regardless of one or two circuits, the fuse(s) needs to be able to handle the DC-DC converter current. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=485353#485353 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:39:32 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: A brown-out alternative? At 10:39 AM 11/20/2018, you wrote: > >The main purpose of a diode across the relay coil is to short out >induced voltage being generated by the >collapsing relay magnetic field. Without a diode or other voltage >snubber, high voltage can arc across >the contacts of the controlling switch, eventually damaging it. Actually, a capacitor COULD be used to effect drop-out delay per the t=rc constant of the capacitor + coil resistance. But you would still need a series diode to isolate the coil/capacitor combo from the voltage source. A diode will do the same thing per t=l/r but MAY prove to be too short. The bench testing will deny/confirm the hypothesis. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:47:58 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: A brown-out alternative? From: "zwakie" user9253 wrote: > The main purpose of a diode across the relay coil is to short out induced voltage being generated by the collapsing relay magnetic field. Sure, I did not mention that as that seems obvious to me, but good to add as a clarification. Thanks! user9253 wrote: > Any arc suppression diode capable of conducting 1 amp or more will do. Okay. user9253 wrote: > The diode in series with the DC-DC converter should be rated at least 10 amps. Yes, I can see why... (an even higher current rating might be required though, depending on used DC/DC converter type and battery voltage drop when starter engine spins up) user9253 wrote: > There is no need for two separate circuits and fuses. You are right, having thought about it a bit more I even think it is not a good idea to use two fuses as there is no way of knowing during preflight checking if one of the two fuses was blown, so you would not know that the circuit can only carry half the design current. Better to go with an XOR type of design... user9253 wrote: > Regardless of one or two circuits, the fuse(s) needs to be able to handle the DC-DC converter current. Sure enough (as do the wires ;) ). Thanks again Joe for further explanations. -------- Marcel Zwakenberg XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=485361#485361 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:40:23 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: DC - DC Converter From: "Rocketman1988" Anyone have a recommendation on a 12VDC to 5VDC converter that is too noisy? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=485375#485375 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:11 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: DC - DC Converter From: Charlie England Check with Steinair=2E =81=A3Charlie=8B On Nov 20, 2018, 8:44 PM , at 8:44 PM, Rocketman1988 wrote: >--> AeroElect ric-List message posted by: "Rocketman1988" > > >A nyone have a recommendation on a 12VDC to 5VDC converter that is too >noisy ? > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums=2Ematronics=2Ecom/ viewtopic=2Ephp?p=485375#485375 > > = = (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) s the Annual List Fund Raiser=2E Click on elow to find out more about fts provided otstore=2Ecom -> http://www=2Ematronics=2Ecom/contribution your generous support! lle, List Admin=2E =================== - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum - res Navigator to browse cription, Photoshare, and much much more: =2Ecom/Navigator?AeroElectric-List so available via the Web Forums! ics=2Ecom ================ EW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - iki! = for your generous support! , List Admin=2E ========= ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:57 PM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: DC - DC Converter I bought this $25 wonder from Aircraft Spruce. https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/eadualusbpanel.php I have not flow with it yet but I expect that it will be just fine. Big plus for me was that it installs in a round hole. -- Art Z. On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 8:02 PM Rocketman1988 wrote: > Rocketman@etczone.com> > > Anyone have a recommendation on a 12VDC to 5VDC converter that is too > noisy? -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle."* ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:58 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: DC - DC Converter From: "Rocketman1988" Thanks. I am really looking for a 5v supply to drive some servos. There are plenty of switching regulators out there but I am curious as to the effect on the radios... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=485381#485381 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:58 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: DC - DC Converter From: "user9253" There is a thread on VansAirforce about 5 volt USB ports. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=87369 -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=485382#485382 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:01 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: DC - DC Converter From: "Rocketman1988" Not looking for a USB port. Looking for a 5v power supply that will power some servos and have minimal EMI for the radios... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=485383#485383 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:28 PM PST US From: Gerald Champagne Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: DC - DC Converter You could use something like this that's specifically designed to power servos that are sitting right next to a radio receiver: http://home.castlecreations.com/becs http://www.castlecreations.com/en/accessories-5/cc-bec-010-0004-00 They're small, they're cheap, they're RF friendly, and the output voltage is programmable. I've used them on several RC projects and they work great. Gerald On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 9:33 PM Rocketman1988 wrote: > Rocketman@etczone.com> > > Not looking for a USB port. Looking for a 5v power supply that will power > some servos and have minimal EMI for the radios... > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=485383#485383 > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:34 PM PST US From: don van santen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: DC - DC Converter Or try Max Products Inc's rc regulators. On Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 19:54 Gerald Champagne You could use something like this that's specifically designed to power > servos that are sitting right next to a radio receiver: > > http://home.castlecreations.com/becs > > http://www.castlecreations.com/en/accessories-5/cc-bec-010-0004-00 > > They're small, they're cheap, they're RF friendly, and the output voltage > is programmable. I've used them on several RC projects and they work great. > > Gerald > > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 9:33 PM Rocketman1988 > wrote: > >> Rocketman@etczone.com> >> >> Not looking for a USB port. Looking for a 5v power supply that will >> power some servos and have minimal EMI for the radios... >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=485383#485383 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> br> fts!) >> r> > e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> ========== >> - >> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> WIKI - >> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:45 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: DC - DC Converter From: Werner Schneider If you want to run your ow, I have very good experience with Traco Power DC-DC converters, they come in all kind of varieties, also high power once, they are clean and work perfect since over 15 years in my plane Mouser does sell them Cheers Werner On 21.11.2018 03:51, Rocketman1988 wrote: > > Thanks. I am really looking for a 5v supply to drive some servos. There are plenty of switching regulators out there but I am curious as to the effect on the radios... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.