Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:30 AM - Re: Alternator/shunt question (supik)
2. 03:46 AM - Re: GPS Antennae (GTH)
3. 04:48 AM - Re: Re: Alternator/shunt question (Art Zemon)
4. 04:58 AM - Re: A brown-out alternative? (user9253)
5. 05:14 AM - Re: Re: Alternator/shunt question (Art Zemon)
6. 05:36 AM - Re: GPS Antennae (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 05:42 AM - Re: Re: Transponder Antenna (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 06:54 AM - Re: Re: A brown-out alternative? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 07:34 AM - Re: Transponder Antenna (Tundra10)
10. 09:57 AM - Re: Re: Transponder Antenna (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 11:33 AM - Re: Alternator/shunt question (supik)
12. 01:28 PM - Re: Re: Alternator/shunt question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 02:44 PM - Re: Relay sticking (Sebastien)
14. 03:35 PM - Re: Alternator/shunt question (supik)
15. 04:13 PM - Re: Re: Alternator/shunt question ()
16. 04:18 PM - Re: Re: Alternator/shunt question (don van santen)
17. 04:40 PM - Re: Alternator/shunt question (supik)
18. 05:08 PM - Re: Re: Alternator/shunt question (Charlie England)
19. 06:01 PM - Re: Alternator/shunt question (supik)
20. 06:28 PM - Re: Re: Alternator/shunt question (don van santen)
21. 06:52 PM - Re: Re: Alternator/shunt question (Charlie England)
22. 07:03 PM - Re: Alternator/shunt question (supik)
23. 07:19 PM - Re: Alternator/shunt question (supik)
24. 07:47 PM - Re: Re: Alternator/shunt question (Charlie England)
25. 08:10 PM - Re: Re: Alternator/shunt question (Charlie England)
26. 08:21 PM - Re: Alternator/shunt question (supik)
27. 08:32 PM - Re: Alternator/shunt question (user9253)
28. 08:49 PM - Re: Alternator/shunt question (supik)
29. 09:10 PM - Re: Alternator/shunt question (supik)
30. 09:34 PM - Re: Re: Alternator/shunt question (Kelly McMullen)
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
Art, at what voltage did you setup your Aux Alt? What is the max Voltage the Standby
Regulator will allow?
Thanks,
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486700#486700
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Subject: | Re: GPS Antennae |
Le 04/01/2019 05:51, speedy11@aol.com a crit:
>
> But, if I mount a GPS antenna inside the airplane on a glare shield,
> does the orientation matter?
>
Hi Stan,
When installing our GPS antenna on the glareshield we did not pay any
attention to the orientation.
Everything has been woring great since then, even in the hangar.
http://contrails.free.fr/gps_en.php
Furthermore, if orientation did matter, reception would depend on the
heading of the airplane, which is not desirable.
Hope this helps,
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
Igor,
The backup voltage regulator came preset to 13.0 volts. Per a discussion
here, I am going to increase it to 13.5 volts.
You might want to look at the manual for the regulator on B&C Aero's
website. It is available here:
http://www.bandc.aero/standbyalternatorcontroller14vhomebuilt.aspx
Cheers,
-- Art Z.
On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 3:49 AM supik <bionicad@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Art, at what voltage did you setup your Aux Alt? What is the max Voltage
> the Standby Regulator will allow?
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle."*
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Subject: | Re: A brown-out alternative? |
It would be an interesting experiment to see if the brownout-DC-DC converter
would work without the relay. The purpose of the relay is to provide
milliseconds of delay in opening the circuit after cranking the engine. When the
engine starts, human reaction time for releasing the start button provides a
delay. If the engine does not start, the need for a delay depends on the battery
voltage. Doesn't the battery voltage start recovering within a few milliseconds
after engine cranking begins?
--------
Joe Gores
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
Ernest,
I used LibreOffice Draw. Here are the drawings:
https://github.com/azemon/N114AC_wiring
Cheers,
-- Art Z.
On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 4:12 PM Ernest Christley <echristley@att.net> wrote:
> How did you manage that with LibreOffice, Art? I've never been able to
> get anything other than the most rudimentary drawings out of it. I'd
> appreciate you sharing your source files. I would definitely use it to
> improve my POH.
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle."*
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Subject: | Re: GPS Antennae |
At 10:51 PM 1/3/2019, you wrote:
>Do GPS antennae have an electronic front and rear?
>When physically attaching an antenna to an airplane there is a
>designed direction for strength and best aerodynamic airflow.
>But, if I mount a GPS antenna inside the airplane on a glare shield,
>does the orientation matter?
>
>Stan Sutterfield
No . . . they are omni-directional
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: Transponder Antenna |
At 03:52 PM 1/3/2019, you wrote:
>
>One thing I find odd about the blade transponder antenna, is that
>the entire body is a chunk of aluminum. There is a horizontal band
>with a plastic? covering. So it seems the radiating element is
>pretty shielded inside.
>
>It is a Dorne & Margolin DM NI 70-2 if anyone is familiar with it.
That whole chunk of aluminum above
the plastic insulator IS the antenna.
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: A brown-out alternative? |
At 06:57 AM 1/4/2019, you wrote:
>
>It would be an interesting experiment to see if the brownout-DC-DC converter
> would work without the relay. The purpose of the relay is to provide
>milliseconds of delay in opening the circuit after cranking the engine.
Yes, a delay greater than the dropout delay
in the starter contactor.
> When the
>engine starts, human reaction time for releasing the start button provides a
>delay. If the engine does not start, the need for a delay depends
>on the battery
>voltage. Doesn't the battery voltage start recovering within a few
>milliseconds
>after engine cranking begins?
Usually . . . if the battery is
relatively robust and in good
condition. Try it without
the relay. It can't do anything
worse than not work.
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: Transponder Antenna |
This would be easier for me to understand if the plastic insulator went all the
way around.
It only goes halfway, so the aluminum at the tip of the antenna is the same solid
chunk of aluminum as at the base, which is connected to the shield of the cable
and the aluminum skin of the aircraft.
Jeff Page
Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
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Subject: | Re: Transponder Antenna |
At 09:33 AM 1/4/2019, you wrote:
>
>This would be easier for me to understand if the plastic insulator
>went all the way around.
>
>It only goes halfway, so the aluminum at the tip of the antenna is
>the same solid chunk of aluminum as at the base, which is connected
>to the shield of the cable and the aluminum skin of the aircraft.
If only one side of the blade is insulated
then the antenna's feed-point is at the
center of the insulated side with
some form of matching not unlike
a 'gamma match' on a 1/4 wave vertical.
This allows the whole antenna to be formed
from a single piece of metal for mechanical
robustness, total ground at DC, yet presents
a 50 ohm load to the transmission line.
Antenna design and fabrication often seems
like magic . . . looking through the myriad
of patents can leave one in awe for those
to have mastered the art! Just did a quick
search on 'blade antennas' hoping that the
antenna under discussion might pop up . . .
https://tinyurl.com/ya24kfgu
good luck with that!
I think I've got some data on that design
buried around here somewhere. If I run
across the article, I'll post it.
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
Art, that's my concern.. I think that's not enough Volts to charge the battery..
art(at)zemon.name wrote:
> Igor,
>
>
> The backup voltage regulator came preset to 13.0 volts. Per a discussion here,
I am going to increase it to 13.5 volts.
> You might want to look at the manual for the regulator on B&C Aero's website. It is available here:http://www.bandc.aero/standbyalternatorcontroller14vhomebuilt.aspx (http://www.bandc.aero/standbyalternatorcontroller14vhomebuilt.aspx)
>
>
> Cheers,
> -- Art Z.
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 3:49 AM supik wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Art, at what voltage did you setup your Aux Alt? What is the max Voltage the
Standby Regulator will allow?
> >
>
>
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ (https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/)"Be kind, for
everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle."
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486712#486712
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
At 01:32 PM 1/4/2019, you wrote:
>
>Art, that's my concern.. I think that's not enough Volts to charge
>the battery..
>
One does not CHARGE a battery with the standby
alternator . . . you only support the bus
at some level that prevents DISCHARGING
the battery.
The idea is to minimize loads to some
level at or below what the standby
alternator will deliver thus holding
the battery in reserve for approach
to landing
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: Relay sticking |
Upon examination of the removed starter relay I see that it is a continuous
duty relay. It has now been replaced with an intermittent duty relay of
appropriate capacity. Thank you for the help everyone but looks like this
one was obvious.
On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 9:18 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 07:14 PM 12/24/2018, you wrote:
>
> We had a strange event last week with our O-200 powered CH750. After
> running the battery down during a fuel gauge calibration that lasted over
> an hour, one of our pilots tried to start the engine to taxi back but with
> the already depleted battery and a less than perfect start procedure they
> gave up after a couple weak start attempts. I walked over to the aircraft
> to brief them on a prop start and when I asked for the master on the
> starter ran.
>
>
> The vast majority of starter contactor
> sticking events occur during an attempt
> to crank the engine with a weak battery.
> The fact that you got immediate starter
> action on closure of the master switch
> says your starter contactor was 'stuck'
> shut.
>
> Shut the master off, cycled the start button rapidly a dozen times,
> master on again and the starter ran again. I could hear the starter relay
> clicking loudly each time power was applied so it does not seem like there
> was a physical failure of the relay but more some electrical short
> activating the relay each time power was applied.
>
>
> Contacts are welded . . .
>
>
> The build team inspected the relay and found a loose connection.
> Tightening it took the problem from continuous to intermittent; in their
> words "it's fixed but it did it again once".
>
> We have removed the relay for replacement, I still think the switch is
> suspect but they've decided the problem is the relay. Does the aeroelectric
> list think there would be value in cutting open the relay and examining it?
> Any suggestions on how best to do so?
>
>
> Go to a car parts store and pick
> up a starter contactor that looks
> like the one in the aircraft spruce
> catalog . . . it will work just fine.
> See if the contactor is marked "diode
> suppressed" or has the word diode on it
> anywhere or on the packaging.
>
> [image: Emacs!]
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> At 01:32 PM 1/4/2019, you wrote:
>
> >
> > Art, that's my concern.. I think that's not enough Volts to charge the battery..
> >
> >
>
> One does not CHARGE a battery with the standby
> alternator . . . you only support the bus
> at some level that prevents DISCHARGING
> the battery.
>
> The idea is to minimize loads to some
> level at or below what the standby
> alternator will deliver thus holding
> the battery in reserve for approach
> to landing
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
Bob,
I don't get it. B&C says the standby alt can be configured with both the normal
or the standby regulator. Therefore I assume that this 30A alt is able to charge
a battery.
Flipping 1 switch I am able to shed loads immediately to 19amps (that's what the
e-bus typically consumes). Now I have approx. 11amps left depending on RPM -why
not use that power to charge the battery?
thanks,
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486716#486716
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
OK - this may be my first "contribution" to the discussion, based on
what I've learned here. Here goes:
Igor,
If I understand correctly, other than briefly after starting (when the
60-amp alternator would be handling the duties), the battery should
already be fully charged, and operating strictly as a "backup" to the
dual-alternator system. Thus, if the primary (60Amp) alternator were to
fail, the backup (30Amp) alternator would take over powering the
aircraft's electrical system. It is only if BOTH the primary (60Amp)
and backup (30Amp) alternators were to fail that the battery would begin
to be discharged.
If both alternators were to fail while the battery was still being
recharged, you'd likely still be on the ground taxiing, and I would
think that would constitute enough of an 'emergency' to scrub the
flight...
Bob, et al, how'd I do?
Jim Parker (Complete rookie at all things electrical, but hopefully
beginning to have a clue...)
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator/shunt question
From: "supik" <bionicad@hotmail.com>
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> At 01:32 PM 1/4/2019, you wrote:
>
> >
> > Art, that's my concern.. I think that's not enough Volts to charge the battery..
> >
> >
>
> One does not CHARGE a battery with the standby
> alternator . . . you only support the bus
> at some level that prevents DISCHARGING
> the battery.
>
> The idea is to minimize loads to some
> level at or below what the standby
> alternator will deliver thus holding
> the battery in reserve for approach
> to landing
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
Bob,
I don't get it. B&C says the standby alt can be configured with both the
normal or the standby regulator. Therefore I assume that this 30A alt is
able to charge a battery.
Flipping 1 switch I am able to shed loads immediately to 19amps (that's
what the e-bus typically consumes). Now I have approx. 11amps left
depending on RPM -why not use that power to charge the battery?
thanks,
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486716#486716
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
If your primary alt failed in the first ten minutes of flight your battery
may not be fully charged. If this is true just return to the departure
airport. If the battery was fully charged before take off and the alt
failure was more than 10 to 15 minutes later your battery is fully
recharged anyway. Either way you do not need to charge the battery with the
secondary alt.
On Fri, Jan 4, 2019, 15:39 supik <bionicad@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> > At 01:32 PM 1/4/2019, you wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Art, that's my concern.. I think that's not enough Volts to charge
> the battery..
> > >
> > >
> >
> > One does not CHARGE a battery with the standby
> > alternator . . . you only support the bus
> > at some level that prevents DISCHARGING
> > the battery.
> >
> > The idea is to minimize loads to some
> > level at or below what the standby
> > alternator will deliver thus holding
> > the battery in reserve for approach
> > to landing
> >
> >
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>
> Bob,
>
> I don't get it. B&C says the standby alt can be configured with both the
> normal or the standby regulator. Therefore I assume that this 30A alt is
> able to charge a battery.
>
> Flipping 1 switch I am able to shed loads immediately to 19amps (that's
> what the e-bus typically consumes). Now I have approx. 11amps left
> depending on RPM -why not use that power to charge the battery?
>
> thanks,
>
> --------
> Igor
>
> RV10 in progress
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486716#486716
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
jim(at)PoogieBearRanch.co wrote:
> OK - this may be my first "contribution" to the discussion, based on
> what I've learned here. Here goes:
>
> Igor,
>
> If I understand correctly, other than briefly after starting (when the
> 60-amp alternator would be handling the duties), the battery should
> already be fully charged, and operating strictly as a "backup" to the
> dual-alternator system. Thus, if the primary (60Amp) alternator were to
> fail, the backup (30Amp) alternator would take over powering the
> aircraft's electrical system. It is only if BOTH the primary (60Amp)
> and backup (30Amp) alternators were to fail that the battery would begin
> to be discharged.
>
> If both alternators were to fail while the battery was still being
> recharged, you'd likely still be on the ground taxiing, and I would
> think that would constitute enough of an 'emergency' to scrub the
> flight...
>
> Bob, et al, how'd I do?
>
> Jim Parker (Complete rookie at all things electrical, but hopefully
> beginning to have a clue...)
>
>
> ------
Jim,
That's exactly my idea. thanks!
Normal flight starts with a healthy battery and 2 alternators.
Main alternator fails: load shedding follows, Stby alternator takes over the reduced
load & keeps the battery charged. I land, refuel and continue home in Day
VFR with load shedded and battery maintained charged. I am not forced to replace
or repair the Main alt after my first landing.
In case the Stby alternator fails too (dual alt failure) -land ASAP (emergency)
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486719#486719
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
On 1/4/2019 6:39 PM, supik wrote:
>
>
> jim(at)PoogieBearRanch.co wrote:
>> OK - this may be my first "contribution" to the discussion, based on
>> what I've learned here. Here goes:
>>
>> Igor,
>>
>> If I understand correctly, other than briefly after starting (when the
>> 60-amp alternator would be handling the duties), the battery should
>> already be fully charged, and operating strictly as a "backup" to the
>> dual-alternator system. Thus, if the primary (60Amp) alternator were to
>> fail, the backup (30Amp) alternator would take over powering the
>> aircraft's electrical system. It is only if BOTH the primary (60Amp)
>> and backup (30Amp) alternators were to fail that the battery would begin
>> to be discharged.
>>
>> If both alternators were to fail while the battery was still being
>> recharged, you'd likely still be on the ground taxiing, and I would
>> think that would constitute enough of an 'emergency' to scrub the
>> flight...
>>
>> Bob, et al, how'd I do?
>>
>> Jim Parker (Complete rookie at all things electrical, but hopefully
>> beginning to have a clue...)
>>
>>
>> ------
>
> Jim,
>
> That's exactly my idea. thanks!
>
> Normal flight starts with a healthy battery and 2 alternators.
>
> Main alternator fails: load shedding follows, Stby alternator takes over the
reduced load & keeps the battery charged. I land, refuel and continue home in
Day VFR with load shedded and battery maintained charged. I am not forced to replace
or repair the Main alt after my first landing.
>
> In case the Stby alternator fails too (dual alt failure) -land ASAP (emergency)
>
> --------
> Igor
>
>
I think one tripping point for some, is that the lower setpoint for the
standby alt is so that it will automatically come on line if the primary
fails. (The lower setpoint means that the standby regulator sees no need
to supply field current, since the system is already above its setpoint.
A byproduct is that when the system voltage drops to the standby
setpoint, the low voltage monitor will notify the pilot that he's now
running on 'backup' alternator power. If the standby had the same
setpoint, you'd never get a notification of the primary's failure. So,
you get multiple uses from one adjustment, instead of extra hardware.
Another tripping point is 'keeping the battery charged'. That's not
what's happening on a typical flight. We crank up (slight discharge),
then the alternator picks up all the a/c loads plus recharges the
battery. Once the battery is fully charged (fairly quickly for a healthy
battery and an uneventful start), the alternator isn't 'keeping the
battery charged'; it's just supplying the electrical loads of the a/c.
(Over the course of a typical flight, and for quite a while afterward,
the battery doesn't need to be kept charged. I've had normal starts from
a no-name generic SLA battery after it's been sitting in the plane for a
month or more.) So.... once you've been flying for 10-15 minutes, in all
probability your battery is fully charged. At any point in the flight
after that, you have a fully charged battery on board if the primary alt
fails. The standby then takes over at 13+ volts, running the a/c
appliances, which will operate just fine on 12V. Since you're operating
above the fully charged voltage level of the battery, it will not
discharge during the flight.
You always have the option to use the same regulator setpoints for both
alternators, and set up some other monitoring system to notify you
and/or switch to the backup. I'm running two identical alternators on my
alternative engine and will be doing just that.
Charlie
---
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
[quote="ceengland7(at)gmail.com"]On 1/4/2019 6:39 PM, supik wrote:
>
> If the standby had the same
> setpoint, you'd never get a notification of the primary's failure.
>
The Stby setpoint would be 14.1V (good enough for bat recharge and monitoring funciton
of the Stby alt comming online) and the Main alt's setpoint 14.7V. Does
that make sense?
[quote="ceengland7(at)gmail.com"]On 1/4/2019 6:39 PM, supik wrote:
>
> Another tripping point is 'keeping the battery charged'. That's not
> what's happening on a typical flight. We crank up (slight discharge),
> then the alternator picks up all the a/c loads plus recharges the
> battery. Once the battery is fully charged (fairly quickly for a healthy
> battery and an uneventful start), the alternator isn't 'keeping the
> battery charged'; it's just supplying the electrical loads of the a/c.
> (Over the course of a typical flight, and for quite a while afterward,
> the battery doesn't need to be kept charged.
>
That's correct, we are not talking about a typical flight. It's a 'get aircraft
home mode' in good weather and day conditions (sorry for repeating myself again).
The calculated typical e-bus draw is supposed to be at 19Amps.
With intermittent loads (engine start, flaps extension/retraction etc) the loads
will get above 30Amps for a short period of time where the battery's capacity
will take over. After the peak draw is over, the Stby alternator would be able
to recharge the battery again. This assures that I land with a fully charged
battery -good for another engine start.
Shall the Stby alt fail in flight (dual alt failure), this would leave me with
a fully charged battery for 'emergency land ASAP mode' anytime except shortly
after the battery took over to supply some peak draw, where I expect the peak
draws to happen during take off and landing, not so much during cruise..
Am I missing something?
Thanks,
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486721#486721
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
It seems that you want to do something that a standby system was never
meant to do. If you insist on being able to make multiple departures after
the primary alt quits, maybe you should use 2 60 amp alternators with
independant controls. a better plan would be to use tje secondary system as
dezigned and continue your flight as far as the fuel on board allows, land
and make repairs and then continue on. Irf your car breaks down do stop for
repairs or try to drive it home?
On Fri, Jan 4, 2019, 18:06 supik <bionicad@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> [quote="ceengland7(at)gmail.com"]On 1/4/2019 6:39 PM, supik wrote:
>
> >
> > If the standby had the same
> > setpoint, you'd never get a notification of the primary's failure.
> >
>
>
> The Stby setpoint would be 14.1V (good enough for bat recharge and
> monitoring funciton of the Stby alt comming online) and the Main alt's
> setpoint 14.7V. Does that make sense?
>
>
> [quote="ceengland7(at)gmail.com"]On 1/4/2019 6:39 PM, supik wrote:
>
> >
> > Another tripping point is 'keeping the battery charged'. That's not
> > what's happening on a typical flight. We crank up (slight discharge),
> > then the alternator picks up all the a/c loads plus recharges the
> > battery. Once the battery is fully charged (fairly quickly for a healthy
> > battery and an uneventful start), the alternator isn't 'keeping the
> > battery charged'; it's just supplying the electrical loads of the a/c.
> > (Over the course of a typical flight, and for quite a while afterward,
> > the battery doesn't need to be kept charged.
> >
>
>
> That's correct, we are not talking about a typical flight. It's a 'get
> aircraft home mode' in good weather and day conditions (sorry for repeating
> myself again). The calculated typical e-bus draw is supposed to be at
> 19Amps.
>
> With intermittent loads (engine start, flaps extension/retraction etc) the
> loads will get above 30Amps for a short period of time where the battery's
> capacity will take over. After the peak draw is over, the Stby alternator
> would be able to recharge the battery again. This assures that I land with
> a fully charged battery -good for another engine start.
>
> Shall the Stby alt fail in flight (dual alt failure), this would leave me
> with a fully charged battery for 'emergency land ASAP mode' anytime except
> shortly after the battery took over to supply some peak draw, where I
> expect the peak draws to happen during take off and landing, not so much
> during cruise..
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --------
> Igor
>
> RV10 in progress
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486721#486721
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
On 1/4/2019 8:00 PM, supik wrote:
>
> [quote="ceengland7(at)gmail.com"]On 1/4/2019 6:39 PM, supik wrote:
>
>>
>> If the standby had the same
>> setpoint, you'd never get a notification of the primary's failure.
>>
>
>
> The Stby setpoint would be 14.1V (good enough for bat recharge and monitoring
funciton of the Stby alt comming online) and the Main alt's setpoint 14.7V. Does
that make sense?
>
>
> [quote="ceengland7(at)gmail.com"]On 1/4/2019 6:39 PM, supik wrote:
>
>>
>> Another tripping point is 'keeping the battery charged'. That's not
>> what's happening on a typical flight. We crank up (slight discharge),
>> then the alternator picks up all the a/c loads plus recharges the
>> battery. Once the battery is fully charged (fairly quickly for a healthy
>> battery and an uneventful start), the alternator isn't 'keeping the
>> battery charged'; it's just supplying the electrical loads of the a/c.
>> (Over the course of a typical flight, and for quite a while afterward,
>> the battery doesn't need to be kept charged.
>>
>
> That's correct, we are not talking about a typical flight. It's a 'get aircraft
home mode' in good weather and day conditions (sorry for repeating myself again).
The calculated typical e-bus draw is supposed to be at 19Amps.
>
> With intermittent loads (engine start, flaps extension/retraction etc) the loads
will get above 30Amps for a short period of time where the battery's capacity
will take over. After the peak draw is over, the Stby alternator would be
able to recharge the battery again. This assures that I land with a fully charged
battery -good for another engine start.
>
> Shall the Stby alt fail in flight (dual alt failure), this would leave me with
a fully charged battery for 'emergency land ASAP mode' anytime except shortly
after the battery took over to supply some peak draw, where I expect the peak
draws to happen during take off and landing, not so much during cruise..
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --------
> Igor
>
>
Well, the designer is a pretty sharp dude. I suspect that if the system
operation would be stable at those settings, he'd have used them. I
suspect that you'll find that system voltage in an a/c isn't
particularly stable, and setting the margin that close will give lots of
'nuisance trips'. But this is experimental aviation; give it a shot &
let us know how it goes.
Charlie
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
donvansanten(at)gmail.com wrote:
> It seems that you want to do something that a standby system was never meant
to do. If you insist on being able to make multiple departures after the primary
alt quits, maybe you should use 2 60 amp alternators with independant controls.
a better plan would be to use tje secondary system as dezigned and continue
your flight as far as the fuel on board allows, land and make repairs and then
continue on. Irf your car breaks down do stop for repairs or try to drive
it home?
>
I understand, the system wasn't designed with my plan in mind. The question is:
Is it possible to apply my idea as requested or won't physics allow it?
When I look at the gear driven main B&C 462H (60amp) alternator -it is supposed
to deliver 41.3Amps at cruise RPM 2450. This is 11.3 Amps more than the 30Amps
Stby Alt. This would not leave me with 2 identical alternators either.
One can wait for a week or more before the replacement unit arrives in Europe.
We have a completely different network here. Further, you will hardly find a service
center willing to touch an experimental.
It is quite common in airlines that items get on MEL (minimum equipment list) if
they fail and the airplane can depart for another flight although limited by
weather or any other restriction. It doesn't mean that you are grounded as soon
as something fails, provided there is a backup system available and functional.
Not to compare to cars..
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486724#486724
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:
> :
>
> operation would be stable at those settings, he'd have used them. I
> suspect that you'll find that system voltage in an a/c isn't
> particularly stable, and setting the margin that close will give lots of
> 'nuisance trips'. But this is experimental aviation; give it a shot &
> let us know how it goes.
>
> Charlie
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
That's a good point Charlie, it might trigger the Stby Alt (online) warning light
for example right after engine start, taxiing with all el. equipment on. The
same might happen in an aircraft with single battery and single alternator setup
when after engine start and on idle rpm a lot of el. equipment is turned
on.
Anything else to consider?
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486725#486725
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
On 1/4/2019 9:18 PM, supik wrote:
>
>
> ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:
>> :
>>
>> operation would be stable at those settings, he'd have used them. I
>> suspect that you'll find that system voltage in an a/c isn't
>> particularly stable, and setting the margin that close will give lots of
>> 'nuisance trips'. But this is experimental aviation; give it a shot &
>> let us know how it goes.
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
> That's a good point Charlie, it might trigger the Stby Alt (online) warning light
for example right after engine start, taxiing with all el. equipment on.
The same might happen in an aircraft with single battery and single alternator
setup when after engine start and on idle rpm a lot of el. equipment is turned
on.
>
> Anything else to consider?
>
> --------
> Igor
>
With the exception of some of the really small alternators, like the
small Permanent Magnet 'dynamos', That doesn't happen. (Empirical
evidence, looking at virtually all planes flying (and cars driving) with
modern alternators.)
What I'm talking about is normal operation, as larger loads come & go in
the system, if the two setpoints are only .5V apart.
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
On 1/4/2019 9:02 PM, supik wrote:
>
>
> donvansanten(at)gmail.com wrote:
>> It seems that you want to do something that a standby system was never meant
to do. If you insist on being able to make multiple departures after the primary
alt quits, maybe you should use 2 60 amp alternators with independant controls.
a better plan would be to use tje secondary system as dezigned and continue
your flight as far as the fuel on board allows, land and make repairs and
then continue on. Irf your car breaks down do stop for repairs or try to drive
it home?
>>
>
> I understand, the system wasn't designed with my plan in mind. The question is:
Is it possible to apply my idea as requested or won't physics allow it?
>
> When I look at the gear driven main B&C 462H (60amp) alternator -it is supposed
to deliver 41.3Amps at cruise RPM 2450. This is 11.3 Amps more than the 30Amps
Stby Alt. This would not leave me with 2 identical alternators either.
>
> One can wait for a week or more before the replacement unit arrives in Europe.
We have a completely different network here. Further, you will hardly find a
service center willing to touch an experimental.
>
> It is quite common in airlines that items get on MEL (minimum equipment list)
if they fail and the airplane can depart for another flight although limited
by weather or any other restriction. It doesn't mean that you are grounded as
soon as something fails, provided there is a backup system available and functional.
Not to compare to cars..
>
> --------
> Igor
>
To address the supply chain delay issue, I'd suggest a consult with B&C
about whether their regulators are 'married' to their alternators. There
are *many* off-the-shelf automotive alternators that will fit on the
forward mount of a Lyc. And with proper hookup to an alternator made for
external regulation a regulator is just a regulator. So with the right
automotive part # in hand, you should be able to local source a
temporary replacement for the belt driven model.
To address the short term 'continue the mission' issue, I note that the
462H data sheet says that "may be used as either a Primary or a Standby
Alternator, depending on your electrical system configuration."
With that knowledge in hand, and care in the regulator mounting
locations and harness design, if you have a primary *alternator* failure
you'd have the option upon next landing to move the standby alternator
control to the primary regulator. Now the only failure that keeps you at
13.5V would be failure of the primary *regulator*. If it's that
important to have 100% dispatch, carry a spare regulator.
Charlie
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:
> On 1/4/2019 9:18 PM, supik wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:
> > > :
> > >
> > > operation would be stable at those settings, he'd have used them. I
> > > suspect that you'll find that system voltage in an a/c isn't
> > > particularly stable, and setting the margin that close will give lots of
> > > 'nuisance trips'. But this is experimental aviation; give it a shot &
> > > let us know how it goes.
> > >
> > > Charlie
> > >
> > > ---
> > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> >
> > That's a good point Charlie, it might trigger the Stby Alt (online) warning
light for example right after engine start, taxiing with all el. equipment on.
The same might happen in an aircraft with single battery and single alternator
setup when after engine start and on idle rpm a lot of el. equipment is turned
on.
> >
> > Anything else to consider?
> >
> > --------
> > Igor
> >
> > With the exception of some of the really small alternators, like the
> >
>
> small Permanent Magnet 'dynamos', That doesn't happen. (Empirical
> evidence, looking at virtually all planes flying (and cars driving) with
> modern alternators.)
>
> What I'm talking about is normal operation, as larger loads come & go in
> the system, if the two setpoints are only .5V apart.
This might be indeed the limiting factor.. I'll check the battery's minimum charging
voltage with the manufacturer.
Thanks,
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486728#486728
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
14.7 volts is a little too much for continuous charging. You do not want to
damage the battery. Odyssey recommends 13.6 for continuous float charge.
There are hundreds of RV-12s flying whose Ducati regulators are set at 13.8
volts, enough to keep the battery charged. How about setting the main
regulator at 14.3 or 14.4 and set the standby regulator at 13.7 or 13.8 which
will keep the battery charged. And there will be enough voltage differential
spread to warn of low voltage if the main alternator fails.
> For this setup I need the Aux Alternator to be able to charge at min
> 14.1V to recharge the battery -correct?
No, 13.8 is enough.
--------
Joe Gores
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486729#486729
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
user9253 wrote:
> 14.7 volts is a little too much for continuous charging. You do not want to
> damage the battery. Odyssey recommends 13.6 for continuous float charge.
> There are hundreds of RV-12s flying whose Ducati regulators are set at 13.8
> volts, enough to keep the battery charged. How about setting the main
> regulator at 14.3 or 14.4 and set the standby regulator at 13.7 or 13.8 which
> will keep the battery charged. And there will be enough voltage differential
> spread to warn of low voltage if the main alternator fails.
>
> > For this setup I need the Aux Alternator to be able to charge at min
> > 14.1V to recharge the battery -correct?
> No, 13.8 is enough.
I am planing to go with the Concorde RG-25XC (12V, 24Ah)
Thanks for mentioning this, but still, 14.4 - 13.8 gives a 0.6V difference.
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486730#486730
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
In one of the previous posts, Bob replies to OP:
'SB-1 is set too low. It only needs to be 0.7v or
so below your main alternator set point.
Bob . . .'
So 0.6V difference might actually work.. ??
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486731#486731
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Subject: | Re: Alternator/shunt question |
No alternator should be run at greater than 80% of its rating for any
length of time. So don't figure the backup at more than 24 amps. Even an
AGM battery will charge (perhaps slowly) at any voltage over 13 volts.
Almost all 14 V aircraft electrowhizzies will operate fine on 13V.
If you intend to limp home on the back up alternator, know what you need
electrically and assume you get only partial recharge of battery after
starter draw. I don't know how high adjustable regulators will let you
go, but there really isn't much reason to have the primary operate above
14.5, and you probably want the standby to be at something more like
13.5-13.8.
Not sure what the mission is calling for two alternators with one
battery. I've been flying 2.5 years in my RV-10 with one alternator, one
Odyssey 925L battery, and a backup battery on each of two EFIS. The
Odyssey is considerably cheaper than a Concorde or Gill, has very
comparable capacity and better cranking. Also fits in the battery tray
with room to spare. Of course if battery fails where only certified
aircraft batteries are available, the Concorde will bolt right in.
If you are trying to power two electronic ignitions, you may want to
think about 2 batteries.
Kelly
On 1/4/2019 8:02 PM, supik wrote:
>
>
> donvansanten(at)gmail.com wrote:
>> It seems that you want to do something that a standby system was never meant
to do. If you insist on being able to make multiple departures after the primary
alt quits, maybe you should use 2 60 amp alternators with independant controls.
a better plan would be to use tje secondary system as dezigned and continue
your flight as far as the fuel on board allows, land and make repairs and
then continue on. Irf your car breaks down do stop for repairs or try to drive
it home?
>>
>
>
> I understand, the system wasn't designed with my plan in mind. The question is:
Is it possible to apply my idea as requested or won't physics allow it?
>
> When I look at the gear driven main B&C 462H (60amp) alternator -it is supposed
to deliver 41.3Amps at cruise RPM 2450. This is 11.3 Amps more than the 30Amps
Stby Alt. This would not leave me with 2 identical alternators either.
>
> One can wait for a week or more before the replacement unit arrives in Europe.
We have a completely different network here. Further, you will hardly find a
service center willing to touch an experimental.
>
> It is quite common in airlines that items get on MEL (minimum equipment list)
if they fail and the airplane can depart for another flight although limited
by weather or any other restriction. It doesn't mean that you are grounded as
soon as something fails, provided there is a backup system available and functional.
Not to compare to cars..
>
> --------
> Igor
>
> RV10 in progress
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486724#486724
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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