---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/07/19: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:10 AM - Re: Re: Sifting design goals and establishing protocols (Bill Watson) 2. 11:23 AM - Re: Sifting design goals and establishing protocols (supik) 3. 11:46 AM - Z-12 Aux Alt Question (BMC_Dave) 4. 12:02 PM - Re: Sifting design goals and establishing protocols (supik) 5. 12:24 PM - Re: Re: Sifting design goals and establishing protocols (skywagon185guy) 6. 05:25 PM - Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 06:22 PM - Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question (BMC_Dave) 8. 06:38 PM - Re: Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question (Kelly McMullen) 9. 08:04 PM - Re: Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question (Charlie England) 10. 08:06 PM - Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question (BMC_Dave) 11. 10:20 PM - gps cables for stratus ESG (kjlpdx) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:27 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Sifting design goals and establishing protocols From: Bill Watson On 1/6/2019 8:43 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > Do a Z-14 and make them totally independent > of each other. This is what I implemented on my RV-10. I did a very straight up Z-14 with 40 and 20 amp alternators. For the first 500 hours or so I've flown with the 2 buses interconnected. Regulator voltage levels were staggered but not on purpose. My usual operational procedure was to start on 1 battery with my (3) power hungry, unswitched MFDs running on the other battery. Bob helped me understand that this was exactly the opposite of the way I should be running things. After swapping out the light weight starter that came with the Van's engine package (too high a momentary current draw turning over the IO540), I began doing all starts with both batteries and buses interconnected. Then I disconnect them for flight. I've run that way for the last 600 hours. Running on 2 separate batteries, alternators and buses makes most any failure both readily apparent and easily recoverable in flight. At one point I had a LRC3 fail but the Z-14 made it reasonable for me continue my multi-leg trip, VFR-only, before returning to my home shop for repair. The Z-14 is a very robust design and easy to implement in the RV-10. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:23:43 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Sifting design goals and establishing protocols From: "supik" Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com wrote: > On 1/6/2019 8:43 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > > Do a Z-14 and make them totally independent > > of each other. > > > > > > This is what I implemented on my RV-10. I did a very straight up Z-14 > with 40 and 20 amp alternators. For the first 500 hours or so I've > flown with the 2 buses interconnected. Regulator voltage levels were > staggered but not on purpose. My usual operational procedure was to > start on 1 battery with my (3) power hungry, unswitched MFDs running on > the other battery. Bob helped me understand that this was exactly the > opposite of the way I should be running things. > > After swapping out the light weight starter that came with the Van's > engine package (too high a momentary current draw turning over the > IO540), I began doing all starts with both batteries and buses > interconnected. Then I disconnect them for flight. I've run that way > for the last 600 hours. > > Running on 2 separate batteries, alternators and buses makes most any > failure both readily apparent and easily recoverable in flight. At one > point I had a LRC3 fail but the Z-14 made it reasonable for me continue > my multi-leg trip, VFR-only, before returning to my home shop for repair. > > The Z-14 is a very robust design and easy to implement in the RV-10. > > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus While I like the Z-14 architecture (it is very much similar to heavy iron logic) -it requires 2 batteries. My design goal is 1 batt + 2 alternators. -------- Igor RV10 in progress Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486802#486802 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:46:08 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-12 Aux Alt Question From: "BMC_Dave" Taking a chance and posting my in-work Z-12 power architecture. I'm trying to decide what behavior I want from my aux alt. Whether I want it to remain automatic or be manually switched. Bob had previously suggested using an additional LR3 regulator for an independently switched aux alt that was connected directly to the e-bus. I'm wondering if I move the aux alt to the e-bus can I continue to use the standby regulator provided in the B&C "Complete RV-10 bundle"? What affect will putting it behind the isolating diode from the main bus have, if any? Thanks. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486805#486805 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/z12_pr_1_177.pdf ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:02:43 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Sifting design goals and establishing protocols From: "supik" Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com wrote: > On 1/6/2019 8:43 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > > Do a Z-14 and make them totally independent > > of each other. > > > > > > ... Regulator voltage levels were > staggered but not on purpose. .. Thanks for sharing this info, good to know that they don't like to be setup at same set point if operating on a common bus. -------- Igor RV10 in progress Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486806#486806 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:24:59 PM PST US From: skywagon185guy Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Sifting design goals and establishing protocols "....When utilizing LR-3 regulators for both alternators set at the same volts output will they share the loads equally? 50:50?....." Paralleling/matching the regulators might work "one" time during the set-up. But, environmental changes will make each reg. system respond slightly differently. The point is, they will never stay in balance as you would expect as a 50/50 balance. Then, there is the chance that the one, low power, system will be handling all or most of the electrical load. On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 9:17 AM Bill Watson wrote: > On 1/6/2019 8:43 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > Do a Z-14 and make them totally independent > > of each other. > > This is what I implemented on my RV-10. I did a very straight up Z-14 > with 40 and 20 amp alternators. For the first 500 hours or so I've > flown with the 2 buses interconnected. Regulator voltage levels were > staggered but not on purpose. My usual operational procedure was to > start on 1 battery with my (3) power hungry, unswitched MFDs running on > the other battery. Bob helped me understand that this was exactly the > opposite of the way I should be running things. > > After swapping out the light weight starter that came with the Van's > engine package (too high a momentary current draw turning over the > IO540), I began doing all starts with both batteries and buses > interconnected. Then I disconnect them for flight. I've run that way > for the last 600 hours. > > Running on 2 separate batteries, alternators and buses makes most any > failure both readily apparent and easily recoverable in flight. At one > point I had a LRC3 fail but the Z-14 made it reasonable for me continue > my multi-leg trip, VFR-only, before returning to my home shop for repair. > > The Z-14 is a very robust design and easy to implement in the RV-10. > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:24 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-12 Aux Alt Question At 01:45 PM 1/7/2019, you wrote: > >Taking a chance and posting my in-work Z-12 power architecture. > >I'm trying to decide what behavior I want from my aux alt. Whether I >want it to remain automatic or be manually switched. Bob had >previously suggested using an additional LR3 regulator for an >independently switched aux alt that was connected directly to the >e-bus. I'm wondering if I move the aux alt to the e-bus can I >continue to use the standby regulator provided in the B&C "Complete >RV-10 bundle"? What affect will putting it behind the isolating >diode from the main bus have, if any? Why move it to the e-bus? Z-12 allows either alternator to power the aircraft not unlike the FAA approved installations in TC aircraft. Given that the standby alternator is much more robust than the machines available when the e-bus was combined with the SD-8 for a 'minimalist' solution, there seems to be little value in putting an egg-beater to architectures that have proven to meet design goals for a couple decades now. What failure is best mitigated by moving the altenrator to the e-bus than by leaving it on the main bus? You can use either regulator . . . it's just that the SB1 running alone does not offer lv warning while the LR3 does. If you already have an SB1, then it wall suffice for the purpose of controlling the standby alternator. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:44 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question From: "BMC_Dave" nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > At 01:45 PM 1/7/2019, you wrote: > > Why move it to the e-bus? Primarily because the BC410-H standby alternator won't provide the 43.88 amps I need for IFR cruise for everything on the main bus. It seems reasonable to put the power generator on the e-bus for my electrically dependent engine as it's an easy way to isolate those critical components. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486811#486811 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:03 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question From: Kelly McMullen That sounds like a fairly high continuous load. If I am in conditions to need pitot heat, all my avionics, nav lights, strobes and pitot heat totals about 23-24 amps. Adding landing light, which is not considered a continuous load only gets me up to 34 amps. That is with certified IFR GPS/nav/com, second nav com, ADS-B in and out equipment, two 10" EFIS/MFD screens, 2 axis autopilot, LED nav/strobe lights, 2 incandescent landing lights. My load total includes a couple amps for charging the EFIS backup batteries. Old incandescent nav lights and tube type strobes instead of LEDs wouldn't get me to 40 amps. IF you are into a standby alternator, the second nav/com can be turned off. The second EFIS screen could be turned off. Etc. A standby should not have to carry more than your essential load, not a full night-time IFR deice type of load. On 1/7/2019 7:21 PM, BMC_Dave wrote: > > > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: >> At 01:45 PM 1/7/2019, you wrote: >> >> Why move it to the e-bus? > > > Primarily because the BC410-H standby alternator won't provide the 43.88 amps I need for IFR cruise for everything on the main bus. It seems reasonable to put the power generator on the e-bus for my electrically dependent engine as it's an easy way to isolate those critical components. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486811#486811 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:39 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question From: Charlie England I'm not Dave, but one possible reason for the difference could be an electronic injection engine. The fuel pump alone will be around 6A. Another amp or two for ignition, and the injectors can peak at several amps each. Those are likely minimum numbers. Charlie On 1/7/2019 8:35 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > > > That sounds like a fairly high continuous load. If I am in conditions > to need pitot heat, all my avionics, nav lights, strobes and pitot > heat totals about 23-24 amps. Adding landing light, which is not > considered a continuous load only gets me up to 34 amps. That is with > certified IFR GPS/nav/com, second nav com, ADS-B in and out equipment, > two 10" EFIS/MFD screens, 2 axis autopilot, LED nav/strobe lights, 2 > incandescent landing lights. My load total includes a couple amps for > charging the EFIS backup batteries. Old incandescent nav lights and > tube type strobes instead of LEDs wouldn't get me to 40 amps. > IF you are into a standby alternator, the second nav/com can be turned > off. The second EFIS screen could be turned off. Etc. A standby should > not have to carry more than your essential load, not a full night-time > IFR deice type of load. > > On 1/7/2019 7:21 PM, BMC_Dave wrote: >> >> >> >> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: >>> At 01:45 PM 1/7/2019, you wrote: >>> >>> Why move it to the e-bus? >> >> >> Primarily because the BC410-H standby alternator won't provide the >> 43.88 amps I need for IFR cruise for everything on the main bus. It >> seems reasonable to put the power generator on the e-bus for my >> electrically dependent engine as it's an easy way to isolate those >> critical components. >> >> >> --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:53 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question From: "BMC_Dave" I agree it is a high continuous load, nevertheless that's what's required. Albeit with a little headroom on some things (lights, for example). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486814#486814 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/load_272.jpg ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:52 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: gps cables for stratus ESG From: "kjlpdx" I spoke with appareo tech support and received this reply. I haven't yet looked into finding BNC connectors to make up a new cable. Kevin, I asked our design engineers for some input and here is what I got in response from them: looking at pasternack, RG400 has a cable loss of about 14.7dB per 100ft at 1GHz. so if I pretend the loss is about 15dB per 100ft at 1575MHz. that is about 1.5dB. Is that what we spec for a minimum loss? if so if you are to used RG178 which pasternack states it has a cable loss of about 44.41dB per 100 ft at 1GHz. So 3ft 4 in of cable will be more than 1.48dB of loss. I would stay away from connectors, they are extra points of failure and reflections. Kevin, I would bump the length of RG178 up just a little. Then manuals says 2 db loss as a minimum and they figured it for 1.5 db loss which is probably still OK. Greg --------------- Original Message --------------- From: Kevin Lane [kevinlane55@gmail.com] Sent: 1/6/2019 11:48 PM Subject: Stratus Products that I own From: Kevin Lane Subject: Stratus Products that I own Name: Kevin Lane Email: Phone: Message Body: I installed my ESG with 3' of RG400 gps antenna cable. I know you said 10' minimum, but I don't want all that cable behind the panel. is there another solution? I am getting 42db on several satellites. frankly I wonder if this is really a problem with my VFR only airplane. would the prior RG58 cable work better? would additional mechanical connectors reduce the signal a bit? I also spray painted the antenna black with no change in sensitivity. I fly an RV. [experimental class] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486816#486816 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.