---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 01/08/19: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:24 AM - Re: Re: Sifting design goals and establishing protocols (Bill Watson) 2. 07:06 AM - Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question (Tundra10) 3. 08:06 AM - Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question (BMC_Dave) 4. 09:01 AM - EarthX 900 cutting off during start sequence (Ralph E. Capen) 5. 09:35 AM - Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question (BMC_Dave) 6. 09:45 AM - Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question (Tundra10) 7. 10:51 AM - Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question (BMC_Dave) 8. 12:25 PM - Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question (supik) 9. 12:46 PM - Re: EarthX 900 cutting off during start sequence () 10. 01:39 PM - Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question (supik) 11. 02:13 PM - Re: Sifting design goals and establishing protocols (supik) 12. 03:00 PM - Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question (BMC_Dave) 13. 03:21 PM - Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question (supik) 14. 03:41 PM - Re: EarthX 900 cutting off during start sequence (Ralph E. Capen) 15. 06:16 PM - Re: Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question (Charlie England) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:24:42 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Sifting design goals and establishing protocols From: Bill Watson On 1/7/2019 3:01 PM, supik wrote: > > > Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com wrote: >> On 1/6/2019 8:43 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >>> Do a Z-14 and make them totally independent >>> of each other. >>> >>> >> ... Regulator voltage levels were >> staggered but not on purpose. .. > > Thanks for sharing this info, good to know that they don't like to be setup at same set point if operating on a common bus. > I didn't mean to imply that at all. At one point I did get them adjusted to the same voltage and ran that way for sometime while I was still running interconnected 100% of the time - no problem what so ever. It still happens that I'll run interconnected because I forget to disconnect them after takeoff. The only liability in running interconnected with both regulators set at roughly the same level is that I may not immediately be aware of say a failing regulator or alternator. Otherwise there seems to be zero impact. Two related issues: 1) I mounted my regulators on the back of the firewall which can be a very difficult place to access on the '10. I was unable to easily adjust the voltage level on the regulator so I just let it stay 'staggered' until I came up with a customized screwdriver that permitted adjustment. 2) You have to pay attention to where you tap the bus voltage for measurement and display. Turned out that taking the voltage picked up by my GRT EIS for one bus and taking the voltage picked up by my GRT EFIS for the other bus did not produce comparable values. It took me awhile to figure that one out. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:15 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question From: "Tundra10" You may have already caught this, but the feed to the aux alternator field needs to come from the endurance bus, or the alternator wont work while the main bus is turned off. Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486823#486823 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:41 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question From: "BMC_Dave" Tundra10 wrote: > You may have already caught this, but the feed to the aux alternator field needs to come from the endurance bus, or the alternator wont work while the main bus is turned off. > > Jeff Page > Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 Correct, but thanks for pointing that out. Hopefully I've adequately articulated my need for a separate endurance bus with its own power generating capabilities, given my electrically dependent engine. If the standby alt is on the e-bus, then when the main alt goes offline the standby will still be regulated by the battery voltage but would be unable to charge it unless the e-bus alt feed was closed. Is it advantageous to leave the e-bus alt feed closed for normal ops then? If that were the case would I want to switch that relay to another contactor? Also if I'm understanding correctly the recommendation is to run two LR3 units instead of the LR3 on the main and SB1 on aux? Presumably I'd set the standby LR3 voltage lower than the main and if the main goes offline the standby would automatically come up and start powering the e-bus? Just want to run through the functionality and make sure I'm understanding it correctly, thanks. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486826#486826 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:01:27 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: AeroElectric-List: EarthX 900 cutting off during start sequence Folks, The last few times i have gone out to fly, my EarthX 900 battery has cut completely out during the starting sequence. Wait two minutes and it comes back for another try. With a pre-heated engine and spun the prop by hand a couple of times before the start sequence to make sure there is no hydraulic lock. Fully charged and tests passed with the EarthX charger. My first thoughts are not the battery's fault and I have sent EarthX a note with questions. Next, I am thinking about loosening and re-tightening all of my starter related electrical connections. Less than 400 hours on the engine and starter - about 100 hours on the battery. Thoughts please! Ralph Capen ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:35:44 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question From: "BMC_Dave" Looking at B&C's offerings it seems they have a standby alt that will make 41.3 amps at my IO-540s cruise RPM, I don't recall seeing these on their site in the recent past? Anyway since it seems one of these would power my entire system I don't need a separate endurance bus, that would be the preferred route. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486829#486829 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:52 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question From: "Tundra10" It is the choice of approach many of us struggle with (at least I do). On one hand, there is the concept of a failed alternator triggering use of an endurance bus, so you don't have to choose what equipment can be supported for a pre-determined period of time on a battery with a known good state, or indefinitely on a second alternator with smaller capacity. On the other hand was the procedure we all learned initially training on a Cessna. In the case of fire, turn off the master and land in a field. With an electrically dependent engine we need a way to shut off everything except electronic ignition, electronic fuel injection and fuel pumps with a single switch. If you plan to routinely fly IFR, then most of everything ends up on the endurance bus, leaving a landing light and a couple of other things on the main bus. In case of fire, turning off the main contactor to run on the endurance bus may not isolate the fault. The minimum equipment to fly day VFR to the next point of intended landing is easy. With an IFR equipped plane, the minimum equipment to do that will vary a lot depending on the flight conditions at the time. To me, a low voltage warning light is very important, since in that situation, you can selectively turn off devices not needed at the time until the light goes out, indicating the secondary alternator is capable of indefinitely carrying the selected load. Not as easy as just flicking off the main contactor and going on the endurance bus, but still simple enough that major troubleshooting is not required. As far as automatic fail over to the second alternator goes, there is no rush. The battery will not significantly discharge during the couple of minutes it might take to notice the low voltage warning indicator and you manually activating the endurance bus and the second alternator. The evolution of my electrical architecture has gone from an elaborate setup, to Z13 with way too much stuff on the endurance bus, to most of it back on the main bus. Once you choose your approach, the rest will fall into place more easily. Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486830#486830 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:50 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question From: "BMC_Dave" Tundra10 wrote: > It is the choice of approach many of us struggle with (at least I do). > > On one hand, there is the concept of a failed alternator triggering use of an endurance bus, so you don't have to choose what equipment can be supported for a pre-determined period of time on a battery with a known good state, or indefinitely on a second alternator with smaller capacity. > > On the other hand was the procedure we all learned initially training on a Cessna. In the case of fire, turn off the master and land in a field. With an electrically dependent engine we need a way to shut off everything except electronic ignition, electronic fuel injection and fuel pumps with a single switch. > > If you plan to routinely fly IFR, then most of everything ends up on the endurance bus, leaving a landing light and a couple of other things on the main bus. In case of fire, turning off the main contactor to run on the endurance bus may not isolate the fault. > > The minimum equipment to fly day VFR to the next point of intended landing is easy. With an IFR equipped plane, the minimum equipment to do that will vary a lot depending on the flight conditions at the time. To me, a low voltage warning light is very important, since in that situation, you can selectively turn off devices not needed at the time until the light goes out, indicating the secondary alternator is capable of indefinitely carrying the selected load. Not as easy as just flicking off the main contactor and going on the endurance bus, but still simple enough that major troubleshooting is not required. > > As far as automatic fail over to the second alternator goes, there is no rush. The battery will not significantly discharge during the couple of minutes it might take to notice the low voltage warning indicator and you manually activating the endurance bus and the second alternator. > > The evolution of my electrical architecture has gone from an elaborate setup, to Z13 with way too much stuff on the endurance bus, to most of it back on the main bus. > > Once you choose your approach, the rest will fall into place more easily. > > Jeff Page > Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 Yeah this basically sums up my process so far. I'm setting up for IFR and did find I needed most things like you said. A single bus, battery, and dual alternators seem like the simplest route that will provide enough redundancy for my comfort. The only thing I see now is the single battery contactor. I recall discussions either here or on VAF about B&C alternators continuing to run should they lose the battery connection, so it sounds like my panel wouldn't just go dark if that were to happen (ignoring EFIS battery backups). Would be prudent to provide a redundant battery path, perhaps two contactors in parallel? I know you've all said contactor failures are rare, and that they also corrode quite significantly with age. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486832#486832 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:25:52 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question From: "supik" BMC_Dave wrote: > > > The only thing I see now is the single battery contactor. I recall discussions either here or on VAF about B&C alternators continuing to run should they lose the battery connection, so it sounds like my panel wouldn't just go dark if that were to happen (ignoring EFIS battery backups). This is true in case the alternator is feeding the very same bus from where it is being operated. -------- Igor RV10 in progress Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486833#486833 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:05 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EarthX 900 cutting off during start sequence Ralph, At what temperature are you attempting your first start. It is my understanding that the LI-ion batteries, when very cold don't have much oomph, however hitting the starter for a second or two warms them up, internally,=C2- and they function normally. Perhaps this is what is happ ening to you. Rich In a message dated 1/8/2019 11:03:09 AM Central Standard Time, recapen@eart hlink.net writes: k.net> Folks, The last few times i have gone out to fly, my EarthX 900 battery has cut co mpletely out during the starting sequence.=C2- Wait two minutes and it co mes back for another try.=C2- With a pre-heated engine and spun the prop by hand a couple of times before the start sequence to make sure there is n o hydraulic lock. Fully charged and tests passed with the EarthX charger. My first thoughts are not the battery's fault and I have sent EarthX a note with questions.=C2- Next, I am thinking about loosening and re-tightenin g all of my starter related electrical connections. Less than 400 hours on the engine and starter - about 100 hours on the batt ery. Thoughts please! Ralph Capen - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2 ====================== ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:39:47 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question From: "supik" Tundra10 wrote: > It is the choice of approach many of us struggle with (at least I do). > > On one hand, there is the concept of a failed alternator triggering use of an endurance bus, so you don't have to choose what equipment can be supported for a pre-determined period of time on a battery with a known good state, or indefinitely on a second alternator with smaller capacity. > > On the other hand was the procedure we all learned initially training on a Cessna. In the case of fire, turn off the master and land in a field. With an electrically dependent engine we need a way to shut off everything except electronic ignition, electronic fuel injection and fuel pumps with a single switch. > > If you plan to routinely fly IFR, then most of everything ends up on the endurance bus, leaving a landing light and a couple of other things on the main bus. In case of fire, turning off the main contactor to run on the endurance bus may not isolate the fault. > > The minimum equipment to fly day VFR to the next point of intended landing is easy. With an IFR equipped plane, the minimum equipment to do that will vary a lot depending on the flight conditions at the time. To me, a low voltage warning light is very important, since in that situation, you can selectively turn off devices not needed at the time until the light goes out, indicating the secondary alternator is capable of indefinitely carrying the selected load. Not as easy as just flicking off the main contactor and going on the endurance bus, but still simple enough that major troubleshooting is not required. > > As far as automatic fail over to the second alternator goes, there is no rush. The battery will not significantly discharge during the couple of minutes it might take to notice the low voltage warning indicator and you manually activating the endurance bus and the second alternator. > > The evolution of my electrical architecture has gone from an elaborate setup, to Z13 with way too much stuff on the endurance bus, to most of it back on the main bus. > > Once you choose your approach, the rest will fall into place more easily. > > Jeff Page > Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 Very good point, I am just there, going through the same dilemma.. However at this stage of my knowledge (might change in near future ;) I like the idea of the e-bus as long as you are not going with Z-14. - It helps with shedding loads immediately without loosing precious time especially with a dual alternator failure or mismanagement (very unlikely but.. -it's not always technical failure, human error is a known factor and maybe one day these planes will be flown by people who did not design them, so have less systems knowledge with a combination of bad day.) - You can always continue with shedding/switching of remaining equipment on the e-bus if needed. - With my current design in case of electrical smoke I plan to isolate the equipment as follows: 1 Verify E-Bus ON (plan to keep it always ON) 2 Master OFF 3 AVIONICS 1 OFF (fed from EBUS) (this leaves me only with one PFD & backup EFIS + Garmin GAD29, GEA24, AHARS NOTE: AVIONICS 2 is fed from MAIN PWR DISTRIBUTION BUS IF smoke continues: 4 EBUS -OFF (only backup EFIS with own battery available) In case of ALT 1 (main) failure, again quickly shed loads with MASTER OFF. Provided the E-BUS is ON. It really might be useful in demanding situations when your head is busy flying IFR, talking to ATC, handling a non standard situation in bad wx at night :)))))))))) -------- Igor RV10 in progress Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486840#486840 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:18 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Sifting design goals and establishing protocols From: "supik" Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com wrote: > On 1/7/2019 3:01 PM, supik wrote: > > > > > > > > > Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com wrote: > > > On 1/6/2019 8:43 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > > >> Do a Z-14 and make them totally independent > > >> of each other. > > >> > > >> > > > ... Regulator voltage levels were > > > staggered but not on purpose. .. > > > > Thanks for sharing this info, good to know that they don't like to be setup at same set point if operating on a common bus. > > > > I didn't mean to imply that at all. At one point I did get them > > > > adjusted to the same voltage and ran that way for sometime while I was > still running interconnected 100% of the time - no problem what so > ever. It still happens that I'll run interconnected because I forget to > disconnect them after takeoff. The only liability in running > interconnected with both regulators set at roughly the same level is > that I may not immediately be aware of say a failing regulator or > alternator. Otherwise there seems to be zero impact. > > Two related issues: > > 1) I mounted my regulators on the back of the firewall which can be a > very difficult place to access on the '10. I was unable to easily > adjust the voltage level on the regulator so I just let it stay > 'staggered' until I came up with a customized screwdriver that permitted > adjustment. > > 2) You have to pay attention to where you tap the bus voltage for > measurement and display. Turned out that taking the voltage picked up > by my GRT EIS for one bus and taking the voltage picked up by my GRT > EFIS for the other bus did not produce comparable values. It took me > awhile to figure that one out. > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus Thanks for sharing your experience! -------- Igor RV10 in progress Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486841#486841 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:01 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question From: "BMC_Dave" Yeah I'm still torn. Having a single bus leaves no ability to isolate components, but like was mentioned continued IFR flight requires almost everything on the e-bus anyway. A single bus also means my EFIS backup batteries are now only used for brownout protection (I'm unsure if they can be manually told to use their batteries instead of ship power). Have to think on this a bit more. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486844#486844 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:37 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question From: "supik" Personally if anything major goes wrong electrically and I am in IMC, I will look for a good enroute alternate airport with best wx in the area and land. Airmanship of course, if it's close to minimums below me and my original destination has way better wx, then continue. On the ground, I will have plenty of time to check the systems, perform repairs if possible, wait for better wx and make further decisions. If the degraded system allows for a safe VFR flight, one can continue home or to destination. -------- Igor RV10 in progress Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486846#486846 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:48 PM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EarthX 900 cutting off during start sequence EarthX did respond about colder temperatures but did not make a recommendation as to warming the battery with this type of draw. I run the fuel pump as part of the starting sequence - maybe I'll try more load and then shut off the loads to crank. Thanks for the responses. -----Original Message----- From: argoldman@aol.com Sent: Jan 8, 2019 3:44 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EarthX 900 cutting off during start sequence Ralph, At what temperature are you attempting your first start. It is my understanding that the LI-ion batteries, when very cold don't have much oomph, however hitting the starter for a second or two warms them up, internally, and they function normally. Perhaps this is what is happening to you. Rich In a message dated 1/8/2019 11:03:09 AM Central Standard Time, recapen@earthlink.net writes: Folks, The last few times i have gone out to fly, my EarthX 900 battery has cut completely out during the starting sequence. Wait two minutes and it comes back for another try. With a pre-heated engine and spun the prop by hand a couple of times before the start sequence to make sure there is no hydraulic lock. Fully charged and tests passed with the EarthX charger. My first thoughts are not the battery's fault and I have sent EarthX a note with questions. Next, I am thinking about loosening and re-tightening all of my starter related electrical connections. Less than 400 hours on the engine and starter - about 100 hours on the battery. Thoughts please! Ralph Capen ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:16:17 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 Aux Alt Question From: Charlie England On 1/8/2019 5:20 PM, supik wrote: > > Personally if anything major goes wrong electrically and I am in IMC, I will look for a good enroute alternate airport with best wx in the area and land. Airmanship of course, if it's close to minimums below me and my original destination has way better wx, then continue. > > On the ground, I will have plenty of time to check the systems, perform repairs if possible, wait for better wx and make further decisions. If the degraded system allows for a safe VFR flight, one can continue home or to destination. > > -------- > Igor > > RV10 in progress > As a FWIW, I tried to come as close as reasonably possible to 'conventional' operation: airframe power is on one switch (the master), and the engine on another. Sustained smoke in the cockpit in 'conventional' is master off NOW, & find the ground. My (not-yet-flying) electrically dependent alt engine has all it needs on its very own bus, controlled by its own switch. Everything else is on the other (airframe) bus. Dual identical alternators, one feeding each bus. (Cross-tie switch to allow either bus to be powered by the other, in case of control (switch or contactor) failure.) Response to sustained smoke would be 'airframe master off, hunt for ground', with the EFIS kept alive by its internal battery. No claim that this is the best solution. Just that it at least marginally mimics conventional operation and hopefully, will allow long conditioned responses in a high stress situation. Charlie --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.