---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 03/17/19: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:13 AM - Buy Air Jordan 1 Crimson Tint on 2019mensjordans (blair2019) 2. 09:13 AM - Battery Charger/Maintainers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: Three Questions on Z-07 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 09:56 AM - Risk mitigation (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 10:21 AM - Re: Re: Three Questions on Z-07 (Ken Ryan) 6. 10:28 AM - Re: Battery Charger/Maintainers (skywagon185guy) 7. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: Three Questions on Z-07 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 11:58 AM - Re: Battery Charger/Maintainers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 01:44 PM - Re: Three Questions on Z-07 (markfw) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:38 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Buy Air Jordan 1 Crimson Tint on 2019mensjordans From: "blair2019" After exposure,2019 Mens Jordans (https://www.2019mensjordans.com) will pay more attention. This pair of black jelly Jolly Air Jordan 1 is probably the next popular spot! The pink Air Jordan 1 is quite rare. In 2017, the airborne Air Jordan 1 Rust Pink was released at the Art Basel in Miami. It has already broken through the 2w yuan mark, and the new product that will be released soon will undoubtedly appear. More close to the people! The Air Jordan 1 Crimson Tint shoe scheme uses a black and red opaque color scheme. The large black lychee covers the body, and the toe, upper and outsole and Swoosh are pink. It is worth mentioning that this time I changed the pink color of the past, there are some jelly orange atmosphere, the effect of the foot is very refreshing, the eye-catching eye-catching dress can be described as men and women! Last year adidas launched a series of super cost-effective old-fashioned shoes like Yung-1, Yung-96 and the girl-only Falcon. Recently, Falcon has another new fluorescent color exposure, which will be released next month. The adidas Falcon (https://www.2019mensjordans.com/product-category/adidas-falcon/) upper is spliced ??in shades of yellow, orange, pink and blue in a fluorescent hue. It is fresh and dazzling. The silver reflectors add to the eye-catching index of the shoes, and the tops are absolutely eye-catching. The Air Max 720 series running shoes that were released in February this year can be regarded as the highest level of technology in Nike air cushion technology. The thickness is exaggerated to 38mm, which is the thickest in history. After a variety of color matching, Nike official website recently released a set of official maps of cool gray gradient color, let's take a look. The Nike Air Max 720 Cool Grey (https://www.2019mensjordans.com/product-category/nike-air-max-720/) upper is made of synthetic cotton, complemented by a unique embossed grain embellishment, with a gradient of wolf ash and dark grey, and the upper foot effect must be versatile. At the same time, in the middle of the outer side of the shoe body, the Mini Swoosh embellishment is added to the design, and the midsole is complemented by the iconic design of the Air Max 720. It is a good choice for everyday wear. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488109#488109 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:09 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery Charger/Maintainers At 03:37 PM 3/15/2019, you wrote: > >Odyssey batteries are often prematurely aged by keeping on a battery >maintainer. If you contact Odyssey they can give you a rejuvenation >protocol to restore the battery to near full capacity. Color me skeptical about battery failures on "maintainers" . . . There was some discussion flying around the av-circles over 10 years ago wherein readers reported that Odyssey 'banned' certain brands of maintainers . . . Battery Tender included. I was mystified by this. I had been using Battery Tenders and Battery Minders on lab batteries for years with no observable problems . . . the point of a maintainer is to boost the voltage on a fully charged battery to some point just above it's open circuit resting voltage. The rationale says that one wants to transfer internal parasitic discharge loads from the CHEMISTRY to an EXTERNAL source. My maintainers always sat at about 13.1 to 13.4 volts after their run-up during charge. Emacs! Emacs! During a battery failure investigation for Raytheon- Beech, I had occasion to query a Hawker-Enersys engineer about this topic. He had no knowledge of any perceived problems with the wall-warts vs. Odyssey products . . . those issues were addressed in a different division of Enersys. I continued to use my trusty constellation of wall-warts with pleasing results. I note that Odyssey has their own flavor of battery charger. See https://tinyurl.com/y67jy8tb It offers a charging profile that looks like this: Emacs! A search of the 'net revealed several products featuring 4 to 7 stages of charging. Who wuda thunk it? I wondered if that 'auto maintain' profile was dictated by Odyssey . . . or simply popped up as a feature in a charger they are re-branding. The 'storage recondition mode' is also a puzzle. It has the look and smell of a pulsed energy profile intended to 'break up' lead sulfide crystals. I've seen countless articles on battery de-sufation with near miraculous claims for having preserved or recovering a trashed lead-acid battery. Check out this article at Battery University: https://tinyurl.com/y2kdehzt The comments are worth reading too. Note that one comment that cites dozens of patents on de-sulfation technology wherein the inventor claims all previous patents are inadequate or worthless. I note that this document on the Odyssey website . . . https://tinyurl.com/y429aqbj speaks of SVLA battery recovery process that calls for several cycles of discharge to 10v, charge and top off at 14.7 followed by float at 13.6. Those numbers have been around for nearly 30 years. To date, I've not learned of any useful deviations. Just for grins, I ordered this latest-n-greatest version of a Battery Minder https://tinyurl.com/y32cjfvv So forgive me if, in the absence of any engineering test documentation, I am reluctant to embrace any notion that there's really something new under the sun in battery chargers. I'll keep y'al posted on the super-whippy Battery Tender. > I'm at about 4 years on my Odyssey 925 in the Aridzona heat, and > still working fine. Have you cap-checked the battery recently? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:48 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Three Questions on Z-07 At 10:19 AM 3/16/2019, you wrote: >The best reason I can think of to have two batteries is to get the >engine started if the primary battery doesn't get the job done, and >you happen to be on some remote Alaskan gravel bar. Many modern >aircraft cannot be hand propped. One battery, sized and MAINTAINED for the task will never fail to get the engine started. Cranking the engine requires but 3-6 percent of a battery's contained energy . . . a trivial sum. If the battery fails to get an engine started, it's axiomatic that it's suitability for continued flight has long since past. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:56:51 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Risk mitigation > Some builders are willing to sacrifice money and performance for their >peace of mind. All we can do is look over their shoulder and point out >anything that is dangerous. If a builder wants to install two large >batteries, he will do it whether there is a Z figure for it or not. >Without guidance, his architecture could have a design flaw Of course . . . and I have never suggested that anyone fly with less than optimum comfort in their design decisions. The freedom to customize our projects goes to that goal. Yes there have been gross failures in batteries. There have been jugs thrown from engines. There have been intractable in-flight fires. But these are exceedingly rare. I believe the statistics will still tell us that the #1 cause of engine failure is fuel exhaustion. #1 cause of munched airframes is from controlled or uncontrolled flight into terrain; the outcomes of lapse in attention to the necessities of heavier-than-air flight. There is a cartoon parody describing the effects of over-worrying risks suffered from the conduct of relatively ordinary tasks. osha_cowboy Emacs! The "OSHA Cowboy" was hypothesized back in the 70s . . . a classic complaint about the effects of bureaucratic worrying becoming law. OSHA folks are PAID to worry. Many within the FAA are similarly engaged in no-value-added rule making. ISO9000 was probably the greatest destructive force to creative innovation in the history of industry. At least for now, we are relatively free of such encumbrances. But it behooves us to explore, discuss, share, experiment and discard all but the most effective prophylactics against risk. And I told him that switch makes his airplane less safe. But I was only one person. Several others told my friend to install that switch. So he did. . . . and so you did your duty as an honorable member of the community of aviators. Fly comfortably my friend . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:21:00 AM PST US From: Ken Ryan Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Three Questions on Z-07 "One battery, sized and MAINTAINED for the task will never fail to get the engine started." I get your point Bob, but never say never. We already have one well respected report of battery failure, not attributable to abuse, just from the very small sample that consists of the current active members of this list. (You yourself did the autopsy.) And remember, we are not all flying airport to airport, or landing in some farmer's field in Kansas, next to the Interstate (or even county road). Here in Alaska, we might be landing at some unimproved strip on the tundra, 150 miles from the nearest road. This would be commonplace here. Also consider cold weather operations where the battery might not be performing at 100% and the engine might be stiff (and you might be sitting at some remote landing spot with the 4 hours of available daylight fading quickly). The consequences of a non-start on the engine vary so much depending upon the circumstances, I submit that it is not at all unreasonable to either incorporate a second starting battery, or at least carry one. Ken On Sun, Mar 17, 2019 at 8:22 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 10:19 AM 3/16/2019, you wrote: > > The best reason I can think of to have two batteries is to get the engine > started if the primary battery doesn't get the job done, and you happen to > be on some remote Alaskan gravel bar. Many modern aircraft cannot be hand > propped. > > > One battery, sized and MAINTAINED for the > task will never fail to get the engine > started. > > Cranking the engine requires but 3-6 > percent of a battery's contained > energy . . . a trivial sum. If the > battery fails to get an engine started, > it's axiomatic that it's suitability > for continued flight has long since > past. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:28:28 AM PST US From: skywagon185guy Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery Charger/Maintainers Thanks Bob for these details. . . Confirms my use of these little maintainers over the last 15+ years on both autos and planes. Looking forward to your review of the "latest" Battery Tender especially what the "pulsed" energy is really doing as mentioned in the ad.... On Sun, Mar 17, 2019 at 9:19 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 03:37 PM 3/15/2019, you wrote: > > kellym@aviating.com> > > Odyssey batteries are often prematurely aged by keeping on a battery > maintainer. If you contact Odyssey they can give you a rejuvenation > protocol to restore the battery to near full capacity. > > Color me skeptical about battery failures > on "maintainers" . . . > > There was some discussion flying around the > av-circles over 10 years ago wherein readers > reported that Odyssey 'banned' certain brands > of maintainers . . . Battery Tender included. > > I was mystified by this. I had been using > Battery Tenders and Battery Minders on > lab batteries for years with no observable > problems . . . the point of a maintainer is > to boost the voltage on a fully charged > battery to some point just above it's > open circuit resting voltage. The rationale > says that one wants to transfer internal > parasitic discharge loads from the CHEMISTRY > to an EXTERNAL source. > > My maintainers always sat at about 13.1 to > 13.4 volts after their run-up during > charge. > > [image: Emacs!] > > [image: Emacs!] > > > During a battery failure investigation for Raytheon- > Beech, I had occasion to query a Hawker-Enersys engineer > about this topic. > > He had no knowledge of any perceived > problems with the wall-warts vs. Odyssey products . . . > those issues were addressed in a different > division of Enersys. > > I continued to use my trusty constellation of > wall-warts with pleasing results. > > I note that Odyssey has their own flavor of > battery charger. See https://tinyurl.com/y67jy8tb > > It offers a charging profile that looks like this: > > [image: Emacs!] > > A search of the 'net revealed several products > featuring 4 to 7 stages of charging. Who wuda thunk > it? I wondered if that 'auto maintain' profile > was dictated by Odyssey . . . or simply popped > up as a feature in a charger they are re-branding. > > The 'storage recondition mode' is also a puzzle. > It has the look and smell of a pulsed energy > profile intended to 'break up' lead sulfide > crystals. I've seen countless articles on battery > de-sufation with near miraculous claims for > having preserved or recovering a trashed lead-acid > battery. > > > Check out this article at Battery University: > > https://tinyurl.com/y2kdehzt > > The comments are worth reading too. Note that > one comment that cites dozens of patents > on de-sulfation technology wherein the > inventor claims all previous patents are > inadequate or worthless. > > I note that this document on the Odyssey > website . . . > > https://tinyurl.com/y429aqbj > > speaks of SVLA battery recovery process > that calls for several cycles of discharge > to 10v, charge and top off at 14.7 followed > by float at 13.6. Those numbers have been > around for nearly 30 years. To date, I've > not learned of any useful deviations. > > Just for grins, I ordered this latest-n-greatest > version of a Battery Minder > > https://tinyurl.com/y32cjfvv > > > So forgive me if, in the absence of any > engineering test documentation, I am > reluctant to embrace any notion that > there's really something new under the > sun in battery chargers. I'll keep > y'al posted on the super-whippy Battery > Tender. > > > I'm at about 4 years on my Odyssey 925 in the Aridzona heat, and still > working fine. > > > Have you cap-checked the battery recently? > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:53:51 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Three Questions on Z-07 At 12:06 PM 3/17/2019, you wrote: >"One battery, sized and MAINTAINED for the >=C2 task will never fail to get the engine >=C2 started." > >I get your point Bob, but never say never. We >already have one well respected report of >battery failure, not attributable to abuse, just >from the very small sample that consists of the >current active members of this list. (You yourself did the autopsy.) > >And remember, we are not all flying airport to >airport, or landing in some farmer's field in >Kansas, next to the Interstate (or even county >road). Here in Alaska, we might be landing at >some unimproved strip on the tundra, 150 miles >from the nearest road. This would be commonplace >here. Also consider cold weather operations >where the battery might not be performing at >100% and the engine might be stiff (and you >might be sitting at some remote landing spot >with the 4 hours of available daylight fading quickly). > >The consequences of a non-start on the engine >vary so much depending upon the circumstances, I >submit that it is not at all unreasonable to >either incorporate a second starting battery, or at least carry one. No argument . . . that's what FMEA, load analysis, preventative maintenance, and matching the hardware to the mission is all about. How many of the GA fleet lands on floats anywhere much less on remote lakes in the NW Territories? (BTW, about 20 years ago, I did a drawing for an Alaskan bush pilot adding an auxiliary battery to the interior of one of his floats. Lots of unused volume there. Mounting the battery there didn't penalize volume in the aircraft and was easier to manage structurally) There are NO broad brush recommendations here . . . only an encouragement to match machine and pilot to the task while maximizing utility and minimizing risk . . . a start-stick might well fill the bill. But Z07 was never completed. If the List wishes to 'fine tune' this architecture, I'd be pleased to participate in cogent argument. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:58:07 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery Charger/Maintainers At 12:24 PM 3/17/2019, you wrote: >Thanks Bob for these details. . . >Confirms my use of these little maintainers over the last 15+ years >on both autos and planes. >Looking forward to your review of the "latest" Battery Tender >especially what the "pulsed" energy is really doing as mentioned in the ad.... It may take awhile . . . I read a testimonial on this product wherein the writer claimed to have 'recovered a trashed battery to good as new'. Of course, there was no quantitative analysis of performance in the recovered battery . . . I suspect that it started and engine but capacity never checked. Out here in oil-patch-and-cowpie-country, there is a virtual mountain test subjects available to test . . . but the writer of the review did confess that he left the whizzy maintainer on for 90 days! We'll see . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:40 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Three Questions on Z-07 From: "markfw" Bob, I have assumed that I would use two batteries for 4 reasons: 1. I believed that there was a requirement to have a working battery to (magically to me) "cushion" delicate avionics from the alternator current; 2. I assumed that I could parallel the LiFePO4 batteries to aid in starting 3. I was trying to guard against a battery failure "from bringing down the whole system". 4. It is easier for me to mount two smaller batteries in parallel than one large one given my alternator-out mission requirements. It seems that reason #1 is bogus, since your discussion of "one large battery" assumes that the alternator alone can run everything required without a problem. I don't know where I got this idea. Reason #2 turns out to (maybe) be bogus as well. Two manufacturers who supply a BMS with their LiFePo4 batteries recommend AGAINST running their batteries in parallel. Apparently, low resistance in a single cell of these multi-cell LiFePO4 batteries can greatly reduce capacity and longevity. The manufacturers take great care to match the resistance of the battery cells when they build them, and their BMS's spend a lot of time "optimizing" the batteries during charge and discharge. This is not possible between paralleled batteries and a Resistance mismatch between the batteries of (for example) 20% can reduce performance by 40%. On the other hand another manufacturer who does not supply a BMS with their batteries says nothing about this. A friend of mine has used their product in parallel for 3 years without problem. So, your Z-07 diagram without parallel batteries may still be useful for people who believe this is a problem for them. Reason #3 was actually a quote from your 1998 paper "What's all this Battery Isolator Stuff Anyhow?". I have also heard it mentioned in various discussions of dual battery installations. As you point out in your 2008 paper "Myths of Multiple Battery Installation" a shorted cell is exceedingly rare. However, in an electrically dependent airplane, "rare" is in the eye of the beholder. Is there any data on this? Given the cell resistance issue LiFePO4 batteries might that chemistry be more susceptible to this problem? Finally, reason #4 is a problem that you mention and is certainly not unique to my situation. My current theory is to use the TCW backup battery solution. It is automatic, does not parallel the batteries and is a lightweight LiFePO4 solution. The disadvantage is that (currently) it is limited to a 6 amp/hr capacity, which is 30 minutes for me throttled back if I lost BOTH my alternator and primary battery. Yes, this is non-FEMA thinking to worry about two failures at the same time. I think that it depends on what the definition of "bringing down the whole system" is. If a shorted battery cell can somehow stop the alternator from functioning, isn't that actually one failure? Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488119#488119 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.