Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:32 AM - Re: ov warning light (bob noffs)
2. 06:16 AM - Re: ov warning light (Charlie England)
3. 06:49 AM - Re: ov warning light (bob noffs)
4. 07:05 AM - Possible Brownout Protection Device (Art Zemon)
5. 07:22 AM - Re: Possible Brownout Protection Device (A R Goldman)
6. 07:28 AM - Re: ov warning light (Charlie England)
7. 08:43 AM - Re: ov warning light (Alec Myers)
8. 10:15 AM - Re: ov warning light (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 12:16 PM - Re: ov warning light (bob noffs)
10. 01:52 PM - Re: ov warning light (Charlie England)
11. 01:56 PM - Re: ov warning light (Alec Myers)
12. 03:04 PM - Re: ov warning light (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 03:20 PM - Re: ov warning light (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 03:23 PM - Re: ov warning light (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 03:33 PM - Re: Piper Arrow Pitot Mast (Bevan)
16. 04:08 PM - Magnetometer wiring (bcone1381)
17. 04:19 PM - Re: ov warning light (Ken Ryan)
18. 04:30 PM - Re: Possible Brownout Protection Device (user9253)
19. 04:45 PM - Re: ov warning light (Alec Myers)
20. 04:47 PM - Re: ov warning light (user9253)
21. 04:52 PM - Re: Magnetometer wiring (Art Zemon)
22. 05:03 PM - Re: Re: ov warning light (Ken Ryan)
23. 05:19 PM - Re: Piper Arrow Pitot Mast (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
24. 05:38 PM - Re: ov warning light (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
25. 05:40 PM - Re: ov warning light (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
26. 06:14 PM - Re: ov warning light (Ken Ryan)
27. 06:22 PM - Re: ov warning light (Alec Myers)
28. 06:33 PM - Re: ov warning light (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
29. 06:44 PM - Re: ov warning light (Alec Myers)
30. 07:14 PM - Re: ov warning light (Charlie England)
31. 09:42 PM - Re: Piper Arrow Pitot Mast (Pat Little)
32. 11:01 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
33. 11:25 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
hi charlie,probably viewers of this forum have the highest % of using an
ovm. of 10 people i have personally talked to no one has one. many believe
that it is in their alternator which i think is true in some cases but who
knows which ones. yesterday on a forum one person said he was protected by
the 60 amp inline fuse on his alternator output.
i would be surprised if you said everyone you knew had one.
bob noffs
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 9:50 PM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>
> Who are you asking? :-)
>
> Charlie
>
> On 3/31/2019 9:33 PM, bob noffs wrote:
>
> hi bob,
> yea, i know. and all i am doing it for is the batteries. after asking a
> lot of questions about this over several months it seems hardly anyone is
> doing anything to protect transistors.
> bob noffs
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:21 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 07:27 AM 3/31/2019, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> hi all,
>> i put together an ov'crowbar ' for the output side of my alternator but
>> in the end i didn't use it. instead i made a warning light from a 2.2v
>> 20ma. led, 3 resistors totaling 1700 ohms and a 13v zenor diode. at 14v it
>> very faintly glows which is good to see that it is working. at 15.06 v it
>> glows brightly. not much difference between 10ma. and 20ma. in brightness
>> so i have some leeway up to 30 volts. this warning is to protect 2 earthx
>> batteries. whether or not i need it is a question but i gotta do something
>> with that hole in the panel.
>>
>>
>> EarthX battery BMS will protect the
>> batteries. The BMS will not protect
>> your avionics. If the BMS DISCONNECTS
>> the battery from a runaway alternator,
>> the bus voltage climbs at a VERY rapid
>> rate.
>>
>> Unless your ov warning is BRIGHT, SUNLIGHT
>> VIEWABLE, and FLASHES to trigger your
>> Japanese kick boxer-reflexes . . . chances
>> for making lots of transistor-toast is
>> significant . . . but the batteries
>> will be fine.
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link>
> <#m_-3003266867060444899_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
OK, your answer illuminates the real question behind my half joking
question: Who do you *trust* to answer your question? If your momma was
like most, at some point she said something like,
"If all your friends decided to jump off a cliff, would you do it too?"
I think from your answer you realize that most of the people you asked, had
no idea what you were even talking about, much less were qualified to
explain *why* they made the choice (because they never even made the
choice). Obviously the guy with the 60A fuse had no clue. Not unlike the
current crop of new parents, who read on Facebook that vaccinations might
be dangerous, so now we've got outbreaks of measles and other really
dangerous diseases putting others (who actually have good sense) at risk,
and costing us millions in otherwise unnecessary health expenses.
Dimbulb governor
<https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2019-03-21/kentucky-governor-matt-bevin-says-he-exposed-children-to-chickenpox-instead-of-vaccine>
So really, shouldn't you be asking those who've had an OV event how their
equipment fared, instead of asking those who've never needed one whether
they have one? Or limit your ask to those who have the technical expertise
to intelligently answer the question why they made their choice? I don't
have one in my current RV-4, but it's a dirt simple day vfr a/c with mags
firing the plugs, and the most expensive electrical item is the cheap, old
comm in the panel. I'm just too busy and lazy to add OV protection to it.
BUT: the RV-7 I'm building will have an electrically dependent engine with
very expensive radios and instruments. You can bet that I already have OV
protection built into both alternators on it.
Charlie
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 7:37 AM bob noffs <icubob@gmail.com> wrote:
> hi charlie,probably viewers of this forum have the highest % of using an
> ovm. of 10 people i have personally talked to no one has one. many believe
> that it is in their alternator which i think is true in some cases but who
> knows which ones. yesterday on a forum one person said he was protected by
> the 60 amp inline fuse on his alternator output.
> i would be surprised if you said everyone you knew had one.
> bob noffs
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 9:50 PM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> Who are you asking? :-)
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>> On 3/31/2019 9:33 PM, bob noffs wrote:
>>
>> hi bob,
>> yea, i know. and all i am doing it for is the batteries. after asking a
>> lot of questions about this over several months it seems hardly anyone is
>> doing anything to protect transistors.
>> bob noffs
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:21 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
>> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>>
>>> At 07:27 AM 3/31/2019, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> hi all,
>>> i put together an ov'crowbar ' for the output side of my alternator but
>>> in the end i didn't use it. instead i made a warning light from a 2.2v
>>> 20ma. led, 3 resistors totaling 1700 ohms and a 13v zenor diode. at 14v it
>>> very faintly glows which is good to see that it is working. at 15.06 v it
>>> glows brightly. not much difference between 10ma. and 20ma. in brightness
>>> so i have some leeway up to 30 volts. this warning is to protect 2 earthx
>>> batteries. whether or not i need it is a question but i gotta do something
>>> with that hole in the panel.
>>>
>>>
>>> EarthX battery BMS will protect the
>>> batteries. The BMS will not protect
>>> your avionics. If the BMS DISCONNECTS
>>> the battery from a runaway alternator,
>>> the bus voltage climbs at a VERY rapid
>>> rate.
>>>
>>> Unless your ov warning is BRIGHT, SUNLIGHT
>>> VIEWABLE, and FLASHES to trigger your
>>> Japanese kick boxer-reflexes . . . chances
>>> for making lots of transistor-toast is
>>> significant . . . but the batteries
>>> will be fine.
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon> Virus-free.
>> www.avast.com
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link>
>> <#m_1344822525544774896_m_-3003266867060444899_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
charlie, let's make the distinction between an ovm that is installed into
the a/c system and the one that is supposedly in the alternator. i am sure
some alternators have them but i have never seen any documentation about
which alt. have it and how it is done.
bob noffs
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:23 AM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
> OK, your answer illuminates the real question behind my half joking
> question: Who do you *trust* to answer your question? If your momma was
> like most, at some point she said something like,
> "If all your friends decided to jump off a cliff, would you do it too?"
>
> I think from your answer you realize that most of the people you asked,
> had no idea what you were even talking about, much less were qualified to
> explain *why* they made the choice (because they never even made the
> choice). Obviously the guy with the 60A fuse had no clue. Not unlike the
> current crop of new parents, who read on Facebook that vaccinations might
> be dangerous, so now we've got outbreaks of measles and other really
> dangerous diseases putting others (who actually have good sense) at risk,
> and costing us millions in otherwise unnecessary health expenses.
> Dimbulb governor
> <https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2019-03-21/kentucky-governor-matt-bevin-says-he-exposed-children-to-chickenpox-instead-of-vaccine>
>
> So really, shouldn't you be asking those who've had an OV event how their
> equipment fared, instead of asking those who've never needed one whether
> they have one? Or limit your ask to those who have the technical expertise
> to intelligently answer the question why they made their choice? I don't
> have one in my current RV-4, but it's a dirt simple day vfr a/c with mags
> firing the plugs, and the most expensive electrical item is the cheap, old
> comm in the panel. I'm just too busy and lazy to add OV protection to it.
> BUT: the RV-7 I'm building will have an electrically dependent engine with
> very expensive radios and instruments. You can bet that I already have OV
> protection built into both alternators on it.
>
> Charlie
>
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 7:37 AM bob noffs <icubob@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> hi charlie,probably viewers of this forum have the highest % of using an
>> ovm. of 10 people i have personally talked to no one has one. many believe
>> that it is in their alternator which i think is true in some cases but who
>> knows which ones. yesterday on a forum one person said he was protected by
>> the 60 amp inline fuse on his alternator output.
>> i would be surprised if you said everyone you knew had one.
>> bob noffs
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 9:50 PM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Bob,
>>>
>>> Who are you asking? :-)
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>>
>>> On 3/31/2019 9:33 PM, bob noffs wrote:
>>>
>>> hi bob,
>>> yea, i know. and all i am doing it for is the batteries. after asking a
>>> lot of questions about this over several months it seems hardly anyone is
>>> doing anything to protect transistors.
>>> bob noffs
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:21 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
>>> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> At 07:27 AM 3/31/2019, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> hi all,
>>>> i put together an ov'crowbar ' for the output side of my alternator
>>>> but in the end i didn't use it. instead i made a warning light from a 2.2v
>>>> 20ma. led, 3 resistors totaling 1700 ohms and a 13v zenor diode. at 14v it
>>>> very faintly glows which is good to see that it is working. at 15.06 v it
>>>> glows brightly. not much difference between 10ma. and 20ma. in brightness
>>>> so i have some leeway up to 30 volts. this warning is to protect 2 earthx
>>>> batteries. whether or not i need it is a question but i gotta do something
>>>> with that hole in the panel.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> EarthX battery BMS will protect the
>>>> batteries. The BMS will not protect
>>>> your avionics. If the BMS DISCONNECTS
>>>> the battery from a runaway alternator,
>>>> the bus voltage climbs at a VERY rapid
>>>> rate.
>>>>
>>>> Unless your ov warning is BRIGHT, SUNLIGHT
>>>> VIEWABLE, and FLASHES to trigger your
>>>> Japanese kick boxer-reflexes . . . chances
>>>> for making lots of transistor-toast is
>>>> significant . . . but the batteries
>>>> will be fine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bob . . .
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon> Virus-free.
>>> www.avast.com
>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link>
>>> <#m_5767426905250244296_m_1344822525544774896_m_-3003266867060444899_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>
>>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Possible Brownout Protection Device |
Folks,
I just ran across
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DXEU4KA/ref=psdc_10967761_t3_B06XG2KPTS and I
think it might work great as a brownout protection device for my EFIS
during engine start. It is rated at 80W and 5A. I am thinking of wiring in
in parallel with the feed to my normal bus (I only have one bus, no
avionics bus) and energizing it from the starter relay.
I worry that, with an output voltage range of 0.5 to 33V, a failure could
send 33V into my airplane.
What do you think?
-- Art Z.
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"Love wins. Love always wins." Morrie Schwartz*
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Possible Brownout Protection Device |
Or just use a backup battery and have the advantage of being able to use you
r efis in case of electrical failure... unless you are totally electric ... a
ctually there to to help you get back to terra very firma
Rich
Sent from my iPhone
> On Apr 1, 2019, at 9:04 AM, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> I just ran across https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DXEU4KA/ref=psdc_10967761
_t3_B06XG2KPTS and I think it might work great as a brownout protection devi
ce for my EFIS during engine start. It is rated at 80W and 5A. I am thinking
of wiring in in parallel with the feed to my normal bus (I only have one bu
s, no avionics bus) and energizing it from the starter relay.
>
> I worry that, with an output voltage range of 0.5 to 33V, a failure could s
end 33V into my airplane.
>
> What do you think?
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> "Love wins. Love always wins." Morrie Schwartz
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
I'm not sure how to answer; your question seems to be changing with each
post. Bob Nuckolls gave a pretty definitive answer to your original
question. It then evolved to 'what is everyone else doing', to 'do
alternators have built-in OV protection'. To answer the latest question:
it's very unlikely that an alternator that was available for cars more than
10-15 years ago will have OV protection built in, but without mfgr specs,
it's an unknown even with 'this year's model'. Newer cars tend to control
*everything* with the car's computer, even voltage regulation is being done
there on many cars now.
FWIW, using EarthX batteries without some form of OV protection to the
system will just about guarantee that an OV event will fry all your other
electronics. The EarthX will protect itself, and the resulting load dump
will allow the OV to climb to dizzying heights almost instantly.
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:55 AM bob noffs <icubob@gmail.com> wrote:
> charlie, let's make the distinction between an ovm that is installed into
> the a/c system and the one that is supposedly in the alternator. i am sure
> some alternators have them but i have never seen any documentation about
> which alt. have it and how it is done.
> bob noffs
>
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:23 AM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> OK, your answer illuminates the real question behind my half joking
>> question: Who do you *trust* to answer your question? If your momma was
>> like most, at some point she said something like,
>> "If all your friends decided to jump off a cliff, would you do it too?"
>>
>> I think from your answer you realize that most of the people you asked,
>> had no idea what you were even talking about, much less were qualified to
>> explain *why* they made the choice (because they never even made the
>> choice). Obviously the guy with the 60A fuse had no clue. Not unlike the
>> current crop of new parents, who read on Facebook that vaccinations might
>> be dangerous, so now we've got outbreaks of measles and other really
>> dangerous diseases putting others (who actually have good sense) at risk,
>> and costing us millions in otherwise unnecessary health expenses.
>> Dimbulb governor
>> <https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2019-03-21/kentucky-governor-matt-bevin-says-he-exposed-children-to-chickenpox-instead-of-vaccine>
>>
>> So really, shouldn't you be asking those who've had an OV event how their
>> equipment fared, instead of asking those who've never needed one whether
>> they have one? Or limit your ask to those who have the technical expertise
>> to intelligently answer the question why they made their choice? I don't
>> have one in my current RV-4, but it's a dirt simple day vfr a/c with mags
>> firing the plugs, and the most expensive electrical item is the cheap, old
>> comm in the panel. I'm just too busy and lazy to add OV protection to it.
>> BUT: the RV-7 I'm building will have an electrically dependent engine with
>> very expensive radios and instruments. You can bet that I already have OV
>> protection built into both alternators on it.
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 7:37 AM bob noffs <icubob@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> hi charlie,probably viewers of this forum have the highest % of using an
>>> ovm. of 10 people i have personally talked to no one has one. many believe
>>> that it is in their alternator which i think is true in some cases but who
>>> knows which ones. yesterday on a forum one person said he was protected by
>>> the 60 amp inline fuse on his alternator output.
>>> i would be surprised if you said everyone you knew had one.
>>> bob noffs
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 9:50 PM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>
>>>> Who are you asking? :-)
>>>>
>>>> Charlie
>>>>
>>>> On 3/31/2019 9:33 PM, bob noffs wrote:
>>>>
>>>> hi bob,
>>>> yea, i know. and all i am doing it for is the batteries. after asking
>>>> a lot of questions about this over several months it seems hardly anyone is
>>>> doing anything to protect transistors.
>>>> bob noffs
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:21 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
>>>> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> At 07:27 AM 3/31/2019, you wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> hi all,
>>>>> i put together an ov'crowbar ' for the output side of my alternator
>>>>> but in the end i didn't use it. instead i made a warning light from a 2.2v
>>>>> 20ma. led, 3 resistors totaling 1700 ohms and a 13v zenor diode. at 14v it
>>>>> very faintly glows which is good to see that it is working. at 15.06 v it
>>>>> glows brightly. not much difference between 10ma. and 20ma. in brightness
>>>>> so i have some leeway up to 30 volts. this warning is to protect 2 earthx
>>>>> batteries. whether or not i need it is a question but i gotta do something
>>>>> with that hole in the panel.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> EarthX battery BMS will protect the
>>>>> batteries. The BMS will not protect
>>>>> your avionics. If the BMS DISCONNECTS
>>>>> the battery from a runaway alternator,
>>>>> the bus voltage climbs at a VERY rapid
>>>>> rate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless your ov warning is BRIGHT, SUNLIGHT
>>>>> VIEWABLE, and FLASHES to trigger your
>>>>> Japanese kick boxer-reflexes . . . chances
>>>>> for making lots of transistor-toast is
>>>>> significant . . . but the batteries
>>>>> will be fine.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob . . .
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon> Virus-free.
>>>> www.avast.com
>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link>
>>>> 3003266867060444899_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1"
>>>> height="1">
>>>>
>>>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
Whether over-voltage protection that is built into the alternator along side a
regulator counts as over-voltage protection, is somewhat of an existential question.
All alternators with built in regulators have first-instance over-voltage protection,
because thats what the regulator does.
The reason to have additional over-voltage protection is to guard against a failure
in the regulator. If your additional over-voltage protection is included
in the same electronic and physical module as the regulator itself then in some
sense it is now only part of the regulator.
You may then want yet another, external, over-voltage protection to protect against
failure of the OVM in the regulator.
On Apr 1, 2019, at 9:48 AM, bob noffs <icubob@gmail.com> wrote:
charlie, let's make the distinction between an ovm that is installed into the a/c
system and the one that is supposedly in the alternator. i am sure some alternators
have them but i have never seen any documentation about which alt. have
it and how it is done.
bob noffs
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:23 AM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
OK, your answer illuminates the real question behind my half joking question: Who
do you *trust* to answer your question? If your momma was like most, at some
point she said something like,
"If all your friends decided to jump off a cliff, would you do it too?"
I think from your answer you realize that most of the people you asked, had no
idea what you were even talking about, much less were qualified to explain *why*
they made the choice (because they never even made the choice). Obviously the
guy with the 60A fuse had no clue. Not unlike the current crop of new parents,
who read on Facebook that vaccinations might be dangerous, so now we've got
outbreaks of measles and other really dangerous diseases putting others (who
actually have good sense) at risk, and costing us millions in otherwise unnecessary
health expenses.
Dimbulb governor
So really, shouldn't you be asking those who've had an OV event how their equipment
fared, instead of asking those who've never needed one whether they have
one? Or limit your ask to those who have the technical expertise to intelligently
answer the question why they made their choice? I don't have one in my current
RV-4, but it's a dirt simple day vfr a/c with mags firing the plugs, and
the most expensive electrical item is the cheap, old comm in the panel. I'm just
too busy and lazy to add OV protection to it. BUT: the RV-7 I'm building will
have an electrically dependent engine with very expensive radios and instruments.
You can bet that I already have OV protection built into both alternators
on it.
Charlie
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 7:37 AM bob noffs <icubob@gmail.com> wrote:
hi charlie,probably viewers of this forum have the highest % of using an ovm. of
10 people i have personally talked to no one has one. many believe that it is
in their alternator which i think is true in some cases but who knows which
ones. yesterday on a forum one person said he was protected by the 60 amp inline
fuse on his alternator output.
i would be surprised if you said everyone you knew had one.
bob noffs
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 9:50 PM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Bob,
Who are you asking? :-)
Charlie
On 3/31/2019 9:33 PM, bob noffs wrote:
> hi bob,
> yea, i know. and all i am doing it for is the batteries. after asking a lot
of questions about this over several months it seems hardly anyone is doing anything
to protect transistors.
> bob noffs
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:21 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
> At 07:27 AM 3/31/2019, you wrote:
>>
>> hi all,
>> i put together an ov'crowbar ' for the output side of my alternator but in
the end i didn't use it. instead i made a warning light from a 2.2v 20ma. led,
3 resistors totaling 1700 ohms and a 13v zenor diode. at 14v it very faintly
glows which is good to see that it is working. at 15.06 v it glows brightly.
not much difference between 10ma. and 20ma. in brightness so i have some leeway
up to 30 volts. this warning is to protect 2 earthx batteries. whether or not
i need it is a question but i gotta do something with that hole in the panel.
>
> EarthX battery BMS will protect the
> batteries. The BMS will not protect
> your avionics. If the BMS DISCONNECTS
> the battery from a runaway alternator,
> the bus voltage climbs at a VERY rapid
> rate.
>
> Unless your ov warning is BRIGHT, SUNLIGHT
> VIEWABLE, and FLASHES to trigger your
> Japanese kick boxer-reflexes . . . chances
> for making lots of transistor-toast is
> significant . . . but the batteries
> will be fine.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
At 07:30 AM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>hi charlie,probably viewers of this forum have the highest % of using an
ovm.
. . . why do you suppose that is?
>of 10 people i have personally talked to no one has one. many believe
>that it is in their alternator which i think is true in some cases but
>who knows which ones.
believing is not knowing, knowing is not
understanding . .
> yesterday on a forum one person said he was protected by the 60
> amp inline fuse on his alternator output.
An alternator is incapable of opening its
own b-lead protection under ANY circumstances.
He is mistaken.
>=C2 i would be surprised if you said everyone you knew had one.
Me too . . . but then making good decisions
founded on lessons-learned and good science
are almost never made by taking a poll.
The reason this forum exists is to gather
and share the-best-we-know-how-to-do
based on understanding. If someone champions
a particular philosophy, he/she should be
capable of teaching it. Failing that,
the philosophy is suspect.
Just for grins, I checked out the latest
edition of 14CFR23 and got a surprise.
The 'bible' of small aircraft design
has be totally updated to a performance
based specification . . . almost zero
'hard' requirements for selection or
operation of components. For example,
here are the electrical system requirements
in their entirety:
=A723.2525 System power generation, storage, and distribution.
The power generation, storage, and distribution for any system must be
designed and installed to=97
(a) Supply the power required for operation of connected loads during all
intended operating conditions;
(b) Ensure no single failure or malfunction of any one power supply,
distribution system, or other utilization system will prevent the system
from
supplying the essential loads required for continued safe flight and
landing;
and
(c) Have enough capacity, if the primary source fails, to supply essential
loads, including non-continuous essential loads for the time needed to
complete the function required for continued safe flight and landing.
None of the above negates or replaces legacy
design goals for minimizing risk but it
does open doors for creative/innovative
designs. The downside is that the applicant
must produce volumes of justification for their
proposed design. The task can become a snarl
of snakes when BOTH contemporary authors and
reviewers of the written word are 'graduates' of
modern school systems.
My last tour of duty with a TC aviation
design and certification effort demonstrated
this condition in spades . . .
For our purposes, 23.2525(B) says it all.
If anyone proposes that timely, automatic
ov protection is not necessary, then
JUSTIFY that assertion with a lucid and
experimentally verifiable narration.
Back when my jobs were really fun, I
had to stand in front of a committee
of my customers and peers to pitch a
proposal. This COULD be a harrowing
experience but it was never a 'bad'
one. You either (a) came out with a
validation of your art and science or
(b) a bad idea was prevented from going
to production. This was a Win-Win
either way.
I captured the latest-n-greatest
14CFR23 for those who are interested . . .
https://tinyurl.com/y4y9qotk
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
hi all,
when i started this thread i didn't really have a question, more like an
observation of how little ov protection is understood and the vast
numbers of opinions of what is going on with an ov condition and what it
takes to stop it. if i would ask one question which i think bob just
answered it is '' can a modern alternator create overvoltage that the
alternators own circuitry cannot prevent, requiring disconnecting the p
lead from the a/c system?''
bob noffs
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 12:21 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 07:30 AM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>
> hi charlie,probably viewers of this forum have the highest % of using an
> ovm.
>
>
> . . . why do you suppose that is?
>
> of 10 people i have personally talked to no one has one. many believe
> that it is in their alternator which i think is true in some cases but
> who knows which ones.
>
>
> believing is not knowing, knowing is not
> understanding . .
>
> yesterday on a forum one person said he was protected by the 60
> amp inline fuse on his alternator output.
>
>
> An alternator is incapable of opening its
> own b-lead protection under ANY circumstances.
> He is mistaken.
>
> =C3=82 i would be surprised if you said everyone you knew had one.
>
>
> Me too . . . but then making good decisions
> founded on lessons-learned and good science
> are almost never made by taking a poll.
>
>
> The reason this forum exists is to gather
> and share the-best-we-know-how-to-do
> based on understanding. If someone champions
> a particular philosophy, he/she should be
> capable of teaching it. Failing that,
> the philosophy is suspect.
>
> Just for grins, I checked out the latest
> edition of 14CFR23 and got a surprise.
> The 'bible' of small aircraft design
> has be totally updated to a performance
> based specification . . . almost zero
> 'hard' requirements for selection or
> operation of components. For example,
> here are the electrical system requirements
> in their entirety:
>
>
> *=C2=A723.2525 System power generation, storage, and distribution. The po
wer
> generation, storage, and distribution for any system must be designed and
> installed to=94 (a) Supply the power required for operation of conn
ected
> loads during all intended operating conditions; (b) Ensure no single
> failure or malfunction of any one power supply, distribution system, or
> other utilization system will prevent the system from supplying the
> essential loads required for continued safe flight and landing; and (c)
> Have enough capacity, if the primary source fails, to supply essential
> loads, including non-continuous essential loads for the time needed to
> complete the function required for continued safe flight and landing. *
> None of the above negates or replaces legacy
> design goals for minimizing risk but it
> does open doors for creative/innovative
> designs. The downside is that the applicant
> must produce volumes of justification for their
> proposed design. The task can become a snarl
> of snakes when BOTH contemporary authors and
> reviewers of the written word are 'graduates' of
> modern school systems.
>
> My last tour of duty with a TC aviation
> design and certification effort demonstrated
> this condition in spades . . .
>
> For our purposes, 23.2525(B) says it all.
> If anyone proposes that timely, automatic
> ov protection is not necessary, then
> JUSTIFY that assertion with a lucid and
> experimentally verifiable narration.
>
> Back when my jobs were really fun, I
> had to stand in front of a committee
> of my customers and peers to pitch a
> proposal. This COULD be a harrowing
> experience but it was never a 'bad'
> one. You either (a) came out with a
> validation of your art and science or
> (b) a bad idea was prevented from going
> to production. This was a Win-Win
> either way.
>
> I captured the latest-n-greatest
> 14CFR23 for those who are interested . . .
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y4y9qotk
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
Then yes, a modern alternator is quite capable of creating an
overvoltage event that its own circuitry cannot prevent. As others have
indicated, even if the alternator has 'built in' OV protection, that
gives rise to the risk that the same fault that caused the OV condition
could also take out the OV protection circuit. The rest of the answer
depends on whether you have an internally or externally regulated
alternator. Bob Nu. justifiably favors external regulation, and with
that, you can simply interrupt the field voltage supply (5A CB). With
internally regulated alts (my personal choice to 'compromise'), you
will need to interrupt the B lead, which requires a heavy duty
relay/contactor. The OV module can control that relay/contactor, again
with a low current CB.
Charlie
On 4/1/2019 2:15 PM, bob noffs wrote:
> hi all,
> when i started this thread i didn't really have a question, more
> like an observation of how little ov protection is understood and
> the vast numbers of opinions of what is going on with an ov condition
> and what it takes to stop it. if i would ask one question which i
> think bob just answered it is '' can a modern alternator create
> overvoltage that the alternators own circuitry cannot prevent,
> requiring disconnecting the p lead from the a/c system?''
> bob noffs
>
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 12:21 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com <mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>>
> wrote:
>
> At 07:30 AM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>> hi charlie,probably viewers of this forum have the highest % of
>> using an ovm.
>
> . . . why do you suppose that is?
>
>> of 10 people i have personally talked to no one has one. many believe
>> that it is in their alternator which i think is true in some
>> cases but
>> who knows which ones.
>
> believing is not knowing, knowing is not
> understanding . .
>
>> yesterday on a forum one person said he was protected by the 60
>> amp inline fuse on his alternator output.
>
> An alternator is incapable of opening its
> own b-lead protection under ANY circumstances.
> He is mistaken.
>
>> i would be surprised if you said everyone you knew had one.
>
> Me too . . . but then making good decisions
> founded on lessons-learned and good science
> are almost never made by taking a poll.
>
>
> The reason this forum exists is to gather
> and share the-best-we-know-how-to-do
> based on understanding. If someone champions
> a particular philosophy, he/she should be
> capable of teaching it. Failing that,
> the philosophy is suspect.
>
> Just for grins, I checked out the latest
> edition of 14CFR23 and got a surprise.
> The 'bible' of small aircraft design
> has be totally updated to a performance
> based specification . . . almost zero
> 'hard' requirements for selection or
> operation of components. For example,
> here are the electrical system requirements
> in their entirety:
>
> */23.2525 System power generation, storage, and distribution.
> The power generation, storage, and distribution for any system must be
> designed and installed to
>
> (a) Supply the power required for operation of connected loads
> during all
> intended operating conditions;
>
> (b) Ensure no single failure or malfunction of any one power supply,
> distribution system, or other utilization system will prevent the
> system from
> supplying the essential loads required for continued safe flight
> and landing;
> and
>
> (c) Have enough capacity, if the primary source fails, to supply
> essential
> loads, including non-continuous essential loads for the time needed to
> complete the function required for continued safe flight and landing.
>
> /* None of the above negates or replaces legacy
> design goals for minimizing risk but it
> does open doors for creative/innovative
> designs. The downside is that the applicant
> must produce volumes of justification for their
> proposed design. The task can become a snarl
> of snakes when BOTH contemporary authors and
> reviewers of the written word are 'graduates' of
> modern school systems.
>
> My last tour of duty with a TC aviation
> design and certification effort demonstrated
> this condition in spades . . .
>
> For our purposes, 23.2525(B) says it all.
> If anyone proposes that timely, automatic
> ov protection is not necessary, then
> JUSTIFY that assertion with a lucid and
> experimentally verifiable narration.
>
> Back when my jobs were really fun, I
> had to stand in front of a committee
> of my customers and peers to pitch a
> proposal. This COULD be a harrowing
> experience but it was never a 'bad'
> one. You either (a) came out with a
> validation of your art and science or
> (b) a bad idea was prevented from going
> to production. This was a Win-Win
> either way.
>
> I captured the latest-n-greatest
> 14CFR23 for those who are interested . . .
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y4y9qotk <https://tinyurl.com/y4y9qotk>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
---
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
In the Klixon catalogue there are part codes for dual coil circuit breakers that
can trip the main (B lead) breaker if the secondary coil senses an overvoltage
(or current, depending on what part you buy).
For the life of me I cant find anyone that stocks such a thing, but it would be
a dead easy way to fit or retrofit OV protection - anyone interested in trying
to get a bulk order together?
On Apr 1, 2019, at 4:51 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
Then yes, a modern alternator is quite capable of creating an overvoltage event
that its own circuitry cannot prevent. As others have indicated, even if the
alternator has 'built in' OV protection, that gives rise to the risk that the
same fault that caused the OV condition could also take out the OV protection
circuit. The rest of the answer depends on whether you have an internally or externally
regulated alternator. Bob Nu. justifiably favors external regulation,
and with that, you can simply interrupt the field voltage supply (5A CB). With
internally regulated alts (my personal choice to 'compromise'), you will need
to interrupt the B lead, which requires a heavy duty relay/contactor. The
OV module can control that relay/contactor, again with a low current CB.
Charlie
On 4/1/2019 2:15 PM, bob noffs wrote:
> hi all,
> when i started this thread i didn't really have a question, more like an observation
of how little ov protection is understood and the vast numbers of
opinions of what is going on with an ov condition and what it takes to stop it.
if i would ask one question which i think bob just answered it is '' can a modern
alternator create overvoltage that the alternators own circuitry cannot
prevent, requiring disconnecting the p lead from the a/c system?''
> bob noffs
>
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 12:21 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
> At 07:30 AM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>> hi charlie,probably viewers of this forum have the highest % of using an ovm.
>
> . . . why do you suppose that is?
>
>> of 10 people i have personally talked to no one has one. many believe
>> that it is in their alternator which i think is true in some cases but
>> who knows which ones.
>
> believing is not knowing, knowing is not
> understanding . .
>
>> yesterday on a forum one person said he was protected by the 60
>> amp inline fuse on his alternator output.
>
> An alternator is incapable of opening its
> own b-lead protection under ANY circumstances.
> He is mistaken.
>
>> i would be surprised if you said everyone you knew had one.
>
> Me too . . . but then making good decisions
> founded on lessons-learned and good science
> are almost never made by taking a poll.
>
>
>
> The reason this forum exists is to gather
> and share the-best-we-know-how-to-do
> based on understanding. If someone champions
> a particular philosophy, he/she should be
> capable of teaching it. Failing that,
> the philosophy is suspect.
>
> Just for grins, I checked out the latest
> edition of 14CFR23 and got a surprise.
> The 'bible' of small aircraft design
> has be totally updated to a performance
> based specification . . . almost zero
> 'hard' requirements for selection or
> operation of components. For example,
> here are the electrical system requirements
> in their entirety:
>
> 23.2525 System power generation, storage, and distribution.
> The power generation, storage, and distribution for any system must be
> designed and installed to
>
> (a) Supply the power required for operation of connected loads during all
> intended operating conditions;
>
> (b) Ensure no single failure or malfunction of any one power supply,
> distribution system, or other utilization system will prevent the system from
> supplying the essential loads required for continued safe flight and landing;
> and
>
> (c) Have enough capacity, if the primary source fails, to supply essential
> loads, including non-continuous essential loads for the time needed to
> complete the function required for continued safe flight and landing.
>
> None of the above negates or replaces legacy
> design goals for minimizing risk but it
> does open doors for creative/innovative
> designs. The downside is that the applicant
> must produce volumes of justification for their
> proposed design. The task can become a snarl
> of snakes when BOTH contemporary authors and
> reviewers of the written word are 'graduates' of
> modern school systems.
>
> My last tour of duty with a TC aviation
> design and certification effort demonstrated
> this condition in spades . . .
>
> For our purposes, 23.2525(B) says it all.
> If anyone proposes that timely, automatic
> ov protection is not necessary, then
> JUSTIFY that assertion with a lucid and
> experimentally verifiable narration.
>
> Back when my jobs were really fun, I
> had to stand in front of a committee
> of my customers and peers to pitch a
> proposal. This COULD be a harrowing
> experience but it was never a 'bad'
> one. You either (a) came out with a
> validation of your art and science or
> (b) a bad idea was prevented from going
> to production. This was a Win-Win
> either way.
>
> I captured the latest-n-greatest
> 14CFR23 for those who are interested . . .
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y4y9qotk
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
At 02:15 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>hi all,
>=C2 when i started this thread i didn't really have a question, more
>like an observation of how little ov protection is understood and
>the vast numbers of opinions of what is going on with an ov condition
>and what it takes to stop it.
>
>if i would ask one question which i think bob just answered it is
>"can a modern alternator create overvoltage that the alternators
>own circuitry cannot prevent, requiring disconnecting the p lead
>from the a/c system?"
Due diligence to the doctrine of FMEA
dictates that we ASSUME that such
a failure can occur. Intuitively,
we can deduce that a piece of electronics
with LOTS of parts and total control
over field voltage could step in
a gopher hole and light off a bad day
in the cockpit.
The condition applies irrespective of whether
the regulator is internal or external
to the alternator. Independent ov protection
is indicated even when the alternator's
advertising literature calls out some
kind of ov protection. This is
necessary because lacking specific
data for how the stock regulator
accomplishes ov protection, we
cannot know that it's independent
of voltage regulation tasks.
When we built ov protection into the
B&C products, ov/lv monitoring
and management was totally independent
of voltage regulation. Since we
designed it, we KNEW that independence
was built in.
To be sure, built in regulators
ARE quite reliable. Failure rates
are low. But if stock internal
regulators had the kind of reliability
demanded by air-transport certification
standards, then there wouldn't be
so many of the things offered as
spares!
https://tinyurl.com/yxtogftx
The best way to bring a runaway
alternator to heal is open the FIELD
supply path. B&C and PlanePower
products modify stock automotive
products to implement EXTERNAL
control of field supply. This
gives the panel mounted alternator
switch absolute control over
alternator output while providing
a place to apply low-current
ov protection as well.
Breaking the b-lead per Z-24
will get 'er done but it's not
preferred. Doing the mod to
incorporate external regulation
and ov management is not difficult.
Bob . . .
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
At 03:55 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>
>In the Klixon catalogue there are part codes for
>dual coil circuit breakers that can trip the
>main (B lead) breaker if the secondary coil
>senses an overvoltage (or current, depending on what part you buy).
>
>For the life of me I can=99t find anyone that
>stocks such a thing, but it would be a dead easy
>way to fit or retrofit OV protection - anyone
>interested in trying to get a bulk order together
I recall seeing these things in some
catalogs wayyyy back when but one look
at the price and the bloom-was-off-the-
rose as they say.
The really cool way to open the b-lead
is with a processor controlled contactor
in series with b-lead paired with a big-momma-FET
in parallel with the b-lead. You drop
the coil current on the contactor some
interval of time before you energize
the FET to put a dead short on the alternator
B-lead. This 'crowbars' the b-lead to
ground and deprives the field supply
of its power source. The 'spike' in the
FET is only slightly greater than the
alternator's output rating and lasts
for micro-seconds.
After the alternator is brought to
heel, current flowing in the shunt
FET is just a couple of amps generated
by residual field flux.
Bob . . .
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
> The really cool way to open the b-lead
> is with a processor controlled contactor
> in series with b-lead paired with a big-momma-FET
> in parallel with the b-lead. You drop
> the coil current on the contactor some
> interval of time before you energize
> the FET to put a dead short on the alternator
> B-lead. This 'crowbars' the b-lead to
> ground and deprives the field supply
> of its power source. The 'spike' in the
> FET is only slightly greater than the
> alternator's output rating and lasts
> for micro-seconds.
>
> After the alternator is brought to
> heel, current flowing in the shunt
> FET is just a couple of amps generated
> by residual field flux.
See https://tinyurl.com/mucjhgs
Bob . . .
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Piper Arrow Pitot Mast |
The proper way is to measure the sustained current draw for that pitot
(at the voltage the alternator will put out, ie 14volts), then size a
wire appropriately taking into consideration the total length of the
run, then select a breaker to protect that size of wire. Anything else
is just guessing.
Bevan
On 3/29/2019 9:36 AM, William Hunter wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> Does anybody happen to have a manual or specifications sheet for a
> Piper Arrow pitot-static mast?
>
> What amp rating circuit breaker should I use to protect this circuit
> (I am using 12 AWG Tefzel wire)?
>
> I have one of these installed on my experimental airplane and I would
> like to have some kind of instruction sheet for each component
> installed and this is one of the last items I do not have an
> instruction sheet on.
>
> Thanks!!!
>
> Bill Hunter
>
> On Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 15:23 Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com <mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>>
> wrote:
>
> The latest/greatest specimin in the
> stable of Battery Tender wall warts
> came in.
>
> I dug around in the shop and came up
> with an SVLA battery out of a portable
> air compressor that showed about 9v
> open circuit. When impressed with 14.2
> volts, charge current stabilized at
> about 0.4 amps and would not go any
> lower. After being on charge for about
> 5 hours, I loaded it with 1A and the
> terminal voltage fell to about 11 volts.
>
> I.e. capacity of zero.
>
> I deduce that no cells are shorted.
> I hooked it to the new Battery
> Tender and invoked the maintenance
> mode.
>
> Here are the pertinent pages from the
> users manual.
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Batteries/Battery_Tender.pdf
>
>
> With a 'scope hooked to the battery we
> see this:
> Emacs!
>
> Yeah, it 'hammers' the battery with 25uS, 16v pulses
> probably 2A or better at an 8.2KHz rate.
>
> I saw no signals that suggested credence for the
> magic 3.26Mhz 'resonant frequency' of lead sulfate . . .
> which I think is bogus. How any physical mass of
> those dimensions might offer resonance at a
> wavelength of 97 meters begs some light-
> footed explanation.
>
> Nonetheless, the product does have a 'hammer'
> mode. The literature suggests that a badly sulfated
> battery may require weeks of rejuvenation . . . this
> test article is in pretty bad shape so we'll
> let 'er cook.
>
> BTW I see that BatteryMinder has come out with
> a 'desulfator' product.
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y4682h48
>
>
> <https://tinyurl.com/y4682h48>
>
> Bob . . .
>
--
Bevan Tomm
Senior Technician
Fraser Valley Alarm Services Inc.
bevan@fvas.bc.ca
office 604-854-2994
Fax 604-852-6408
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| Subject: | Magnetometer wiring |
I will placing a magnetometer, LED Navigation lights, and LED Strobe Lights in
my wings. Is it common and necessary to separate the Magnetometer wire bundle
from all other wiring or can all of these be run together in one bundle?
--------
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488421#488421
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
Bob said "Breaking the b-lead per Z-24 will get 'er done but it's not
preferred."
My question is WHY if opening the b-lead will work, it is "not preferred."
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 2:27 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> The really cool way to open the b-lead
> is with a processor controlled contactor
> in series with b-lead paired with a big-momma-FET
> in parallel with the b-lead. You drop
> the coil current on the contactor some
> interval of time before you energize
> the FET to put a dead short on the alternator
> B-lead. This 'crowbars' the b-lead to
> ground and deprives the field supply
> of its power source. The 'spike' in the
> FET is only slightly greater than the
> alternator's output rating and lasts
> for micro-seconds.
>
> After the alternator is brought to
> heel, current flowing in the shunt
> FET is just a couple of amps generated
> by residual field flux.
>
>
> See https://tinyurl.com/mucjhgs
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
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| Subject: | Re: Possible Brownout Protection Device |
There needs to be a diode in the existing main power bus to prevent the DC-DC converter
current from flowing to the starter.
Otherwise, that DC-DC converter will be unable to maintain 12 volts.
Depending on load, the DC-DC converter with a 5 amp rating might have trouble
maintaining 12 volts, let alone putting out 33 volts.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488423#488423
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
Shorting the B-lead through a FET is also going to pull the main bus to zero, as
well as the battery, no?
On Apr 1, 2019, at 6:22 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
> The really cool way to open the b-lead
> is with a processor controlled contactor
> in series with b-lead paired with a big-momma-FET
> in parallel with the b-lead. You drop
> the coil current on the contactor some
> interval of time before you energize
> the FET to put a dead short on the alternator
> B-lead. This 'crowbars' the b-lead to
> ground and deprives the field supply
> of its power source. The 'spike' in the
> FET is only slightly greater than the
> alternator's output rating and lasts
> for micro-seconds.
>
> After the alternator is brought to
> heel, current flowing in the shunt
> FET is just a couple of amps generated
> by residual field flux.
See https://tinyurl.com/mucjhgs
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
> "My question is WHY if opening the b-lead will work, it is "not preferred."
Because the B-Lead current is 10 times the field current. Heavy current will
require a heavy duty relay or contactor.
Field current can be interrupted with a small relay or circuit breaker along with
solid state components
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488424#488424
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| Subject: | Re: Magnetometer wiring |
Brooks,
I don't know the specifics of what you are doing but here are a couple of
thoughts which might guide you:
- Follow the manufacturers' recommendations for wiring.
- Magnetometers need to be installed away from anything which has a
magnetic field (steel and iron and magnets in things like servo motors).
Their wiring is not particularly sensitive.
- The wiring for strobes, even LED strobes, may require shielding.
Follow the manufacturers' recommendations. (Did I say that already? =F0
=9F=98=8E)
In my Bede BD-4C, I put the magnetometer in the fuselage, far away from
everything. The strobes are in the wingtips. There are no lights near the
magnetometer.
-- Art Z.
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 6:22 PM bcone1381 <bcone1964@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I will placing a magnetometer, LED Navigation lights, and LED Strobe
> Lights in my wings. Is it common and necessary to separate the Magnetomet
er
> wire bundle from all other wiring or can all of these be run together in
> one bundle?
>
> --------
> Brooks Cone
> Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"Love wins. Love always wins." Morrie Schwartz*
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
Thanks
Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve.
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019, 15:51 user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > "My question is WHY if opening the b-lead will work, it is "not
> preferred."
> Because the B-Lead current is 10 times the field current. Heavy current
> will require a heavy duty relay or contactor.
> Field current can be interrupted with a small relay or circuit breaker
> along with solid state components
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488424#488424
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Piper Arrow Pitot Mast |
At 05:32 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>The proper way is to measure the sustained
>current draw for that pitot (at the voltage the
>alternator will put out, ie 14volts), then size
>a wire appropriately taking into consideration
>the total length of the run, then select a
>breaker to protect that size of wire.=C2 Anything else is just guessing.
Pitot tube heaters are a special breed
of cat. I published a performance narrative
on a popular pitot tube about 13 years
ago . . .
https://tinyurl.com/y78oc7z3
In this document I describe the prolonged
and pronounced inrush currents impressed
on the system during during warm up.
A 150W (typical) tube will draw right
at 10A on a 14V airplane. Warmup
from cold will start at about 2x
that value and take tens of seconds.
Extended warm-up loading may well nuisance
trip a breaker rated for wire carrying
running currents.
Just for grins, I suggest your
12AWG wire protected with a 20A
breaker would be judiciously
oversized.
Bob . . .
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
At 06:17 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>Bob said "Breaking the b-lead per Z-24=C2 will get
>'er done but it's not=C2 preferred."
>My question is WHY if opening the b-lead will work, it is "not preferred."
Z-24 was created to accommodate builders
wanting to install Van's favorite, internally
regulated alternator. Some time after the
drawing was published, an RV builder
reported having killed his alternator
by cycling the on/off switch with the engine
running.
RPM, loads, and numbers of cycles were
not known. But it was predictable that
doing a b-lead disconnect under load
produces a spectacular load-dump. A
transient that trashed the built-in
regulator.
Some time later I came to understand
that Van was selling remaned alternators
from sources unknown. Later still
I visited Motor Car Parts of America
facilities in Tijuana, Mexico followed
by a meeting with their chief engineer
in San Diego. I witnessed deliberate
full-load b-lead disconnects that
produced flashes of light that totally
swamped my video camera. Suffice it
to say that event after 6 or 7 such events
in a row, the regulators were undamaged.
This led me to suppose that the
load-dump damage to the RV builder's
alternator was not something that
should be expected. Nonetheless,
Z-24 got 'black listed'.
In fact, Z-24 WILL perform as advertised
with minimal or zero risk to an
alternator assembled with the same
skills demonstrated by MCPA (See chapter
on alternators in the 'Connection).
There's a down-side to
Z-24 (interim). When a runaway
alternator b-lead is disconnected from
the airplane, it STILL drives its
own field to destruction. But
you would have to tear it down
just to replace the regulator . . .
the smoked field winding is a
feature offered at no extra charge.
Some time later, I conceived the crowbar
disconnect scheme that would not only
unhook the runaway alternator, it would
bring it to heel and protect the
field windings.
BOTH b-lead disconnect techniques
are rather in-elegant compared to
legacy field supply disconnect methods.
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
At 06:44 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>
>Shorting the B-lead through a FET is also going to pull the main bus
>to zero, as well as the battery, no?
No . . . you FIRST disconnect it
through the contactor followed by
crowbar to ground LATER.
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
Thanks.
Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve.
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019, 16:43 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 06:17 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>
> Bob said "Breaking the b-lead per Z-24=C3=82 will get 'er done but it's n
ot=C3=82
> preferred."
> My question is WHY if opening the b-lead will work, it is "not preferred.
"
>
>
> Z-24 was created to accommodate builders
> wanting to install Van's favorite, internally
> regulated alternator. Some time after the
> drawing was published, an RV builder
> reported having killed his alternator
> by cycling the on/off switch with the engine
> running.
>
> RPM, loads, and numbers of cycles were
> not known. But it was predictable that
> doing a b-lead disconnect under load
> produces a spectacular load-dump. A
> transient that trashed the built-in
> regulator.
>
> Some time later I came to understand
> that Van was selling remaned alternators
> from sources unknown. Later still
> I visited Motor Car Parts of America
> facilities in Tijuana, Mexico followed
> by a meeting with their chief engineer
> in San Diego. I witnessed deliberate
> full-load b-lead disconnects that
> produced flashes of light that totally
> swamped my video camera. Suffice it
> to say that event after 6 or 7 such events
> in a row, the regulators were undamaged.
>
> This led me to suppose that the
> load-dump damage to the RV builder's
> alternator was not something that
> should be expected. Nonetheless,
> Z-24 got 'black listed'.
>
> In fact, Z-24 WILL perform as advertised
> with minimal or zero risk to an
> alternator assembled with the same
> skills demonstrated by MCPA (See chapter
> on alternators in the 'Connection).
>
> There's a down-side to
> Z-24 (interim). When a runaway
> alternator b-lead is disconnected from
> the airplane, it STILL drives its
> own field to destruction. But
> you would have to tear it down
> just to replace the regulator . . .
> the smoked field winding is a
> feature offered at no extra charge.
>
> Some time later, I conceived the crowbar
> disconnect scheme that would not only
> unhook the runaway alternator, it would
> bring it to heel and protect the
> field windings.
>
> BOTH b-lead disconnect techniques
> are rather in-elegant compared to
> legacy field supply disconnect methods.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
In that case, why not put something across the contactor to sense the developing
voltage difference when the contactor opens to trigger the FET (or how about
an SCR?)
You cold develop the same circuit to wire across the B lead CB to dump the field
coil current when the CB is manually pulled too, relieving any effects of a
load dump.
On Apr 1, 2019, at 8:38 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
At 06:44 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>
> Shorting the B-lead through a FET is also going to pull the main bus to zero,
as well as the battery, no?
No . . . you FIRST disconnect it
through the contactor followed by
crowbar to ground LATER.
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
At 08:21 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>
>In that case, why not put something across the contactor to sense
>the developing voltage difference when the contactor opens to trigger the FET
The proposed Z-24 ov control module
does monitor first opening of the
contactor to deduce when the FET
gets energized.
> (or how about an SCR?)
FET has lower on-resistance which takes
B-lead to level that won't excite the
field. A turned-on SCR has about 1.5
volts forward drop which WOULD seriously
excite the field . . . not good.
This would produce considerable heat
in the SCR. A power FET would suffer
no such abuse.
>You cold develop the same circuit to wire across the B
>lead CB to dump the field coil current when the CB is
>manually pulled too, relieving any effects of a load dump.
B-lead breakers should not be manually
pulled except for trouble shooting
on the ground and certainly not
while the alternator is under load.
In fact, there should not even BE a b-lead
breaker . . . b-lead protection has
been handled by current limiters under
the cowl for decades in TC aircraft.
Pulling the b-lead breaker on a loaded
alternator, whether internally or
externally regulated, is almost certain
to start a fire in the breaker . . . it
gets hot, smokes and smells really bad.
Bob . . .
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
Unfortunately for me I have a TC aircraft (it has at least three type certificates
from EASA, the FAA and Transport Canada) with a Bosch 28V automotive alternator
with built-in regulation. There is _no_ off-board OV regulation.
The Approved Flight Manual (I stress _approved_!) procedure for an excessive charging"
condition is Alternator Circuit Breaker - PULL
So, Im looking for a mitigation strategy for me (and for my ab initial students!)
who will be flying the aircraft. :-)
On Apr 1, 2019, at 9:32 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
Pulling the b-lead breaker on a loaded
alternator, whether internally or
externally regulated, is almost certain
to start a fire in the breaker . . . it
gets hot, smokes and smells really bad.
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: ov warning light |
On 4/1/2019 7:37 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 06:17 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>> Bob said "Breaking the b-lead per Z-24 will get 'er done but it's
>> not preferred."
>> My question is WHY if opening the b-lead will work, it is "not
>> preferred."
>
> Z-24 was created to accommodate builders
> wanting to install Van's favorite, internally
> regulated alternator. Some time after the
> drawing was published, an RV builder
> reported having killed his alternator
> by cycling the on/off switch with the engine
> running.
>
> RPM, loads, and numbers of cycles were
> not known. But it was predictable that
> doing a b-lead disconnect under load
> produces a spectacular load-dump. A
> transient that trashed the built-in
> regulator.
>
> Some time later I came to understand
> that Van was selling remaned alternators
> from sources unknown. Later still
> I visited Motor Car Parts of America
> facilities in Tijuana, Mexico followed
> by a meeting with their chief engineer
> in San Diego. I witnessed deliberate
> full-load b-lead disconnects that
> produced flashes of light that totally
> swamped my video camera. Suffice it
> to say that event after 6 or 7 such events
> in a row, the regulators were undamaged.
>
> This led me to suppose that the
> load-dump damage to the RV builder's
> alternator was not something that
> should be expected. Nonetheless,
> Z-24 got 'black listed'.
>
> In fact, Z-24 WILL perform as advertised
> with minimal or zero risk to an
> alternator assembled with the same
> skills demonstrated by MCPA (See chapter
> on alternators in the 'Connection).
>
> There's a down-side to
> Z-24 (interim). When a runaway
> alternator b-lead is disconnected from
> the airplane, it STILL drives its
> own field to destruction. But
> you would have to tear it down
> just to replace the regulator . . .
> the smoked field winding is a
> feature offered at no extra charge.
>
> Some time later, I conceived the crowbar
> disconnect scheme that would not only
> unhook the runaway alternator, it would
> bring it to heel and protect the
> field windings.
>
> BOTH b-lead disconnect techniques
> are rather in-elegant compared to
> legacy field supply disconnect methods.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
That's the logic I used when accepting my 'compromise'. I figure that if
my IR alternator goes OV and triggers the crowbar, and then the rest of
the alt goes to toast, I don't care, because I'll be buying an entire
new $70 alternator, anyway. And I'll avoid the old Van's load dump issue
by following the advice of the He Haw Doctor: If it hurts when you do
that, DON'T DO THAT.
And the $70 alternator cost explains my $600 inelegant compromise. :-)
Charlie
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| Subject: | Re: Piper Arrow Pitot Mast |
Bob,
If I measure the resistance of my pitot heater elements at room temperature
and calculate the current thru each of these two resistances in parallel
when driven by a 14V supply, how far off am I for deducing peak inrush
current in each circuit and thus wire size and breaker rating?
Pat
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 6:24 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 05:32 PM 4/1/2019, you wrote:
>
> The proper way is to measure the sustained current draw for that pitot (a
t
> the voltage the alternator will put out, ie 14volts), then size a wire
> appropriately taking into consideration the total length of the run, then
> select a breaker to protect that size of wire.=C3=82 Anything else is ju
st
> guessing.
>
>
> Pitot tube heaters are a special breed
> of cat. I published a performance narrative
> on a popular pitot tube about 13 years
> ago . . .
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y78oc7z3
>
> In this document I describe the prolonged
> and pronounced inrush currents impressed
> on the system during during warm up.
>
> A 150W (typical) tube will draw right
> at 10A on a 14V airplane. Warmup
> from cold will start at about 2x
> that value and take tens of seconds.
> Extended warm-up loading may well nuisance
> trip a breaker rated for wire carrying
> running currents.
>
> Just for grins, I suggest your
> 12AWG wire protected with a 20A
> breaker would be judiciously
> oversized.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 32
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a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "aeroelectric-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the AeroElectric-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all AeroElectric-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the AeroElectric-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* AeroElectric-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?AeroElectric
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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| Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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