Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:17 AM - Re: Limiting Current to a Battery (Wayne Blackler)
2. 08:44 AM - Re: Limiting Current to a Battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 09:15 AM - Re: Limiting Current to a Battery (Bob Verwey)
4. 09:40 AM - Re: Limiting Current to a Battery (Ernest Christley)
5. 10:54 AM - Re: Limiting Current to a Battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 12:22 PM - Re: Limiting Current to a Battery (Charlie England)
7. 12:24 PM - Re: Limiting Current to a Battery (Charlie England)
8. 05:14 PM - Re: Limiting Current to a Battery (user9253)
9. 05:53 PM - Re: Limiting Current to a Battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 07:25 PM - Re: Limiting Current to a Battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 07:37 PM - Re: King Molex connectors (Michael Wynn)
12. 10:09 PM - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8=B4=D8=B1=D9=83=D8=A9?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8=D9=86=D8=B8=D9=8A=D9=81? (nanafananas)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Limiting Current to a Battery |
Some current DO-160 qualified Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries often do not limit
charge current. A distinct difference in next-gen similarly qualified LFP batteries
is to enable the end-user to limit charge current by programming the
battery management system. There are clearly implications. Particularly for all
electric aircraft. A large 28VDC 40A-hr lfp battery might be good for 700A
continuous discharge and could draw 600A if fully discharged on a charge cycle.
If charged with a 400A starter-generator, this could put the generation system
into overload, and the limit is reached in seconds. Even a 50% discharged lfp
battery of this size draws huge charge currents for not insignificant durations.
It would be interesting to see the effect of critical utilisation equipment
hung off a bus with this issue. Thoughts?
> On 8 Jul 2019, at 02:41, Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 7, 2019, at 10:23 AM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...But I think it points out a hole in my electrical understanding.
>
> . I'm imagining some type of circuit that takes in 12-14 volts, and puts out
almost the same, but only at some specified number of amps.
>
>
> Remember a battery is a two terminal device. It functions like you pick the voltage
across the terminals, Ill pick the current, or, equivalently you pick the
current, Ill pick the voltage. You cant pick both the voltage across the terminals
and the current through the battery, independently.
>
> You could put some kind of negative temperature coefficient thermistor in series
with the battery, and shunt that with a fat diode so as not to limit the current
withdrawable from the battery?
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Limiting Current to a Battery |
At 06:16 AM 7/8/2019, you wrote:
><wayne_blackler@yahoo.com.au>
>
>Some current DO-160 qualified Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries often
>do not limit charge current. A distinct difference in next-gen
>similarly qualified LFP batteries is to enable the end-user to limit
>charge current by programming the battery management system. There
>are clearly implications. Particularly for all electric aircraft. A
>large 28VDC 40A-hr lfp battery might be good for 700A continuous
>discharge and could draw 600A if fully discharged on a charge cycle.
>If charged with a 400A starter-generator, this could put the
>generation system into overload, and the limit is reached in
>seconds. Even a 50% discharged lfp battery of this size draws huge
>charge currents for not insignificant durations. It would be
>interesting to see the effect of critical utilisation equipment hung
>off a bus with this issue. Thoughts?
What goes around . . . comes around . . .
Had some similar thoughts back in the hey-day
of wet ni-cads finding their way onto airplanes.
A number of airplanes suffered battery fires
due to high rate energy replenishment after engine
start. The same conditions contributed to
root cause. Smaller batteries with lower
thermal mass. Lower internal resistance
translating into a battery's willingness to accept
replenishment.
The 'fix' was to add crew monitored
battery temperature warning systems to
the airplane. Here's an example . . .
Emacs!
The idea was that when the yellow light
came on, the crew would disconnect the
battery from the bus until the temperature
fell to happier territory.
Back in those days, I was participating in
a series of design programs for alternator
and/or generator controllers. In numerous
design reviews I proposed that our product
included battery temperature monitoring
that would effect automatic bus voltage
reduction until such time that the battery
would again accept replenishment at the
high rate. Some of the twin turbine
a/c had DUAL 600A generators!
The idea was pushed aside as in the 'too
hard' pile. We'd have to re-qualify
a fleet wide array of controllers. Adding
the 'band-aid' to aircraft carrying ni-cads
was a much simpler solution.
In years since, improvements in lead-acid
technologies lowered cell impedances
to the point that RG batteries were
subject to discharge/recharge overheat
in a/c with large generators. So
lead-acid batteries began to sprout
connectors to carry temperature sensor
data to . . . you guessed it . . .
the cockpit mounted warning system.
Emacs!
So here we are again. Itty bitty LiPO4
cells quite capable of producing engine
cranking power are similarly at-risk
for reduced service life from a pair
of stresses. (1) high temperature
induced by extended current flows
with I(squared)R losses dumped into
very low thermal mass and (2) over
discharge below some voltage threshold
that trashes the chemistry.
Folks like Earth-X and TrueBlue have
built protections into their battery.
Why? Because the primary instigators
of risk to the battery (charging
system and battery contactor) have
no idea as to the battery's condition
hence not configured to do the
really simple job of mitigating
battery abuse.
In the OBAM aviation world, we have
opportunity to take the next step
in power system management and control.
It would be no big deal to build
alternator controllers that would
take battery chemistry and size
into account . . . totally eliminating
the need for temperature monitoring.
Similarly, a battery contactor controller
could be crafted to simply unhook the
battery when the voltage dropped below
some established limit.
Perhaps its time that the DC power system
be treated as an orchestra of components
that play well TOGETHER. Right now, the
players are marching to their own tunes
with nary a care for each other's limits
and needs.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Limiting Current to a Battery |
Mr N...as always I am in awe of your immense repository of knowledge...not
that others on the group can't challenge you...but I am grateful that you
make the time to dispense same on this forum. Often it is a topic that does
not really interest me. Yet I find myself drawn inextricably away from
the DELETE button!
On Mon, 08 Jul 2019, 5:50 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 06:16 AM 7/8/2019, you wrote:
>
> wayne_blackler@yahoo.com.au>
>
> Some current DO-160 qualified Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries often do
> not limit charge current. A distinct difference in next-gen similarly
> qualified LFP batteries is to enable the end-user to limit charge current
> by programming the battery management system. There are clearly
> implications. Particularly for all electric aircraft. A large 28VDC 40A-hr
> lfp battery might be good for 700A continuous discharge and could draw 600A
> if fully discharged on a charge cycle. If charged with a 400A
> starter-generator, this could put the generation system into overload, and
> the limit is reached in seconds. Even a 50% discharged lfp battery of this
> size draws huge charge currents for not insignificant durations. It would
> be interesting to see the effect of critical utilisation equipment hung off
> a bus with this issue. Thoughts?
>
>
> What goes around . . . comes around . . .
>
> Had some similar thoughts back in the hey-day
> of wet ni-cads finding their way onto airplanes.
> A number of airplanes suffered battery fires
> due to high rate energy replenishment after engine
> start. The same conditions contributed to
> root cause. Smaller batteries with lower
> thermal mass. Lower internal resistance
> translating into a battery's willingness to accept
> replenishment.
>
> The 'fix' was to add crew monitored
> battery temperature warning systems to
> the airplane. Here's an example . . .
>
> [image: Emacs!]
>
> The idea was that when the yellow light
> came on, the crew would disconnect the
> battery from the bus until the temperature
> fell to happier territory.
>
> Back in those days, I was participating in
> a series of design programs for alternator
> and/or generator controllers. In numerous
> design reviews I proposed that our product
> included battery temperature monitoring
> that would effect automatic bus voltage
> reduction until such time that the battery
> would again accept replenishment at the
> high rate. Some of the twin turbine
> a/c had DUAL 600A generators!
>
> The idea was pushed aside as in the 'too
> hard' pile. We'd have to re-qualify
> a fleet wide array of controllers. Adding
> the 'band-aid' to aircraft carrying ni-cads
> was a much simpler solution.
>
> In years since, improvements in lead-acid
> technologies lowered cell impedances
> to the point that RG batteries were
> subject to discharge/recharge overheat
> in a/c with large generators. So
> lead-acid batteries began to sprout
> connectors to carry temperature sensor
> data to . . . you guessed it . . .
> the cockpit mounted warning system.
>
> [image: Emacs!]
>
> So here we are again. Itty bitty LiPO4
> cells quite capable of producing engine
> cranking power are similarly at-risk
> for reduced service life from a pair
> of stresses. (1) high temperature
> induced by extended current flows
> with I(squared)R losses dumped into
> very low thermal mass and (2) over
> discharge below some voltage threshold
> that trashes the chemistry.
>
> Folks like Earth-X and TrueBlue have
> built protections into their battery.
> Why? Because the primary instigators
> of risk to the battery (charging
> system and battery contactor) have
> no idea as to the battery's condition
> hence not configured to do the
> really simple job of mitigating
> battery abuse.
>
> In the OBAM aviation world, we have
> opportunity to take the next step
> in power system management and control.
> It would be no big deal to build
> alternator controllers that would
> take battery chemistry and size
> into account . . . totally eliminating
> the need for temperature monitoring.
>
> Similarly, a battery contactor controller
> could be crafted to simply unhook the
> battery when the voltage dropped below
> some established limit.
>
> Perhaps its time that the DC power system
> be treated as an orchestra of components
> that play well TOGETHER. Right now, the
> players are marching to their own tunes
> with nary a care for each other's limits
> and needs.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Limiting Current to a Battery |
Look for a "poly fuse" in the aviation section of an auto parts store. These will
limit current to the rated value
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
On Sun, Jul 7, 2019 at 10:01 AM, Jared Yates<email@jaredyates.com> wrote: I
have a question that's only somewhat applicable to E/AB aviation, apologies in
advance. But I think it points out a hole in my electrical understanding.
The characteristics of the lithium iron battery I'm running allow it to draw lots
of current really fast after the engine starts. If it has been a little while
since the last flight, the alternator is at max output for several minutes.
The alternator puts out all it can give, and it's less than the battery wants
to take.
Stepping out of the hangar, my tow vehicle circuitry includes a wire in the 7-pin
connector that provides alternator voltage to the trailer, intending to charge
a small battery for a breakaway emergency brake. If I install a larger battery
for other purposes, perhaps one like what is in the airplane, and connect
it to that line coming from the truck, it seems like it would almost certainly
open the fuse on that circuit during that initial high-draw stage.
These two scenarios had me thinking, what methods would one have to limit a hungry
battery's draw? I'm imagining some type of circuit that takes in 12-14 volts,
and puts out almost the same, but only at some specified number of amps. Almost
like a DC-powered battery charging circuit, rather than just putting the
battery on the bus directly.
Surely this has been solved in some off-the-shelf widget, but I haven't figured
out the words to google yet.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Limiting Current to a Battery |
At 11:14 AM 7/8/2019, you wrote:
>Mr N...as always I am in awe of your immense repository of
>knowledge...not that others on the group can't challenge you...but I
>am grateful that you make the time to dispense same on this forum.
>Often it is a topic that does not really interest me. Yet I find
>myself drawn inextricably away from the DELETE button!
Thank you for those kind words.
I am grateful to my teachers
and constellation of employers who
offered a great spectrum of
opportunities.
Knowledge is like cash . . . the
value of which grows in proportion
to how much it CIRCULATES. We
all have opportunity to stir the
great stew pot of knowledge. I
have been gifted with a really
big pot and spoon to go with it.
Your participation here goes toward
refining recipes for success based
on knowledge and science. Thank
you for being here!
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Limiting Current to a Battery |
=81=A3Sent from BlueMail =8B
On Jul 8, 2019, 10:50 AM, at 10:50
AM, "Robert L=2E Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls=2Ebob@aeroelectric=2Ecom> wrote:
>At 06:16 AM 7/8/2019, you wrote:
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted b
y: Wayne Blackler
>><wayne_blackler@yahoo=2Ecom=2Eau>
>>
>>Some current DO
-160 qualified Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries often
>>do not limit charg
e current=2E A distinct difference in next-gen
>>similarly qualified LFP b
atteries is to enable the end-user to limit
>>charge current by programmin
g the battery management system=2E There
>>are clearly implications=2E Par
ticularly for all electric aircraft=2E A
>>large 28VDC 40A-hr lfp battery
might be good for 700A continuous
>>discharge and could draw 600A if full
y discharged on a charge cycle=2E
>>If charged with a 400A starter-generat
or, this could put the
>>generation system into overload, and the limit is
reached in
>>seconds=2E Even a 50% discharged lfp battery of this size dr
aws huge
>>charge currents for not insignificant durations=2E It would be
>>interesting to see the effect of critical utilisation equipment hung
>>
off a bus with this issue=2E Thoughts?
>
> What goes around =2E =2E =2E c
omes around =2E =2E =2E
>
> Had some similar thoughts back in the hey-day
> of wet ni-cads finding their way onto airplanes=2E
> A number of air
planes suffered battery fires
> due to high rate energy replenishment aft
er engine
> start=2E The same conditions contributed to
> root cause=2E
Smaller batteries with lower
> thermal mass=2E Lower internal resistance
> translating into a battery's willingness to accept
> replenishment
=2E
>
> The 'fix' was to add crew monitored
> battery temperature warni
ng systems to
> the airplane=2E Here's an example =2E =2E =2E
>
>Emacs!
>
>
> The idea was that when the yellow light
> came on, the crew would
disconnect the
> battery from the bus until the temperature
> fell to h
appier territory=2E
>
> Back in those days, I was participating in
> a
series of design programs for alternator
> and/or generator controllers
=2E In numerous
> design reviews I proposed that our product
> included
battery temperature monitoring
> that would effect automatic bus voltage
> reduction until such time that the battery
> would again accept repl
enishment at the
> high rate=2E Some of the twin turbine
> a/c had DUAL
600A generators!
>
> The idea was pushed aside as in the 'too
> hard'
pile=2E We'd have to re-qualify
> a fleet wide array of controllers=2E Ad
ding
> the 'band-aid' to aircraft carrying ni-cads
> was a much simpler
solution=2E
>
> In years since, improvements in lead-acid
> technologi
es lowered cell impedances
> to the point that RG batteries were
> subj
ect to discharge/recharge overheat
> in a/c with large generators=2E So
>
lead-acid batteries began to sprout
> connectors to carry temperature
sensor
> data to =2E =2E =2E you guessed it =2E =2E =2E
> the cockpit m
ounted warning system=2E
>
>Emacs!
>
>
> So here we are again=2E Itty bit
ty LiPO4
> cells quite capable of producing engine
> cranking power are
similarly at-risk
> for reduced service life from a pair
> of stresses
=2E (1) high temperature
> induced by extended current flows
> with I(s
quared)R losses dumped into
> very low thermal mass and (2) over
> disc
harge below some voltage threshold
> that trashes the chemistry=2E
>
>
Folks like Earth-X and TrueBlue have
> built protections into their batte
ry=2E
> Why? Because the primary instigators
> of risk to the battery (
charging
> system and battery contactor) have
> no idea as to the batte
ry's condition
> hence not configured to do the
> really simple job of
mitigating
> battery abuse=2E
>
> In the OBAM aviation world, we have
>
opportunity to take the next step
> in power system management and con
trol=2E
> It would be no big deal to build
> alternator controllers tha
t would
> take battery chemistry and size
> into account =2E =2E =2E to
tally eliminating
> the need for temperature monitoring=2E
>
> Similarl
y, a battery contactor controller
> could be crafted to simply unhook the
> battery when the voltage dropped below
> some established limit=2E
>
> Perhaps its time that the DC power system
> be treated as an orchest
ra of components
> that play well TOGETHER=2E Right now, the
> players
are marching to their own tunes
> with nary a care for each other's limit
s
> and needs=2E
>
>
> Bob =2E =2E =2E
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Limiting Current to a Battery |
Don't polyfuses simply open/close? With no regulation, wouldn't you just ge
t a series of pulses?
=81=A3Sent from BlueMail =8B
On Jul 8, 201
9, 11:44 AM, at 11:44 AM, Ernest Christley <echristley@att=2Enet> wrote:
>L
ook for a "poly fuse" in the aviation section of an auto parts store=2E
>Th
ese will limit current to the rated value
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail on Androi
d
>
>On Sun, Jul 7, 2019 at 10:01 AM, Jared Yates<email@jaredyates=2Ecom>
>wrote: I have a question that's only somewhat applicable to E/AB
>aviat
ion, apologies in advance=2E But I think it points out a hole in my
>electr
ical understanding=2E
>The characteristics of the lithium iron battery I'm
running allow it to
>draw lots of current really fast after the engine star
ts=2E If it has
>been a little while since the last flight, the alternator
is at max
>output for several minutes=2E The alternator puts out all it can
give,
>and it's less than the battery wants to take=2E
>Stepping out of th
e hangar, my tow vehicle circuitry includes a wire in
>the 7-pin connector
that provides alternator voltage to the trailer,
>intending to charge a sma
ll battery for a breakaway emergency brake=2E If
>I install a larger batter
y for other purposes, perhaps one like what is
>in the airplane, and connec
t it to that line coming from the truck, it
>seems like it would almost cer
tainly open the fuse on that circuit
>during that initial high-draw stage
=2E
>These two scenarios had me thinking, what methods would one have to
>l
imit a hungry battery's draw? I'm imagining some type of circuit that
>take
s in 12-14 volts, and puts out almost the same, but only at some
>specified
number of amps=2E Almost like a DC-powered battery charging
>circuit, rath
er than just putting the battery on the bus directly=2E
>Surely this has be
en solved in some off-the-shelf widget, but I haven't
>figured out the word
s to google yet=2E
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Limiting Current to a Battery |
The battery manufacturer, EarthX, wrote:
> Based on extensive testing, the maximum charge rating will never be exceeded
using this simple and reliable diode isolation design.
https://earthxbatteries.com/dual-bus-lithium-battery-design
So why not try using diodes first before trying more complicated methods to reduce
the voltage and current. An assortment of diodes with various forward voltage
drops could be tried. Yes, it is trial and error. But so is finding the
ideal voltage output of a DC-DC converter.
By the way, it is physically impossible to reduce the battery charging current
without lowering the charging voltage that is connected to the battery.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490144#490144
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Limiting Current to a Battery |
At 11:36 AM 7/8/2019, you wrote:
>Look for a "poly fuse" in the aviation section of an auto parts
>store. These will limit current to the rated value
No, these are intended to perform the
same function as breakers and fuses.
Placed in series with the power path
to an electrical load, they present
a low resistance at or below a certain
temperature. Should an overload occur,
they warm past the 'trip point' where
the resistance rises rapidly thus
mitigating the fault current.
See:
https://tinyurl.com/7vt49mw
https://tinyurl.com/y2uh3byy
The TC aircraft world flirted with these
critters on several occasions where
I participated . . . and there were
no doubt others.
There are several power distribution
products offered to the OBAM aviation
community that feature Polyfuses.
One of the earliest examples is the
EXPBUS
Emacs!
Greg Richter was a proponent of Polyfuses
in his designs. One proposal for light
aircraft power distribution took this
form:
Emacs!
(We had quite a discussion about both products
which have been archived on AeroElectric.com
if anyone is interested. Search on expbus
or polyfuse.
But suffice it to say that Polyfuses are not
well suited for protection of power distribution
feeders in aircraft. They are well suited to
protection of circuitry WITHIN an electro-whizzy . . .
indeed, they're sold by the millions for that
purpose. They've alos found utility on some
automotive applications . . . like providing
electrical limit stops for power windows.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Limiting Current to a Battery |
At 02:23 PM 7/8/2019, you wrote:
>Don't polyfuses simply open/close? With no regulation, wouldn't you
>just get a series of pulses?
close . . . the polyfuse maintains a low
resistance state BELOW some trip point
whereupon it reverts to a high resistance
state. Current flow never goes to zero and
the 'fuse' is held in the high-resistance
condition at some current value well below
hazardous.
To 'reset' a polyfuse, you have to remove
the current and allow the device to cool
whereupon the magic molecules re-arrange
to form the low-resistance matrix.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: King Molex connectors |
VERY helpful
Thank you.
Michael Wynn
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Birdsall <cbirdsall6@cox.net>
Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2019 6:52 pm
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: King Molex connectors
Michael,You can purchase the pins here:=C2-http://lane-pilot.com/25-pcs-
BendixKing-tray-contacts-KX155KMA24KX196KN53etc_p_123.html as well as every
thing else I mention here ...The extractor is a Molex PN HT-1884. You can m
ake your own - I've done so using a cheap stainless 6" rule on the dollar s
helf at the hardware store.=C2- I ground down one end so that it looked s
imilar to the tool in the picture and then carefully sized it to fit into t
he tiny little slot above/below the pins in the connector. Take a look at t
he KX 155 Install manual, Page 2-6 - you'll see a picture of the removal to
ol and the pins.=C2- The pins have a narrow tang that locks into place by
dropping into a stepped slot=C2- when it's inserted into the rear of the
connector.=C2- The removal tool simply pushes the tang up so that it dis
engages from the slot. To use it, insert it into the slot above or below th
e pin (depending on which row you're after) from the front of the connector
, give it a little push to disengage the tang and either push the pin out f
rom the front with a blunt tool or pull it out the back using the attached
wire. Use finesse, not brute force. It won't come out if the tang isn't dis
engaged.=C2-RF connections:=C2- Solder-in style is TED PN 9-30-10 (simi
lar to the original).=C2- It takes a little practice to solder these well
.OR you can go with a Delkin=C2- DBA 600 and not have to solder the whip
at all.=C2- Make your antenna lead long enough to reach the back of the t
ray and crimp on a BNC connector.=C2-One caution: One row of pins is numb
ered, the other is alphabetical. The alphabetical row is missing the G, I,
O,=C2- and Q. Forget that and you'll get the pins in the wrong place. Bee
n there, done that.KX 155 install manual is here:=C2-http://aeroelectric.
com/Installation_Data/Bendix-King/KX155_IM.pdf
Chuck
On July 5, 2019 at 3:07 PM Michael Wynn <mlwynn@aol.com> wrote:
Hi All,
I am restoring and re-wiring a 1977 Pitts.=C2- The radios are a King KY97
a and a King 76c.=C2- Both have wiring going into a rack and some version
of molex pins in a plastic holder at the rear.=C2- When wiring my RV8, I
was using Garmin radios that all use more standard Sub-d pins and sockets.
I want to replace some wires and add a couple of circuits.=C2- I am reall
y unclear about how to remove and replace these pins and where I buy replac
ement pins.=C2-=C2-
I also want to put new RG400 for the wires to the antennae.=C2- There is
a right angle connector, but I am really unsure if I can remove the current
antenna wiring and replace them.=C2- Anyone with experience dealing with
these connectors?
Regards,
Michael WynnPitts S1-SRV 8Livermore, CA
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