---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/14/19: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:13 AM - Re: FYI: Touch Screens...Navy thinks they are terrible. (Bill Boyd) 2. 06:00 AM - Re: Dual Alternator "Failure" (user9253) 3. 07:02 AM - Re: FYI: Touch Screens...Navy thinks they are terrible. (Ernest Christley) 4. 08:59 AM - BNC connectors =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= Tool recommendation/Installation question (Argonaut36) 5. 09:12 AM - Re: Dual Alternator "Failure" - SOLVED (Art Zemon) 6. 09:15 AM - Re: Dual Alternator "Failure" (argoldman@aol.com) 7. 10:26 AM - Re: How to solder :-P (skywagon185guy .) 8. 10:36 AM - Re: Dual Alternator "Failure" - SOLVED (Jeff Luckey) 9. 01:47 PM - Re: FYI: Touch Screens...Navy thinks they are terrible. () 10. 03:05 PM - Re: FYI: Touch Screens...Navy thinks they are terrible. (Richard Girard) 11. 05:52 PM - Re: Dual Alternator "Failure" - SOLVED (user9253) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:13:39 AM PST US From: Bill Boyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FYI: Touch Screens...Navy thinks they are terrible. Well I for one wouldn't want my aircraft helm and throttle functions migrated to a touch screen, as appeared to be the case here. For just about everything else small aircraft, they're probably alright. Bill Boyd (whose only aircraft touch screen tech is a Garmin 795 GPS) On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 10:52 AM Werner Schneider wrote: > > > > Hi Eric, > > interesting did read that same story yesterday, but main issue was as > well, that the status was unclear between different stations on the ship > which caused the issue that one station wa scontrolling the left engine > and the 2nd station the right one (wonder in what situation this would > be needed) I think it is down to a team without any real operation > experience designing a system :) > > But true and behold not everithing we love on our tablets will work in > another environment ;) > > Cheers Werner > > On 13.08.2019 15:47, Eric M. Jones wrote: > emjones@charter.net> > > > > Worth reviewing and thinking about... > > https://tinyurl.com/Navy-touch-screens > > > > Basically, real buttons, knobs, handles and toggle switches are > preferable. > > > > Don't let "modern" be the enemy of the practicable. > > > > -------- > > Eric M. Jones > > www.PerihelionDesign.com > > 113 Brentwood Drive > > Southbridge, MA 01550 > > (508) 764-2072 > > emjones(at)charter.net > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490830#490830 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:01 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Alternator "Failure" From: "user9253" A very heavy electrical load could cause those symptoms. Of course that is highly unlikely also. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490864#490864 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:07 AM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FYI: Touch Screens...Navy thinks they are terrible. Also, a very simple modification is to clock all mechanical gauges so that the needle position for normal readings all point the same direction.=C2 - Left.=C2- Right. Up. Down. Doesn't really matter.=C2- Just all the same direction.=C2- Screws up the look of the panel while on the ground a t airshows, as the scales are all over the place.=C2- But, in the air a s can becomes just verifying that all the needles are pointing in the same di rection. On Tuesday, August 13, 2019, 2:35:52 PM EDT, Earl Schroeder wrote: Some predict that most of the =98systems=99 will eventually cha nge back to previous =98control=99 methods away from =98t ouch=99 screens. Years ago the control by deviation allowed hundreds of process controllers to be monitored by just a few people.=C2- Basically a red pointer showing from behind the green area on the controller display was reason for an emp loyee=99s attention. A study by the military (led by my Son [FAA employee]) determined the contr ol by exception was preferred rather than reading number digits requiring t he mind to decide if that was normal or not.=C2- This retired GE process control tech (over 30+ yrs experience) has not welc omed touch screens and their digital displays from the beginning.=C2- I h ope that the change back comes sooner rather than later..=C2- Earl Schroe der. > On Aug 13, 2019, at 9:43 AM, Werner Schneider wrote: > t> > > Hi Eric, > > interesting did read that same story yesterday, but main issue was as > well, that the status was unclear between different stations on the ship > which caused the issue that one station wa scontrolling the left engine > and the 2nd station the right one (wonder in what situation this would > be needed) I think it is down to a team without any real operation > experience designing a system :) > > But true and behold not everithing we love on our tablets will work in > another environment ;) > > Cheers Werner > >> On 13.08.2019 15:47, Eric M. Jones wrote: r.net> >> >> Worth reviewing and thinking about... >> https://tinyurl.com/Navy-touch-screens >> >> Basically, real buttons, knobs, handles and toggle switches are preferab le. >> >> Don't let "modern" be the enemy of the practicable. >> >> -------- >> Eric M. Jones >> www.PerihelionDesign.com >> 113 Brentwood Drive >> Southbridge, MA 01550 >> (508) 764-2072 >> emjones(at)charter.net >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490830#490830 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > - S - WIKI - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:59:02 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: BNC connectors =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= Tool recommendation/Installation question From: "Argonaut36" I am interested in purchasing a wire stripper that can be used for cutting the dielectric in RG400 coax cable to expose the central conductor (I use a blade for the outer sheath and the outer shield). I understand that the central conductor is similar in diameter, but not identical to electrical cable size 16 and I would like a wire stripper that is adjustable so that it can be adjusted to work very precisely with RG 400 coax cable. Any recommendations? I also have a question on installing BNC connectors on RG400 coax cable: the stripping lengths that I use are the following: outer shield: 3/8, dielectric: 3/32, central conductor: 9/32. Are these distances correct? I cant quite get the ferrule to touch the main body of the connector. I assume that no gap is acceptable. Thanks Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490867#490867 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:04 AM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual Alternator "Failure" - SOLVED Charlie and Joe, Thanks much for your quick replies. The problem was a blown fuse. Diagnosis was hindered because I had not bothered to update the wiring diagram. I will write this up more verbosely on my blog because I think it will make a good article. Briefly for this list, I have a shared fuse for the overvoltage lamps on the primary and backup voltage regulators. That same circuit also feeds pin 3 on the B&C voltage regulators. That fuse blew. Both the LR3C voltage regulator and the SB1B backup regulator respond the same way to 0 volts on pin 3: they stay in "do nothing" mode. Problems which contributed to the loss of both alternators in flight: - Shared fuse for pin 3 on both voltage regulators. - Inaccurate documentation. The wiring diagram shows independent fuses for each voltage regulator. - Lack of knowledge on my part, which allowed me to share the fuse. - Karma, which made this happen less than an hour after I had been proudly showing my friend how I had dual alternators. Kudos to TJ at B&C Aero. When I called to get educated on what pin 3 does and how the voltage regulator acts in response to 0 volts, he had already read my earlier post here and knew the background of my situation. Kudos to B&C Aero for providing an excellent troubleshooting guide within the LR3C Installation Manual. Step 2 pinpointed the problem. -- Art Z. On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 10:30 PM Charlie England wrote: > On 8/13/2019 7:48 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > > Folks, > > I had a weird "failure" this afternoon: neither alternator was doing > anything and neither alternator field circuit breaker had tripped. I put > "failure" in quotes because I don't believe that the alternators actually > failed; that is just too unlikely. Here are the details: > > First, the wiring diagram: > engine.pdf > > > I had taxied to the fuel pump, and back, and flown three legs. Five cycles > of engine start, operation, and shut down. All with alternators operating > correctly. As I started the takeoff roll for the fourth flight, the EFIS > alerted that bus voltage was low. I continued the takeoff; it was only a 15 > minute flight to home base. > > I have two B&C alternators with B&C voltage regulators, one primary belt > driven and one backup gear driven. > > Once airborne, I cycled the alternator field switches. No joy from either > alternator. I pulled and reset both field circuit breakers. No joy. I even > power cycled the master, on the hope that the EFIS voltage regulator was at > fault. No joy. > > During the third flight, the primary alternator field breaker had popped. > I reset it and the alternator returned to normal operation. It was stupidly > hot in the cockpit and the sun was shining on my black glare shield and I > know that I need ventilation behind the instrument panel. I chalked this up > to heat and vibration. In 87 hours of operation, this is only the second > time that that breaker has popped. After resetting the breaker, I checked > both alternators independently (turning off each field switch in turn) and > confirmed that each was operating normally. > > I had 12.9 volts during the takeoff roll. It was down to 12.6 volts on > landing. so definitely no output from the alternators. The voltage > regulators are set for 14.5 volts and 13.0 volts. I typically see 14.8 or > 14.9 volts from the primary and 13.1 from the backup alternator. > > Do you have any ideas what could cause this? I did a tiny amount of > debugging but I was hot and tired so I did not get into the weeds, yet. I > confirmed that both current limiters between the alternators and the > battery contactor are OK. I tugged on the cable between the current > limiters and the battery contactor and it seems solid, no loose nuts. I > removed the glare shield and checked the voltage regulators. Both were warm > but not hot. All of the wires connected to them are tight. > > Hi Art, > > Looking at your pdf, the only thing in common is the 'fat' wire from > starter to master contactor, then to your main bus. Any circuit protections > anywhere along that path? > > Regardless of where your current failure is located, that's something to > think about; any issue along that path can take out both alternators. > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. *Deut. 10:19 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:15:41 AM PST US From: argoldman@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual Alternator "Failure" Greetings Art, An interesting problem. Hopefully you will have solved it by now, however if not here are some diag nostic tests that=C2- you can easily do. The wring diagram seems like it is adequate, although I wonder why you used a hall sensor to=C2- the auxi liary alternator connected to the B&C regulator 7,1,&2. A charging system of an aircraft (car etc) is a relatively simple deal. The alternator spins and under the right field input voltage sends regulated V OLTAGE out to the ship. The voltage regulator takes bus power (12V or so) a nd controls the VOLTAGE output of the alternator via turning the alternator on and off to maintain the appropriate set voltage. That being the case, there are a couple of places that, using a simple VOM, you can check non-destructively. 1. With master and other switches on check the voltage at regulator pin 6 ( bus voltage in) on each regulator.If you get no voltage here the fault is s omewhere between the battery and pin 6 ie switches, contactors, breakers, w iring etc. 2 if you are getting the appropriate voltage at these pins (screw terminals )=C2- then check the continuity between screw 4 and the field input wire at each alternator. if there is no continuity, it is probably the wire(s). If the continuity is there it may be the regulators (where are they located -- is it a hot place? Dual failures probably mitigate the fact that the regulators, themselves ar e at fault, however I would suspect the bus wiring leading up to the regula tors (screw 6) to be at fault. Although you have a good wiring diagram, many times we (I) make modificatio ns that seem minor which have consequences. I would suspect your switches or circuit breakers. When you tugged on the wires that confirmed physical continuity but not ele ctrical continuity. Check continuity with VOM (multimeter) while pulling. A nother source of non-conductivity is corrosion in the terminals somewhere a long the line. You can use the multimeter to check resistance of these lead s. The breakers that we use are generally thermal and the high temperature beh ind the IP could have been the reason for the trip-- or what?? (did the fir st trip of the breaker happen with high heat in the cabin?") Good luck in hunting---Let us know what you found. Rich -----Original Message----- From: Art Zemon Sent: Tue, Aug 13, 2019 7:51 pm Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dual Alternator "Failure" Folks, I had a weird "failure" this afternoon: neither alternator was doing anythi ng and neither alternator field circuit breaker had tripped. I put "failure " in quotes because I don't believe that the alternators actually failed; t hat is just too unlikely. Here are the details: First, the wiring diagram: =C2-engine.pdf I had taxied to the fuel pump, and back, and flown three legs. Five cycles of engine start, operation, and shut down. All with alternators operating c orrectly. As I started the takeoff roll for the fourth flight, the EFIS ale rted that bus voltage was low. I continued the takeoff; it was only a 15 mi nute flight to home base. I have two B&C alternators with B&C voltage regulators, one primary belt dr iven and one backup gear driven. Once airborne, I cycled the alternator field switches. No joy from either a lternator. I pulled and reset both field circuit breakers. No joy. I even p ower cycled the master, on the hope that the EFIS voltage regulator was at fault. No joy. During the third flight, the primary alternator field breaker had popped. I reset it and the alternator returned to normal operation. It was stupidly hot in the cockpit and the sun was shining on my black glare shield and I k now that I need ventilation behind the instrument panel. I chalked this up to heat and vibration. In 87 hours of operation, this is only the second ti me that that breaker has popped. After resetting the breaker, I checked bot h alternators independently (turning off each field switch in turn) and con firmed that each was operating normally. I had 12.9 volts during the takeoff roll. It was down to 12.6 volts on land ing. so definitely no output from the alternators. The voltage regulators a re set for 14.5 volts and 13.0 volts. I typically see 14.8 or 14.9 volts fr om the primary and 13.1 from the backup alternator. Do you have any ideas what could cause this? I did a tiny amount of debuggi ng but I was hot and tired so I did not get into the weeds, yet. I confirme d that both current limiters between the alternators and the battery contac tor are OK. I tugged on the cable between the current limiters and the batt ery contactor and it seems solid, no loose nuts. I removed the glare shield and checked the voltage regulators. Both were warm but not hot. All of the wires connected to them are tight. =C2- =C2- -- Art Z. P.S. Yes, the engine was turning :-) so I assume that both alternators were turning. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:26:59 AM PST US From: "skywagon185guy ." Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How to solder :-P That's hysterical. . . Wonder who treats the burns. . .!!! On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 8:03 PM Art Zemon wrote: > [image: Is-she-a-model-or-a-worker.jpg] > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. *Deut. > 10:19 > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:36:57 AM PST US From: Jeff Luckey Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual Alternator "Failure" - SOLVED Ouch!=C2- The dreaded single point of failure!=C2- (all that redundanc y compromised by a ten cent fuse;) Glad to hear you found it and not (as our fearless leader says) "on a dark and stormy night" -Jeff On Wednesday, August 14, 2019, 9:24:50 AM PDT, Art Zemon wrote: Charlie and Joe, Thanks much for your quick replies.=C2- The problem was a blown fuse. Diagnosis was hindered because I had not both ered to update the wiring diagram. I will write this up more verbosely on my blog because I think it will make a good article. Briefly for this list, I have a shared fuse for the overvo ltage lamps on the primary and backup voltage regulators. That same circuit also feeds pin 3 on the B&C voltage regulators. That fuse blew. Both the L R3C voltage regulator and the SB1B backup regulator respond the same way to 0 volts on pin 3: they stay in "do nothing" mode. Problems which contributed to the loss of both alternators in flight: - Shared fuse for pin 3 on both voltage regulators. - Inaccurate documentation. The wiring diagram shows independent fuses f or each voltage regulator. - Lack of knowledge on my part, which allowed me to share the fuse. - Karma, which made this happen less than an hour after I had been proud ly showing my friend how I had dual alternators. Kudos to TJ at B&C Aero. When I called to get educated on what pin 3 does a nd how the voltage regulator acts in response to 0 volts, he had already re ad my earlier post here and knew the background of my situation. Kudos to B&C Aero for providing an excellent troubleshooting guide within t he LR3C Installation Manual. Step 2 pinpointed the problem. =C2- =C2- -- Art Z. On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 10:30 PM Charlie England wro te: On 8/13/2019 7:48 PM, Art Zemon wrote: Folks, I had a weird "failure" this afternoon: neither alternator was doing anyt hing and neither alternator field circuit breaker had tripped. I put "failu re" in quotes because I don't believe that the alternators actually failed; that is just too unlikely. Here are the details: First, the wiring diagram: =C2-engine.pdf I had taxied to the fuel pump, and back, and flown three legs. Five cycle s of engine start, operation, and shut down. All with alternators operating correctly. As I started the takeoff roll for the fourth flight, the EFIS a lerted that bus voltage was low. I continued the takeoff; it was only a 15 minute flight to home base. I have two B&C alternators with B&C voltage regulators, one primary belt driven and one backup gear driven. Once airborne, I cycled the alternator field switches. No joy from either alternator. I pulled and reset both field circuit breakers. No joy. I even power cycled the master, on the hope that the EFIS voltage regulator was a t fault. No joy. During the third flight, the primary alternator field breaker had popped. I reset it and the alternator returned to normal operation. It was stupidl y hot in the cockpit and the sun was shining on my black glare shield and I know that I need ventilation behind the instrument panel. I chalked this u p to heat and vibration. In 87 hours of operation, this is only the second time that that breaker has popped. After resetting the breaker, I checked b oth alternators independently (turning off each field switch in turn) and c onfirmed that each was operating normally. I had 12.9 volts during the takeoff roll. It was down to 12.6 volts on lan ding. so definitely no output from the alternators. The voltage regulators are set for 14.5 volts and 13.0 volts. I typically see 14.8 or 14.9 volts f rom the primary and 13.1 from the backup alternator. Do you have any ideas what could cause this? I did a tiny amount of debu gging but I was hot and tired so I did not get into the weeds, yet. I confi rmed that both current limiters between the alternators and the battery con tactor are OK. I tugged on the cable between the current limiters and the b attery contactor and it seems solid, no loose nuts. I removed the glare shi eld and checked the voltage regulators. Both were warm but not hot. All of the wires connected to them are tight. Hi Art, Looking at your pdf, the only thing in common is the 'fat' wire from start er to master contactor, then to your main bus. Any circuit protections anyw here along that path? Regardless of where your current failure is located, that's something to t hink about; any issue along that path can take out both alternators. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:47:36 PM PST US From: Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: FYI: Touch Screens...Navy thinks they are terrible. If you actually read the article, THAT's what the Navy says they are moving away from... Touchscreen "controls" are being replaced (as they darn well should) with manual throttles and wheels. I don't think very many of us GA pilots are flying aircraft where the power is controlled by a touchscreen interface, much less the "steering" (ailerons, elevator, and rudder) being done via touch-screen... When it comes to "touch screen interfaces" in GA flying, it's usually to create or change the flight plan, change the screen view, etc. And though I like having both touch- and twist-push-pull controls (a la the more recent navigators from both Garmin and Avidyne), I find the non-touch interfaces are far less intuitive to me... That's why I had to spend hours in the cockpit (and on a simulator at home) learning the "buttonology" for those systems... The touch-screen side is MUCH easier for me -- except in turbulence, when the non-touch alternatives come in handy, even though they are slower to use, and I find the menu structures significantly more challenging to remember. That said, like the "new Navy", I STILL have a strong preference for physical switches and circuit breakers, rather than the "magic boxes" that take their place in many new homebuilt (and even commercial) airplanes. I like being able to literally "put my finger" on the problem circuit breaker or switch... Jim Parker ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:05:40 PM PST US From: Richard Girard Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FYI: Touch Screens...Navy thinks they are terrible. As I was looking about for something to smash the touchscreen at the supermarket self checkout lane, the monitor came over to help. As I told him, "there's a reason the Navy is ripping these things out". They may be OK for some applications, I wouldn't put one in any vehicle, much less one that flies. Rick On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 3:53 PM wrote: > > If you actually read the article, THAT's what the Navy says they are > moving away from... Touchscreen "controls" are being replaced (as they > darn well should) with manual throttles and wheels. I don't think very > many of us GA pilots are flying aircraft where the power is controlled > by a touchscreen interface, much less the "steering" (ailerons, > elevator, and rudder) being done via touch-screen... > > When it comes to "touch screen interfaces" in GA flying, it's usually to > create or change the flight plan, change the screen view, etc. And > though I like having both touch- and twist-push-pull controls (a la the > more recent navigators from both Garmin and Avidyne), I find the > non-touch interfaces are far less intuitive to me... That's why I had > to spend hours in the cockpit (and on a simulator at home) learning the > "buttonology" for those systems... The touch-screen side is MUCH easier > for me -- except in turbulence, when the non-touch alternatives come in > handy, even though they are slower to use, and I find the menu > structures significantly more challenging to remember. > > That said, like the "new Navy", I STILL have a strong preference for > physical switches and circuit breakers, rather than the "magic boxes" > that take their place in many new homebuilt (and even commercial) > airplanes. I like being able to literally "put my finger" on the > problem circuit breaker or switch... > > Jim Parker > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:56 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Alternator "Failure" - SOLVED From: "user9253" The above situation reinforces the recommendation to have a separate fuse for each and every load, no matter how small or insignificant. Fuse are inexpensive. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490876#490876 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.