Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:39 AM - Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM (racerjerry)
2. 09:45 AM - Re: Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 09:46 AM - Re: Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 10:42 AM - Re: Desulfators and Lithium (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 01:12 PM - Re: Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 01:44 PM - Re: Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram (Charlie England)
7. 03:25 PM - Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram (markfw)
8. 04:29 PM - Re: Desulfators and Lithium (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 05:37 PM - Re: ATO vs ATC fuses (Sebastien)
10. 06:44 PM - Re: ATO vs ATC fuses (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 07:36 PM - Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram (markfw)
12. 07:49 PM - Re: Next generation wig-wag controller for LED lamps (fvfdums)
13. 09:34 PM - Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM (Argonaut36)
14. 10:33 PM - Re: ATO vs ATC fuses (Sebastien)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM |
How is regulator grounded? The voltage regulator must be solidly grounded in order
to function. You might want to install an external ground wire from the
voltage regulator case directly to the alternator housing. Also, remove and clean
each wire terminal connection.
If problem is still present, run a temporary "test" wire from the alternator field
terminal into the cockpit allowing field voltage measurement. If alternator
shuts down with voltage present at the alternator field terminal, the alternator
is definitely at fault.
If there is no field voltage, the regulator is at fault OR as previously suggested,
no power is getting to the regulator. Poor contacts on the alternator side
of the master switch may be the culprit and it is not at all uncommon.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493832#493832
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM |
At 06:38 AM 12/15/2019, you wrote:
>
<snip>
>
>If there is no field voltage, the regulator is at fault OR as
>previously suggested, no power is getting to the regulator. Poor
>contacts on the alternator side of the master switch may be the
>culprit and it is not at all uncommon.
Right on!
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM |
At 10:37 PM 12/14/2019, you wrote:
>
>Today the alternator went offline again after landing, despite a
>raised idle and I was not able to reset it. I turned the engine off
>and I re-started it after a few minutes. The alternator did not
>come online. So heat seems to be causing the voltage regulator to
>cut off. My regulator is a VR371S. The S at the end means 'sealed'
>and, because it is sealed, it can be installed in the engine
>compartment on the firewall. As pointed out by echristley, mine
>does not seem to tolerate heat well.
>
>
Troubleshooting an alternator system is
a process of divide and conquer. It's either
(1) a bad regulator or (2) alternator and just
maybe (3) wiring.
The first thing to do is make a temporary,
installation of a known-good regulator as
suggested previously. If practical, bring
a test-wire from alternator(s) field connection
into the cockpit and monitor voltage on that
wire.
If the problem repeats, what is the field
voltage after the condition presents?
If the problem doesn't repeat after a
few flights, then replace the regulator . . .
suggest you change models . . . perhaps
make a permanent installation of your
'test' regulator.
If it repeats and the field voltage is
high (greater than 6v) then the altenrator
is bad. If the voltage is low (probably
less than 1v) then either the regulator
is bad or wiring is bad. It's a 99%
probability that it's the regulator.
Until you conduct definitive testing,
you're at risk for spending a lot of
time chasing herds of insignificant
rabbits.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Desulfators and Lithium |
At 04:47 PM 12/14/2019, you wrote:
>Battery Minders (maintainers)
>I too am a big fan of using a Maintainer on any type of lead acid battery.
>Been using them for years also with very good
>results EXCEPT for one problem...
>The Maintainer itself uses standard wall ac
>power, however, there is a feedback that uses dc
>associated with the battery.=C2 The problem comes
>when the main power stops, i.e. GFI controlled
>ac gets triggered off, main ac power is cut, etc.
Not all maintainers are the same. To be sure, the
maintainer's internal circuits need to constantly
measure terminal voltage of the battery under test.
This implies some, albeit small current into the
monitoring system.
My latest/greatest BatteryMINDer seems to feature
some form of sampler disconnect when powered down.
I just measured the device's power-down back flow
and found it to be too small to measure if not zero.
>If this condition is not caught early enough, by
>disconnecting the Maintainer, it will slowly
>discharge the battery until it is flat and quite possibly damaged.
>Maintainers are rarely checked once clipped on
>the battery as they are dependable, except when
>primary ac power is dropped.=C2 I suggest to
>never power the maintainer via a GFI controlled
>ac power plug as they are usually on community
>circuits and subject to mysterious
>tripping.=C2 If no one is present to notice and
>reset=C2 the fault, one will not be happy with the results.....
Better yet . . . MEASURE the backflow current into
your favorite battery maintenance device. I would
hate to expend a lot of worry-capital building
a defense for a non-existent risk. I've got about
a half dozen maintainers in the mess-making-shop
some with histories that go back 20+ years.
If I can get out there yet this weekend, I'll
do back-flow measurements on the lots and report
findings here.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram |
At 01:04 PM 12/14/2019, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>Thank you for your reply.
>
>I changed Z11 in four ways:
>1. I am using an EFI system so I enlarged the Endurance Bus to
>incorporate all of the EFI component circuits
Okay, in the 'endurance mode' what are your
design goals for battery only operations? The
E-bus plus Battery bus loads generally define
alternator-out loads. Not real clear from
the load analysis narrative.
>2. I added a Lighting Bus with C/B's just to make wiring the panel
>easier and because I was out of fuse positions on my Port side fuse block;
added cbs? Why not another small fuse
block?
>3. I did not incorporate the E-Bus alternate feed;
then you don't have an e-bus . . . it's just
an extension of the main bus.
>4. I used SSR relays rather than contactors.
Z-11 doesn't care what kind of contactor.
The Z drawings are about architecture and
failure mode effects mitigation.
>I assumed that Z11 was correct. I was only asking about the
>reasoning about when to use fuses for my own education.
Very good.
>Does 8AWG wire qualify as "fat" in this context of circuit protection?
yes
>I will have an O-340 from LyCon as my engine.
Do you have an otherwise unused vacuum pump
pad? Why not a second alternator?
>My load analysis is attached to this e-mail.
Do your injectors really draw 1.5A average or
6A for the suite of injectors?
>Joe, I was not asking about a second battery to backup my primary
>battery. I was asking about it as a way to extend my flight time in
>the Alternator Out situation. With my EFI my ALT OUT cruise power
>consumption is 20A so a 7 pound ETX1200 battery would give me
>approximately an hour of flight time, which should work for most of
>my needs. I was just exploring what it would take to add in a second
>battery for certain higher risk trips over water or mountains so I
>would not have to carry that extra weight all of the time.
An pad-driven alternator would easily carry
your anticipated system loads, have a lower
cost of ownership than a second battery. The
'e bus' goes away. Would recommend a battery
bus that would support all vital engine functions
so that the panel could be made 'max dark' without
killing the engine.
We would sure like to see a schematic
of this system. Schematics are the fundamental
language for FFA (Function and Failure Analysis).
It appears that you have a 50A b-lead breaker
on the panel? That hasn't been done on most TC
aircraft in decades . . . it's not illustrated
on any z-figure.
You speak to an 'essential bus' but with
no narrative or schematic as to how this
bus gets isolated for energy management
in an alternator-out condition?
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram |
On Sun, Dec 15, 2019 at 3:18 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 01:04 PM 12/14/2019, you wrote:
>
> markwheelermd@icloud.com>
>
> Bob,
>
> Thank you for your reply.
>
> I changed Z11 in four ways:
> 1. I am using an EFI system so I enlarged the Endurance Bus to incorporate
> all of the EFI component circuits
>
>
> Okay, in the 'endurance mode' what are your
> design goals for battery only operations? The
> E-bus plus Battery bus loads generally define
> alternator-out loads. Not real clear from
> the load analysis narrative.
>
> 2. I added a Lighting Bus with C/B's just to make wiring the panel easier
> and because I was out of fuse positions on my Port side fuse block;
>
>
> added cbs? Why not another small fuse
> block?
>
> 3. I did not incorporate the E-Bus alternate feed;
>
>
> then you don't have an e-bus . . . it's just
> an extension of the main bus.
>
> 4. I used SSR relays rather than contactors.
>
>
> Z-11 doesn't care what kind of contactor.
> The Z drawings are about architecture and
> failure mode effects mitigation.
>
> I assumed that Z11 was correct. I was only asking about the reasoning
> about when to use fuses for my own education.
>
>
> Very good.
>
>
> Does 8AWG wire qualify as "fat" in this context of circuit protection?
>
>
> yes
>
>
> I will have an O-340 from LyCon as my engine.
>
>
> Do you have an otherwise unused vacuum pump
> pad? Why not a second alternator?
>
>
> My load analysis is attached to this e-mail.
>
>
> Do your injectors really draw 1.5A average or
> 6A for the suite of injectors?
>
>
> Joe, I was not asking about a second battery to backup my primary battery.
> I was asking about it as a way to extend my flight time in the Alternator
> Out situation. With my EFI my ALT OUT cruise power consumption is 20A so a
> 7 pound ETX1200 battery would give me approximately an hour of flight time,
> which should work for most of my needs. I was just exploring what it would
> take to add in a second battery for certain higher risk trips over water or
> mountains so I would not have to carry that extra weight all of the time.
>
>
> An pad-driven alternator would easily carry
> your anticipated system loads, have a lower
> cost of ownership than a second battery. The
> 'e bus' goes away. Would recommend a battery
> bus that would support all vital engine functions
> so that the panel could be made 'max dark' without
> killing the engine.
>
> We would sure like to see a schematic
> of this system. Schematics are the fundamental
> language for FFA (Function and Failure Analysis).
> It appears that you have a 50A b-lead breaker
> on the panel? That hasn't been done on most TC
> aircraft in decades . . . it's not illustrated
> on any z-figure.
>
> You speak to an 'essential bus' but with
> no narrative or schematic as to how this
> bus gets isolated for energy management
> in an alternator-out condition?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Bob,
I can't directly address your Q about individual injector current draw.
They tend to 'peak' at each trigger, but duty cycle varies wildly, and how
they're operated varies wildly among control techniques (true timed
injection which is rare in a/c vs 'batch fire' vs 'semi-sequential' vs
??). But the alt engine guys have been flying auto-style electronic engine
control for a lot longer than the Lyc guys, and common numbers by numerous
guys flying this type of *system* for a high pressure fuel pump, injectors,
igniters, and computer would be 12-15 amps; likely leaning toward the high
side of that spread. I have a friend who's a retired P-W engineer who
tested his system in flight for battery-only operation. With a healthy
PC680, IIRC he flew for ~40 minutes before seeing voltage drop to near
'discharge state' before bringing the alternator back on line. I don't
recall what power setting he was using for the test. Obviously, operating
at higher power levels requires more energy for the various electronic bits.
Charlie
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram |
Bob,
My design goals for Alt Out operations are approximately 1 hour of flight time
to get on the ground while continuing use of my EFI, EFIS, EIS 1 radio and the
transponder.
As an overarching design constraint, I am LSA so I am weight sensitive in all of
my decisions.
I am using surface mounted fuse blocks on the cockpit quarter panels where I can
see if there has been a blown fuse because an LED lights up. No I don't intend
to change them in flight, but I want to know. I have a space constraint for
mounting another fuse block, so I decided to use C/B's. However, I will say that
I went back and forth on this and this morning I actually moved them onto
the existing fuse block rather than keeping some spare circuits. Weight is about
a wash either way.
It's clear that I don't understand the difference between an E-Bus and an Endurance
Bus. What I am calling an E-Bus is a bus fed by the battery that can power
my essential electrical needs (approximately 20 amps) for an hour. My main Bus
is on a switch so I can dump all of my non-essential loads easily. The Alt
Field is on a separate switch, so I would also turn that off.
I have attached my current schematic which is A WORK IN PROGRESS (wire gauges are
wrong, no grounds, no sheet for the EFI itself, etc). I do plan to submit it
here when I am happy with it. However it certainly is tough for you to give
me advice without any idea at all about what I am up to.
Since I am very weight conscious I decided early on that I would use the light
weight ECI accessory pad which does not provide a vacuum or prop governor. This
saves 1.5 pounds. The B&C SD-20 spine driven alternator is 5.75 pounds, plus
creates space issues for me under the cowl. I thought that I would rather spend
that 7.25 pounds on a spare battery if my mission needed it.
The injectors draw 1.5 - 2.0 amps each depending on load. The vendor recommends
5 amp fuses.
The 50 amp b-lead breaker is simply copied from what Cubcrafters does on their
certified Carbon Cubs. What is the right answer? An ANL fuse somewhere?
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493840#493840
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/n36cx_edraw_circuit_diagram__v1_159.pdf
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Desulfators and Lithium |
At 03:44 PM 12/14/2019, you wrote:
>
>I just had pointed out to me a study that lends something to the discussion:
>https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318890311_Impact_of_Pulse_Voltage_as_Desulfator_to_Improve_Automotive_Lead_Acid_Battery_Capacity
>
>I can't say that it appears definitive, nor particularly
>quantitative, but at least attempted to study the subject.
Unfortunately, it's VERY un-quantitative . . . and
short on illumination.
"Pulse" charging techniques have been proposed
and sorta demonstrated for decades. I can recall
conversations I had with local fellow ham-operators
back in the 60's.
This particular article takes a little different approach.
Instead of 'hammering' the pesky lead-sulfate crystals
with a 'high' energy pulse, this article appears to
claim that a simple 50% duty cycle charging protocol
that 'respects the manufacturer's specifications'.
The repetition rate can be 'user programmed' at
any frequency from 2 to 6 Mhz to ostensibly
coordinated with a 'resonance frequency' . . .
thereafter undefined. No mention of the
experiment's test frequency or how an
optimized test frequency can be determined.
The paper uses the word 'capacity' 29 times
yet never describes how capacity improvements
are quantified. The paper speaks to open circuit
voltage measurements which are loosely correlated
to state of charge but say nothing about improvements
in deliverable Joules or Watt-Seconds by a rejuvenated
battery.
The by-lines for these authors don't indicate
their pedigree . . . so are they students? If
students, then their teachers should be duct-taped
to a chalk-board and flogged with their own
slide-rule.
My kiddo's 7th grade science fair project
and presentation demonstrated more science than
this paper. Nothing to see here . . .
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: ATO vs ATC fuses |
I like the look and smaller size of the mini fuses and assumed that there
would be a plentiful supply of fuse blocks for them but came up empty
online. I've seen a couple aircraft with fuse blocks for mini fuses though
so they are out there. While looking around I found plenty of marine fuse
blocks with ground busses included which seems like a great idea.
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/12V-12-WAY-Fuse-Block-Box-Holder-ATC-ATO-Blade-Garavan-Marine-Dual-Battery-CA/254336429525?hash=item3b37a1edd5:g:A2YAAOSwk8xdEc6G
Unfortunately they are all for fork connectors and I really like the idea
of tabs for ease of maintenance under the panel.
Maybe it's time B & C updated their offerings in this area? A fuse block
with LEDs to indicate blown fuses with a forest of tabs built in?
On Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 11:58 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 08:07 PM 12/13/2019, you wrote:
>
> Interesting question. At the same time I'd like to ask if there is any
> downside to using mini fuses.
>
>
> Not aware of any pre-fabricated panels
> for the mini fuses. You're looking for ease
> of installation and robustness. The fuseblocks
> eliminate breaker panels and bus bars while
> allowing the distribution to be mounted out
> of sight/mind.
>
> Any 'savings' for down-sizing to mini fuses
> would be small.
>
> Bob . . .
>
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| Subject: | Re: ATO vs ATC fuses |
>While looking around I found plenty of marine fuse blocks with
>ground busses included which seems like a great idea.
Not recommended . . .
Your system grounds need to be patterned after
Z-15 examples . . . not scattered around on a variety
of fuse blocks.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram |
Bob,
You were right. My spreadsheet numbers (and my memory of the correct numbers) were
wrong.
The range of energy consumption per injection according to their vendor is .5 -
1.5 amps depending on load.
My load (5 gph) is at the bottom of his range.
It doesnt change my design, but I have to eat humble pie.
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493845#493845
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| Subject: | Re: Next generation wig-wag controller for LED lamps |
oh,it is a good idea.Good ideas are just for everyone to share.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
My stepper motor website:skysmotor.com (https://www.skysmotor.com/) - Machinery Design ? - ? Stepper Moter Development
"Necessity is the mother of invention." - Author unknown.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493846#493846
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM |
Bob,
Many thanks for your comments and suggestions.
My airplane has a standard certificate and I cannot fly with a model of voltage
regulator different from the one that I have in the airplane now. I could do
tests on the ground with another voltage regulator, but I dont see the benefit,
because my alternator works normally on the ground, except after landing when
the engine is hot (well above the temperatures that I see in flight).
At this point I would rule out the alternator, because I had similar problems with
my previous alternator. Two bad alternators is possible, but not very likely.
This leaves the voltage regulator and the wiring. I checked the wires in
the engine compartment (easily accessible) and replaced a section that was not
in good conditions. I also installed an additional ground line for the alternator
following the instructions of the alternator manufacturer. I did not
check the wiring in the cabin, but that wiring seems to be working fine when the
engine is at normal temperature and it should not see higher temperature when
the engine is hot.
Any additional thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493851#493851
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| Subject: | Re: ATO vs ATC fuses |
Actually Bob Z-15 was what I was thinking of. Each of those fuse blocks has
12 fused power and 12 ground terminals. One block would be the endurance
bus / avionics ground bus and the other block would be the main bus / panel
ground bus. Although doing it that way I would connect the two ground
busses with a braided cable instead of the 5x20awg on the diagram. Why does
Z-15 have 5x20awg instead of a bonding strap?
In any case, if I do rewire the plane I think I'll stick to the fuse blocks
with tabs instead of screws and a single forest of tabs for the grounds
(none of my avionics would need a separate ground bus and I don't have any
firewall forward small grounds so only one ground bus).
On Sun, Dec 15, 2019 at 6:49 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> While looking around I found plenty of marine fuse blocks with ground
> busses included which seems like a great idea.
>
>
> Not recommended . . .
> Your system grounds need to be patterned after
> Z-15 examples . . . not scattered around on a variety
> of fuse blocks.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
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