---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 12/15/19: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:39 AM - Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM (racerjerry) 2. 09:45 AM - Re: Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 09:46 AM - Re: Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 10:42 AM - Re: Desulfators and Lithium (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 01:12 PM - Re: Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 01:44 PM - Re: Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram (Charlie England) 7. 03:25 PM - Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram (markfw) 8. 04:29 PM - Re: Desulfators and Lithium (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 05:37 PM - Re: ATO vs ATC fuses (Sebastien) 10. 06:44 PM - Re: ATO vs ATC fuses (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 07:36 PM - Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram (markfw) 12. 07:49 PM - Re: Next generation wig-wag controller for LED lamps (fvfdums) 13. 09:34 PM - Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM (Argonaut36) 14. 10:33 PM - Re: ATO vs ATC fuses (Sebastien) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:39:08 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM From: "racerjerry" How is regulator grounded? The voltage regulator must be solidly grounded in order to function. You might want to install an external ground wire from the voltage regulator case directly to the alternator housing. Also, remove and clean each wire terminal connection. If problem is still present, run a temporary "test" wire from the alternator field terminal into the cockpit allowing field voltage measurement. If alternator shuts down with voltage present at the alternator field terminal, the alternator is definitely at fault. If there is no field voltage, the regulator is at fault OR as previously suggested, no power is getting to the regulator. Poor contacts on the alternator side of the master switch may be the culprit and it is not at all uncommon. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493832#493832 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:58 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM At 06:38 AM 12/15/2019, you wrote: > > >If there is no field voltage, the regulator is at fault OR as >previously suggested, no power is getting to the regulator. Poor >contacts on the alternator side of the master switch may be the >culprit and it is not at all uncommon. Right on! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:46:02 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM At 10:37 PM 12/14/2019, you wrote: > >Today the alternator went offline again after landing, despite a >raised idle and I was not able to reset it. I turned the engine off >and I re-started it after a few minutes. The alternator did not >come online. So heat seems to be causing the voltage regulator to >cut off. My regulator is a VR371S. The S at the end means 'sealed' >and, because it is sealed, it can be installed in the engine >compartment on the firewall. As pointed out by echristley, mine >does not seem to tolerate heat well. > > Troubleshooting an alternator system is a process of divide and conquer. It's either (1) a bad regulator or (2) alternator and just maybe (3) wiring. The first thing to do is make a temporary, installation of a known-good regulator as suggested previously. If practical, bring a test-wire from alternator(s) field connection into the cockpit and monitor voltage on that wire. If the problem repeats, what is the field voltage after the condition presents? If the problem doesn't repeat after a few flights, then replace the regulator . . . suggest you change models . . . perhaps make a permanent installation of your 'test' regulator. If it repeats and the field voltage is high (greater than 6v) then the altenrator is bad. If the voltage is low (probably less than 1v) then either the regulator is bad or wiring is bad. It's a 99% probability that it's the regulator. Until you conduct definitive testing, you're at risk for spending a lot of time chasing herds of insignificant rabbits. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:42:57 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Desulfators and Lithium At 04:47 PM 12/14/2019, you wrote: >Battery Minders (maintainers) >I too am a big fan of using a Maintainer on any type of lead acid battery. >Been using them for years also with very good >results EXCEPT for one problem... >The Maintainer itself uses standard wall ac >power, however, there is a feedback that uses dc >associated with the battery.=C2 The problem comes >when the main power stops, i.e. GFI controlled >ac gets triggered off, main ac power is cut, etc. Not all maintainers are the same. To be sure, the maintainer's internal circuits need to constantly measure terminal voltage of the battery under test. This implies some, albeit small current into the monitoring system. My latest/greatest BatteryMINDer seems to feature some form of sampler disconnect when powered down. I just measured the device's power-down back flow and found it to be too small to measure if not zero. >If this condition is not caught early enough, by >disconnecting the Maintainer, it will slowly >discharge the battery until it is flat and quite possibly damaged. >Maintainers are rarely checked once clipped on >the battery as they are dependable, except when >primary ac power is dropped.=C2 I suggest to >never power the maintainer via a GFI controlled >ac power plug as they are usually on community >circuits and subject to mysterious >tripping.=C2 If no one is present to notice and >reset=C2 the fault, one will not be happy with the results..... Better yet . . . MEASURE the backflow current into your favorite battery maintenance device. I would hate to expend a lot of worry-capital building a defense for a non-existent risk. I've got about a half dozen maintainers in the mess-making-shop some with histories that go back 20+ years. If I can get out there yet this weekend, I'll do back-flow measurements on the lots and report findings here. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:12:32 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram At 01:04 PM 12/14/2019, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Thank you for your reply. > >I changed Z11 in four ways: >1. I am using an EFI system so I enlarged the Endurance Bus to >incorporate all of the EFI component circuits Okay, in the 'endurance mode' what are your design goals for battery only operations? The E-bus plus Battery bus loads generally define alternator-out loads. Not real clear from the load analysis narrative. >2. I added a Lighting Bus with C/B's just to make wiring the panel >easier and because I was out of fuse positions on my Port side fuse block; added cbs? Why not another small fuse block? >3. I did not incorporate the E-Bus alternate feed; then you don't have an e-bus . . . it's just an extension of the main bus. >4. I used SSR relays rather than contactors. Z-11 doesn't care what kind of contactor. The Z drawings are about architecture and failure mode effects mitigation. >I assumed that Z11 was correct. I was only asking about the >reasoning about when to use fuses for my own education. Very good. >Does 8AWG wire qualify as "fat" in this context of circuit protection? yes >I will have an O-340 from LyCon as my engine. Do you have an otherwise unused vacuum pump pad? Why not a second alternator? >My load analysis is attached to this e-mail. Do your injectors really draw 1.5A average or 6A for the suite of injectors? >Joe, I was not asking about a second battery to backup my primary >battery. I was asking about it as a way to extend my flight time in >the Alternator Out situation. With my EFI my ALT OUT cruise power >consumption is 20A so a 7 pound ETX1200 battery would give me >approximately an hour of flight time, which should work for most of >my needs. I was just exploring what it would take to add in a second >battery for certain higher risk trips over water or mountains so I >would not have to carry that extra weight all of the time. An pad-driven alternator would easily carry your anticipated system loads, have a lower cost of ownership than a second battery. The 'e bus' goes away. Would recommend a battery bus that would support all vital engine functions so that the panel could be made 'max dark' without killing the engine. We would sure like to see a schematic of this system. Schematics are the fundamental language for FFA (Function and Failure Analysis). It appears that you have a 50A b-lead breaker on the panel? That hasn't been done on most TC aircraft in decades . . . it's not illustrated on any z-figure. You speak to an 'essential bus' but with no narrative or schematic as to how this bus gets isolated for energy management in an alternator-out condition? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:19 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram On Sun, Dec 15, 2019 at 3:18 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 01:04 PM 12/14/2019, you wrote: > > markwheelermd@icloud.com> > > Bob, > > Thank you for your reply. > > I changed Z11 in four ways: > 1. I am using an EFI system so I enlarged the Endurance Bus to incorporate > all of the EFI component circuits > > > Okay, in the 'endurance mode' what are your > design goals for battery only operations? The > E-bus plus Battery bus loads generally define > alternator-out loads. Not real clear from > the load analysis narrative. > > 2. I added a Lighting Bus with C/B's just to make wiring the panel easier > and because I was out of fuse positions on my Port side fuse block; > > > added cbs? Why not another small fuse > block? > > 3. I did not incorporate the E-Bus alternate feed; > > > then you don't have an e-bus . . . it's just > an extension of the main bus. > > 4. I used SSR relays rather than contactors. > > > Z-11 doesn't care what kind of contactor. > The Z drawings are about architecture and > failure mode effects mitigation. > > I assumed that Z11 was correct. I was only asking about the reasoning > about when to use fuses for my own education. > > > Very good. > > > Does 8AWG wire qualify as "fat" in this context of circuit protection? > > > yes > > > I will have an O-340 from LyCon as my engine. > > > Do you have an otherwise unused vacuum pump > pad? Why not a second alternator? > > > My load analysis is attached to this e-mail. > > > Do your injectors really draw 1.5A average or > 6A for the suite of injectors? > > > Joe, I was not asking about a second battery to backup my primary battery. > I was asking about it as a way to extend my flight time in the Alternator > Out situation. With my EFI my ALT OUT cruise power consumption is 20A so a > 7 pound ETX1200 battery would give me approximately an hour of flight time, > which should work for most of my needs. I was just exploring what it would > take to add in a second battery for certain higher risk trips over water or > mountains so I would not have to carry that extra weight all of the time. > > > An pad-driven alternator would easily carry > your anticipated system loads, have a lower > cost of ownership than a second battery. The > 'e bus' goes away. Would recommend a battery > bus that would support all vital engine functions > so that the panel could be made 'max dark' without > killing the engine. > > We would sure like to see a schematic > of this system. Schematics are the fundamental > language for FFA (Function and Failure Analysis). > It appears that you have a 50A b-lead breaker > on the panel? That hasn't been done on most TC > aircraft in decades . . . it's not illustrated > on any z-figure. > > You speak to an 'essential bus' but with > no narrative or schematic as to how this > bus gets isolated for energy management > in an alternator-out condition? > > > Bob . . . > Bob, I can't directly address your Q about individual injector current draw. They tend to 'peak' at each trigger, but duty cycle varies wildly, and how they're operated varies wildly among control techniques (true timed injection which is rare in a/c vs 'batch fire' vs 'semi-sequential' vs ??). But the alt engine guys have been flying auto-style electronic engine control for a lot longer than the Lyc guys, and common numbers by numerous guys flying this type of *system* for a high pressure fuel pump, injectors, igniters, and computer would be 12-15 amps; likely leaning toward the high side of that spread. I have a friend who's a retired P-W engineer who tested his system in flight for battery-only operation. With a healthy PC680, IIRC he flew for ~40 minutes before seeing voltage drop to near 'discharge state' before bringing the alternator back on line. I don't recall what power setting he was using for the test. Obviously, operating at higher power levels requires more energy for the various electronic bits. Charlie ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:25:02 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram From: "markfw" Bob, My design goals for Alt Out operations are approximately 1 hour of flight time to get on the ground while continuing use of my EFI, EFIS, EIS 1 radio and the transponder. As an overarching design constraint, I am LSA so I am weight sensitive in all of my decisions. I am using surface mounted fuse blocks on the cockpit quarter panels where I can see if there has been a blown fuse because an LED lights up. No I don't intend to change them in flight, but I want to know. I have a space constraint for mounting another fuse block, so I decided to use C/B's. However, I will say that I went back and forth on this and this morning I actually moved them onto the existing fuse block rather than keeping some spare circuits. Weight is about a wash either way. It's clear that I don't understand the difference between an E-Bus and an Endurance Bus. What I am calling an E-Bus is a bus fed by the battery that can power my essential electrical needs (approximately 20 amps) for an hour. My main Bus is on a switch so I can dump all of my non-essential loads easily. The Alt Field is on a separate switch, so I would also turn that off. I have attached my current schematic which is A WORK IN PROGRESS (wire gauges are wrong, no grounds, no sheet for the EFI itself, etc). I do plan to submit it here when I am happy with it. However it certainly is tough for you to give me advice without any idea at all about what I am up to. Since I am very weight conscious I decided early on that I would use the light weight ECI accessory pad which does not provide a vacuum or prop governor. This saves 1.5 pounds. The B&C SD-20 spine driven alternator is 5.75 pounds, plus creates space issues for me under the cowl. I thought that I would rather spend that 7.25 pounds on a spare battery if my mission needed it. The injectors draw 1.5 - 2.0 amps each depending on load. The vendor recommends 5 amp fuses. The 50 amp b-lead breaker is simply copied from what Cubcrafters does on their certified Carbon Cubs. What is the right answer? An ANL fuse somewhere? Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493840#493840 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/n36cx_edraw_circuit_diagram__v1_159.pdf ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:24 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Desulfators and Lithium At 03:44 PM 12/14/2019, you wrote: > >I just had pointed out to me a study that lends something to the discussion: >https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318890311_Impact_of_Pulse_Voltage_as_Desulfator_to_Improve_Automotive_Lead_Acid_Battery_Capacity > >I can't say that it appears definitive, nor particularly >quantitative, but at least attempted to study the subject. Unfortunately, it's VERY un-quantitative . . . and short on illumination. "Pulse" charging techniques have been proposed and sorta demonstrated for decades. I can recall conversations I had with local fellow ham-operators back in the 60's. This particular article takes a little different approach. Instead of 'hammering' the pesky lead-sulfate crystals with a 'high' energy pulse, this article appears to claim that a simple 50% duty cycle charging protocol that 'respects the manufacturer's specifications'. The repetition rate can be 'user programmed' at any frequency from 2 to 6 Mhz to ostensibly coordinated with a 'resonance frequency' . . . thereafter undefined. No mention of the experiment's test frequency or how an optimized test frequency can be determined. The paper uses the word 'capacity' 29 times yet never describes how capacity improvements are quantified. The paper speaks to open circuit voltage measurements which are loosely correlated to state of charge but say nothing about improvements in deliverable Joules or Watt-Seconds by a rejuvenated battery. The by-lines for these authors don't indicate their pedigree . . . so are they students? If students, then their teachers should be duct-taped to a chalk-board and flogged with their own slide-rule. My kiddo's 7th grade science fair project and presentation demonstrated more science than this paper. Nothing to see here . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:04 PM PST US From: Sebastien Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ATO vs ATC fuses I like the look and smaller size of the mini fuses and assumed that there would be a plentiful supply of fuse blocks for them but came up empty online. I've seen a couple aircraft with fuse blocks for mini fuses though so they are out there. While looking around I found plenty of marine fuse blocks with ground busses included which seems like a great idea. https://www.ebay.ca/itm/12V-12-WAY-Fuse-Block-Box-Holder-ATC-ATO-Blade-Garavan-Marine-Dual-Battery-CA/254336429525?hash=item3b37a1edd5:g:A2YAAOSwk8xdEc6G Unfortunately they are all for fork connectors and I really like the idea of tabs for ease of maintenance under the panel. Maybe it's time B & C updated their offerings in this area? A fuse block with LEDs to indicate blown fuses with a forest of tabs built in? On Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 11:58 Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 08:07 PM 12/13/2019, you wrote: > > Interesting question. At the same time I'd like to ask if there is any > downside to using mini fuses. > > > Not aware of any pre-fabricated panels > for the mini fuses. You're looking for ease > of installation and robustness. The fuseblocks > eliminate breaker panels and bus bars while > allowing the distribution to be mounted out > of sight/mind. > > Any 'savings' for down-sizing to mini fuses > would be small. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:06 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ATO vs ATC fuses >While looking around I found plenty of marine fuse blocks with >ground busses included which seems like a great idea. Not recommended . . . Your system grounds need to be patterned after Z-15 examples . . . not scattered around on a variety of fuse blocks. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:38 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram From: "markfw" Bob, You were right. My spreadsheet numbers (and my memory of the correct numbers) were wrong. The range of energy consumption per injection according to their vendor is .5 - 1.5 amps depending on load. My load (5 gph) is at the bottom of his range. It doesnt change my design, but I have to eat humble pie. Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493845#493845 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:26 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Next generation wig-wag controller for LED lamps From: "fvfdums" oh,it is a good idea.Good ideas are just for everyone to share. -------------------------------------------------------------------- My stepper motor website:skysmotor.com (https://www.skysmotor.com/) - Machinery Design ? - ? Stepper Moter Development "Necessity is the mother of invention." - Author unknown. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493846#493846 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:45 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM From: "Argonaut36" Bob, Many thanks for your comments and suggestions. My airplane has a standard certificate and I cannot fly with a model of voltage regulator different from the one that I have in the airplane now. I could do tests on the ground with another voltage regulator, but I dont see the benefit, because my alternator works normally on the ground, except after landing when the engine is hot (well above the temperatures that I see in flight). At this point I would rule out the alternator, because I had similar problems with my previous alternator. Two bad alternators is possible, but not very likely. This leaves the voltage regulator and the wiring. I checked the wires in the engine compartment (easily accessible) and replaced a section that was not in good conditions. I also installed an additional ground line for the alternator following the instructions of the alternator manufacturer. I did not check the wiring in the cabin, but that wiring seems to be working fine when the engine is at normal temperature and it should not see higher temperature when the engine is hot. Any additional thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493851#493851 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:38 PM PST US From: Sebastien Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ATO vs ATC fuses Actually Bob Z-15 was what I was thinking of. Each of those fuse blocks has 12 fused power and 12 ground terminals. One block would be the endurance bus / avionics ground bus and the other block would be the main bus / panel ground bus. Although doing it that way I would connect the two ground busses with a braided cable instead of the 5x20awg on the diagram. Why does Z-15 have 5x20awg instead of a bonding strap? In any case, if I do rewire the plane I think I'll stick to the fuse blocks with tabs instead of screws and a single forest of tabs for the grounds (none of my avionics would need a separate ground bus and I don't have any firewall forward small grounds so only one ground bus). On Sun, Dec 15, 2019 at 6:49 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > While looking around I found plenty of marine fuse blocks with ground > busses included which seems like a great idea. > > > Not recommended . . . > Your system grounds need to be patterned after > Z-15 examples . . . not scattered around on a variety > of fuse blocks. > > > Bob . . . > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.