Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:59 PM - Re: One battery/two alternators *E-fuel injection engine* z-diagram (Charlie England)
2. 06:45 PM - The next generation of Z12 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 07:25 PM - Re: The next generation of Z12 (user9253)
4. 07:47 PM - Re: Re: The next generation of Z12 (don van santen)
5. 07:48 PM - Re: The next generation of Z12 (Pat Little)
6. 07:58 PM - Re: The next generation of Z12 (Sebastien)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: One battery/two alternators *E-fuel injection engine* |
z-diagram
Hi Bob,
When you're done with revising Z-12, how about taking a swing at a new
diagram specifically for engines using automotive style fuel injection
controllers? Current demand for just the engine in these systems run in the
12-15A range, due to extra power needed to run the high pressure fuel pump
and the injectors, in addition to the ignition.
Largely because of the above, two alts with their unlimited endurance (and
lighter weight) seem to make more sense than multiple batteries. With many
alternative engines, we also have the option of installing two identical
alts, eliminating the need for an endurance buss.
Given the above, and with the (somewhat aspirational) goal of having
'switchology' come as close as possible to traditional a/c (for muscle
memory safety in stressful situations), I visualize a separate engine buss
with everything except the starter controlled by a high current switch, and
a dedicated alternator feeding the buss. Once 'alive', it should operate
much like a P-mag equipped Lyc, continuing to make its own electrical power
regardless of airframe status. A buss tie switch would allow powering the
engine buss from the a/c buss if there's an alternator failure, and allow
powering the a/c buss from the engine's alternator if the a/c alternator
fails.
The basic architecture should allow the same emergency switching as
conventional a/c: the entire a/c could be powered down without affecting
the engine's operation.
With more and more E-dependent engines flying now, I hope this architecture
idea will get some attention.
Charlie
Message 2
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| Subject: | The next generation of Z12 |
At 10:33 PM 12/21/2019, you wrote:
>
>On 12/20/2019 7:15 PM, user9253 wrote:
>>
>>So as mentioned in my post of a few mintues
>>ago, I think I'm going to revise Z-12 to (1)
>>remove the Endurance Bus and (2) replace the
>>standby regulator with something simple and
>>cheap.
> > Great idea Bob. Simpler is better.
>>Many VFR sport planes do not even need a standby alternator.
>>Now if we could just convince builders to NOT install an avionics switch.
>>
>>--------
>>Joe Gores
>
>I'm sold on both counts. I'm turning my traditional 6-pack VFR
>GlaStar into an all-glass IFR plane and I'm wiring it using Z-12
>with no endurance bus and no avionics master. I repurposed its hole
>for the pitot heat switch.
We've been pondering a relatively new
phenomenon that may well justify keeping
the 'special' bus . . .
The e-bus came about because it seemed
elegant to have a plan-b for battery
only operations that minimize loads on
the battery while eliminating contactor
loads on an SD8. Obviously, 'minimizing
loads' in a dual-alternator system
has little or no value assuming the
standby alternator will carry all
of the plan-b loads.
If the s/b alternator in Z-12 meets
those requirements, then we're no longer
concerned with the ENDURANCE bus.
In recent years, we've seen a new constellation
of flight instruments and avionics with greatly
EXPANDED functionality but with LOWER energy
demands from ship's power . . . except . . .
The critters like to 'reboot' if the bus
voltage is depressed below some value . . .
a condition generally limited to a few tens
of milliseconds during starter motor inrush.
The new condition has been discussed and
numerous solutions proposed and some
tried. Some systems feature a small,
support battery wired to support vulnerable
devices during engine cranking. A variety
of control protocols have been considered
The simplest and most elegant solution seems
to be the inclusion of a dc/dc up-converter
set up for an output of 14 or so volts. This
device is diode-ored to supply power to the
'brown out bus' a few milliseconds before
the starter contactor closes . . . and is
kept in the loop as long as the starter button
is engaged.
Emacs!
A excerpt schematic shown here. Obviously, this
requires a more robust starter push-button. Two
diodes in a bridge rectifier provide the diode-or
function for powering from either the MAIN bus
or the brown-out booster.
Since the dedicated special function bus exists,
the builder COULD carry the legacy alternate
alternate feed path from the battery onto the
brown-out bus.
Of all the philosophies we've discussed, this on
seems the most elegant. I'm going to incorporate
it into the next revision to Z12.
To recap:
(1) the need for an Endurance Bus goes away
'cause the second source of engine driven
power is sufficiently robust to manage
most necessary loads during loss of main
alternator.
(2) The legacy auto switching feature for the standby
alternator serves no practical purpose. In
fact, there's no reason that the s/b alternator
couldn't be paired with the least expensive
of regulators. (a) the probability of ever
needing it is low. (b) all of the warning and
adjustability features of a primo alternator
controller will not add to the utility of
having the high-energy source available
for perhaps a few hours after loss of main
alternator.
(3) For airplanes fitted with brown-out sensitive
appliances, an independently support bus
driven with solid state voltage boost offers
compact, low cost of ownership and maintenance
free alternatives to any form of battery.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: The next generation of Z12 |
The relay needs to be electrically interlocked with the start button to
prevent the DC-DC booster from supplying current to the starter motor.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493942#493942
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: The next generation of Z12 |
The TCW stand by battery, a little expensive, does the same thing with no
other system changes. It also is able to keep two Advanced Flight EFIS'S
alive for 30 plus minutes in case of contactor issues.
On Sun, Dec 22, 2019, 19:30 user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The relay needs to be electrically interlocked with the start button to
> prevent the DC-DC booster from supplying current to the starter motor.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493942#493942
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: The next generation of Z12 |
Bob, do you have a part number for the brown-out booster? I'm curious about
its characteristics (e.g., what's the highest voltage it might produce if
the brown-out isn't so bad). Also, if the bus depression is a few tens of
milliseconds, might a big hefty capacitor do the trick (charged from the
main bus, not the starter feed)?
On Sun, Dec 22, 2019 at 7:52 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 10:33 PM 12/21/2019, you wrote:
>
>
> On 12/20/2019 7:15 PM, user9253 wrote:
>
>
> So as mentioned in my post of a few mintues
> ago, I think I'm going to revise Z-12 to (1)
> remove the Endurance Bus and (2) replace the
> standby regulator with something simple and
> cheap.
>
>
> > Great idea Bob. Simpler is better.
>
>
> Many VFR sport planes do not even need a standby alternator.
> Now if we could just convince builders to NOT install an avionics switch.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> I'm sold on both counts. I'm turning my traditional 6-pack VFR GlaStar
> into an all-glass IFR plane and I'm wiring it using Z-12 with no endurance
> bus and no avionics master. I repurposed its hole for the pitot heat switch.
>
>
> We've been pondering a relatively new
> phenomenon that may well justify keeping
> the 'special' bus . . .
>
> The e-bus came about because it seemed
> elegant to have a plan-b for battery
> only operations that minimize loads on
> the battery while eliminating contactor
> loads on an SD8. Obviously, 'minimizing
> loads' in a dual-alternator system
> has little or no value assuming the
> standby alternator will carry all
> of the plan-b loads.
>
> If the s/b alternator in Z-12 meets
> those requirements, then we're no longer
> concerned with the ENDURANCE bus.
>
> In recent years, we've seen a new constellation
> of flight instruments and avionics with greatly
> EXPANDED functionality but with LOWER energy
> demands from ship's power . . . except . . .
>
> The critters like to 'reboot' if the bus
> voltage is depressed below some value . . .
> a condition generally limited to a few tens
> of milliseconds during starter motor inrush.
>
> The new condition has been discussed and
> numerous solutions proposed and some
> tried. Some systems feature a small,
> support battery wired to support vulnerable
> devices during engine cranking. A variety
> of control protocols have been considered
>
> The simplest and most elegant solution seems
> to be the inclusion of a dc/dc up-converter
> set up for an output of 14 or so volts. This
> device is diode-ored to supply power to the
> 'brown out bus' a few milliseconds before
> the starter contactor closes . . . and is
> kept in the loop as long as the starter button
> is engaged.
>
> [image: Emacs!]
> A excerpt schematic shown here. Obviously, this
> requires a more robust starter push-button. Two
> diodes in a bridge rectifier provide the diode-or
> function for powering from either the MAIN bus
> or the brown-out booster.
>
> Since the dedicated special function bus exists,
> the builder COULD carry the legacy alternate
> alternate feed path from the battery onto the
> brown-out bus.
>
> Of all the philosophies we've discussed, this on
> seems the most elegant. I'm going to incorporate
> it into the next revision to Z12.
>
> To recap:
>
> (1) the need for an Endurance Bus goes away
> 'cause the second source of engine driven
> power is sufficiently robust to manage
> most necessary loads during loss of main
> alternator.
>
> (2) The legacy auto switching feature for the standby
> alternator serves no practical purpose. In
> fact, there's no reason that the s/b alternator
> couldn't be paired with the least expensive
> of regulators. (a) the probability of ever
> needing it is low. (b) all of the warning and
> adjustability features of a primo alternator
> controller will not add to the utility of
> having the high-energy source available
> for perhaps a few hours after loss of main
> alternator.
>
> (3) For airplanes fitted with brown-out sensitive
> appliances, an independently support bus
> driven with solid state voltage boost offers
> compact, low cost of ownership and maintenance
> free alternatives to any form of battery.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: The next generation of Z12 |
I completely agree with (1), (2), and (3) Bob. All would be an improvement
to our current systems.
As an aside, I have not had any problems with EFIS systems rebooting during
engine start. It seems that Dynon, GRT, Garmin, all now take care of this
internally since they are all expected to keep working during engine start
since they are the engine instruments. With IFR aircraft though, it is nice
to be able to program the GNC before engine start, and I've lost the
programming a few times during engine start. Very frustrating, especially
since even saving the flight plan doesn't yield useful results as many
departures and arrivals will not load properly from a saved flight plan. On
these aircraft brown-out protection for the GNCs would be very helpful.
Also of possible interest, on the way to Oshkosh last year the backup
battery for our PFD starting giving error messages. The builder commented
that we were down to only 3 sources of power for it (2 alternators and the
ship's battery). To test the theory I switched to the backup alternator
(SD-8) and it was completely dead, which I said wasn't possible. At
destination the builder had a look under the panel and confirmed that a
wire had vibrated loose.
On Sun, Dec 22, 2019 at 6:52 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 10:33 PM 12/21/2019, you wrote:
>
>
> On 12/20/2019 7:15 PM, user9253 wrote:
>
>
> So as mentioned in my post of a few mintues
> ago, I think I'm going to revise Z-12 to (1)
> remove the Endurance Bus and (2) replace the
> standby regulator with something simple and
> cheap.
>
>
> > Great idea Bob. Simpler is better.
>
>
> Many VFR sport planes do not even need a standby alternator.
> Now if we could just convince builders to NOT install an avionics switch.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> I'm sold on both counts. I'm turning my traditional 6-pack VFR GlaStar
> into an all-glass IFR plane and I'm wiring it using Z-12 with no endurance
> bus and no avionics master. I repurposed its hole for the pitot heat switch.
>
>
> We've been pondering a relatively new
> phenomenon that may well justify keeping
> the 'special' bus . . .
>
> The e-bus came about because it seemed
> elegant to have a plan-b for battery
> only operations that minimize loads on
> the battery while eliminating contactor
> loads on an SD8. Obviously, 'minimizing
> loads' in a dual-alternator system
> has little or no value assuming the
> standby alternator will carry all
> of the plan-b loads.
>
> If the s/b alternator in Z-12 meets
> those requirements, then we're no longer
> concerned with the ENDURANCE bus.
>
> In recent years, we've seen a new constellation
> of flight instruments and avionics with greatly
> EXPANDED functionality but with LOWER energy
> demands from ship's power . . . except . . .
>
> The critters like to 'reboot' if the bus
> voltage is depressed below some value . . .
> a condition generally limited to a few tens
> of milliseconds during starter motor inrush.
>
> The new condition has been discussed and
> numerous solutions proposed and some
> tried. Some systems feature a small,
> support battery wired to support vulnerable
> devices during engine cranking. A variety
> of control protocols have been considered
>
> The simplest and most elegant solution seems
> to be the inclusion of a dc/dc up-converter
> set up for an output of 14 or so volts. This
> device is diode-ored to supply power to the
> 'brown out bus' a few milliseconds before
> the starter contactor closes . . . and is
> kept in the loop as long as the starter button
> is engaged.
>
> [image: Emacs!]
> A excerpt schematic shown here. Obviously, this
> requires a more robust starter push-button. Two
> diodes in a bridge rectifier provide the diode-or
> function for powering from either the MAIN bus
> or the brown-out booster.
>
> Since the dedicated special function bus exists,
> the builder COULD carry the legacy alternate
> alternate feed path from the battery onto the
> brown-out bus.
>
> Of all the philosophies we've discussed, this on
> seems the most elegant. I'm going to incorporate
> it into the next revision to Z12.
>
> To recap:
>
> (1) the need for an Endurance Bus goes away
> 'cause the second source of engine driven
> power is sufficiently robust to manage
> most necessary loads during loss of main
> alternator.
>
> (2) The legacy auto switching feature for the standby
> alternator serves no practical purpose. In
> fact, there's no reason that the s/b alternator
> couldn't be paired with the least expensive
> of regulators. (a) the probability of ever
> needing it is low. (b) all of the warning and
> adjustability features of a primo alternator
> controller will not add to the utility of
> having the high-energy source available
> for perhaps a few hours after loss of main
> alternator.
>
> (3) For airplanes fitted with brown-out sensitive
> appliances, an independently support bus
> driven with solid state voltage boost offers
> compact, low cost of ownership and maintenance
> free alternatives to any form of battery.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
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