---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/23/19: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:38 AM - Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning (EricWalker) 2. 08:11 AM - Re: The next generation of Z12 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 08:18 AM - Re: The next generation of Z12 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 08:21 AM - Re: Re: The next generation of Z12 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 08:43 AM - Re: The next generation of Z12 (Sebastien) 6. 08:48 AM - Re: The next generation of Z12 (user9253) 7. 09:01 AM - Re: Re: The next generation of Z12 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: The next generation of Z12 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 03:23 PM - Single alternator architecture (Peter Pengilly) 10. 03:36 PM - (don van santen) 11. 03:50 PM - Re: Single alternator architecture (Charlie England) 12. 04:14 PM - EFI current requirements (johnbright) 13. 05:22 PM - Brownout Protection (Paul Millner) 14. 07:35 PM - Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning (johnbright) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:38:12 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning From: "EricWalker" Mechanism of the ruling is deposed for the intelligent individuals. The change of the british assignment writers (https://www.assignmentholic.co.uk/) is brought for the forms for all kids. The role is assigned for the mixing of the laws. Path is issued for the management of the terms. The procedure is allowed for the fitness of the bloggers for the town and its impact for the sizable rules. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493951#493951 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:13 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: The next generation of Z12 At 09:43 PM 12/22/2019, you wrote: >Bob, do you have a part number for the brown-out >booster? I'm curious about its characteristics=C2 >(e.g., what's the highest voltage=C2 it might >produce if the brown-out isn't so bad). Also, if >the bus depression is a few tens of >milliseconds, might a big hefty capacitor do the >trick (charged from the main bus, not the starter feed)? It's an off-the-shelf product off eBay, banggood, amazon. Sized to the task. It's an adjustable, set-and-forget, step up power supply. Here's an exemplar device. https://tinyurl.com/sf8wwob Note: lets not run out and buy one of THESE devices before we do some bench testing. . . from the constellation of candidates, there WILL be an entirely suitable device but I can't tell you yet that it's THIS one . . . Capacitors have been used successfully in cases where but brownout bus is lightly loaded . . . but some builder's plans called for more snort. Further, the capacitor boost device called for significant beat-n- bash on the bench to assemble a number of components from Digikey et. als. The upside of the boost-converters is that they are very nearly plug-n-play and come in a variety of sizes wherein virtually all brown-out protections can be addressed. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:46 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: The next generation of Z12 At 09:57 PM 12/22/2019, you wrote: >I completely agree with (1), (2), and (3) Bob. All would be an >improvement to our current systems. > >As an aside, I have not had any problems with EFIS systems rebooting >during engine start. It seems that Dynon, GRT, Garmin, all now take >care of this internally since they are all expected to keep working >during engine start since they are the engine instruments. With IFR >aircraft though, it is nice to be able to program the GNC before >engine start, and I've lost the programming a few times during >engine start. Very frustrating, especially since even saving the >flight plan doesn't yield useful results as many departures and >arrivals will not load properly from a saved flight plan. On these >aircraft brown-out protection for the GNCs would be very helpful. Good input. I'm pleased that the OEM's may be stepping up to the WHOLE spirit and intent of DO160 qualification testing. We've been thinking along similar concerns. The alternate feed for the BO BUS will stay in place but labeled CLEARANCE DELIVERY. It will power up the BO BUS with the rest of the airplane stone cold. This will facilitate preflight clearance delivery, smart-whizzy programming, etc. while protecting any device vulnerable to start-up brown-out. I will have a preliminary update to Z12 to share soon. Just noticed that its last update was 14 years ago. (A) time flies when you're having fun and (B) things change . . . quite often driven by the natural evolution of products and processes. >Also of possible interest, on the way to Oshkosh last year the >backup battery for our PFD starting giving error messages. The >builder commented that we were down to only 3 sources of power for >it (2 alternators and the ship's battery). To test the theory I >switched to the backup alternator (SD-8) and it was completely dead, >which I said wasn't possible. At destination the builder had a look >under the panel and confirmed that a wire had vibrated loose. Which is why one has preflight check lists or did he state that the alternator passed pre-flight and the break occurred on THIS leg of the flight? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:21:36 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: The next generation of Z12 At 09:24 PM 12/22/2019, you wrote: > >The relay needs to be electrically interlocked with the start button to >prevent the DC-DC booster from supplying current to the starter motor. You lost me . . . how would that happen? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:13 AM PST US From: Sebastien Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: The next generation of Z12 It's a day VFR only ship so after regular checks during Phase 1 I basically forgot about it. It should be added to the checklist. On Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 08:23 Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 09:57 PM 12/22/2019, you wrote: > > I completely agree with (1), (2), and (3) Bob. All would be an improvement > to our current systems. > > As an aside, I have not had any problems with EFIS systems rebooting > during engine start. It seems that Dynon, GRT, Garmin, all now take care of > this internally since they are all expected to keep working during engine > start since they are the engine instruments. With IFR aircraft though, it > is nice to be able to program the GNC before engine start, and I've lost > the programming a few times during engine start. Very frustrating, > especially since even saving the flight plan doesn't yield useful results > as many departures and arrivals will not load properly from a saved flight > plan. On these aircraft brown-out protection for the GNCs would be very > helpful. > > > Good input. I'm pleased that the OEM's may > be stepping up to the WHOLE spirit and intent > of DO160 qualification testing. > > We've been thinking along similar concerns. > The alternate feed for the BO BUS will stay > in place but labeled CLEARANCE DELIVERY. > > It will power up the BO BUS with the rest > of the airplane stone cold. This will facilitate > preflight clearance delivery, smart-whizzy > programming, etc. while protecting any device > vulnerable to start-up brown-out. > > I will have a preliminary update to Z12 to share > soon. Just noticed that its last update was > 14 years ago. (A) time flies when you're having > fun and (B) things change . . . quite often > driven by the natural evolution of products > and processes. > > > Also of possible interest, on the way to Oshkosh last year the backup > battery for our PFD starting giving error messages. The builder commented > that we were down to only 3 sources of power for it (2 alternators and the > ship's battery). To test the theory I switched to the backup alternator > (SD-8) and it was completely dead, which I said wasn't possible. At > destination the builder had a look under the panel and confirmed that a > wire had vibrated loose. > > > Which is why one has preflight check lists > or did he state that the alternator passed > pre-flight and the break occurred on THIS > leg of the flight? > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:48:07 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: The next generation of Z12 From: "user9253" > You lost me . . . how would that happen? If the pilot inadvertently leaves the brownout relay switch turned on, then the relay contacts provide a current path between the DC-DC booster and starter motor via diode, brownout bus, relay contacts, main battery bus, battery, battery contactor, starter contactor, starter motor, not to mention other aircraft loads. To make the circuit foolproof, the relay coil circuit should be wired in series with the normally closed half of a DPDT start push button. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493959#493959 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:01:11 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: The next generation of Z12 At 09:24 PM 12/22/2019, you wrote: > >The relay needs to be electrically interlocked with the start button to >prevent the DC-DC booster from supplying current to the starter motor. You lost me . . . how would that happen? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:48 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: The next generation of Z12 At 10:47 AM 12/23/2019, you wrote: > > > > You lost me . . . how would that happen? > >If the pilot inadvertently leaves the brownout relay switch turned >on, then the > relay contacts provide a current path between the DC-DC booster and starter >motor via diode, brownout bus, relay contacts, main battery bus, battery, >battery contactor, starter contactor, starter motor, not to mention other >aircraft loads. To make the circuit foolproof, the relay coil >circuit should be >wired in series with the normally closed half of a DPDT start push button. > >-------- >Joe Gores Good catch . . . I've published the P1 edition of Rev N to Z-12 at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z12NP1.pdf Per Joe's catch, I've routed the brownout booster power through normally closed contacts of the CLEARANCE DELIVERY relay. So if the switch is inadvertently left closed during start, there will be no back-feed of boost power to the rest of the system. The worst thing that happens is that some electro-whizzies may reboot . . . Got to quit doing 'fun stuff' and get onto Xmas preparations. With our respective, extended families the next week or so will be really busy. Hope you all are going to have as much fun as I am! Merry Christmas . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:23:58 PM PST US From: "Peter Pengilly" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Single alternator architecture Does anyone have any experience of using a small 1Ah battery as a brown-out booster? In my last aircraft I implemented an endurance bus with the main bus divided in half by a large diode. The electrical system was constructed to provide around an hours' flying time in IMC after alternator failure. When my alternator quit 1000 miles from home I flew (VFR) for 6.5 hours and 3 engine starts on the battery, although the 3rd engine start (after 6 hours) was a little sluggish. My conclusion was the endurance bus was somewhat redundant as I load shed more aggressively than the endurance bus did. I guess an alternative conclusion is that I put too much on the endurance bus. If I did not have an e-bus I would retain the switch to connect the battery directly to the busbar (shedding the main contactor after engine start) as it also allows the field current to be switched off with the master (no separate alternator switch). When operating normally there was no brown out during start as the EFIS had an internal battery, but I did wait until after start-up to switch on the GPS. I had considered including a small lead-acid battery to keep all the avionics on-line during starting but never did as I flew IFR only occasionally. I have now just bought a new (to me) aircraft that suffers from brown out during starting. The architecture is a little curious in that it has an Exp Bus 2 (ugh) and routes power to the engine monitor (VM-1000) through the 'Avionics' switch. As soon as the starter button is pressed the VM1000 quits, which is not ideal. I'm once again thinking about a small 1Ah lead-acid as an anti brown-out measure, for example an LC-R121R3PG. These batteries weigh around 1.3 lb, will give three amps for around 10 minutes and are relatively inexpensive. I also have several available each year as they are removed from DA42s my company maintains. Once I have moved to a c/b based system is there much of a downside to using a small battery as a brown-out booster (and changing it out every year)? It would probably be connected along the lines of Z-35. This is to hold up the VM1000 and also a modern GPS - such as a GPS175 - once installed. Can anyone point to an inexpensive "brown-out booster" that I could use instead of a battery? Regards, Peter ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:59 PM PST US From: don van santen Subject: AeroElectric-List: Peter , I use the TCW 6ah stand by in my RV7. Works perfectly. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:50:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Single alternator architecture From: Charlie England On 12/23/2019 5:21 PM, Peter Pengilly wrote: > > Does anyone have any experience of using a small 1Ah battery as a > brown-out booster? > > In my last aircraft I implemented an endurance bus with the main bus > divided in half by a large diode. The electrical system was > constructed to provide around an hours flying time in IMC after > alternator failure. When my alternator quit 1000 miles from home I > flew (VFR) for 6.5 hours and 3 engine starts on the battery, although > the 3^rd engine start (after 6 hours) was a little sluggish. My > conclusion was the endurance bus was somewhat redundant as I load shed > more aggressively than the endurance bus did. I guess an alternative > conclusion is that I put too much on the endurance bus. If I did not > have an e-bus I would retain the switch to connect the battery > directly to the busbar (shedding the main contactor after engine > start) as it also allows the field current to be switched off with the > master (no separate alternator switch). > > When operating normally there was no brown out during start as the > EFIS had an internal battery, but I did wait until after start-up to > switch on the GPS. I had considered including a small lead-acid > battery to keep all the avionics on-line during starting but never did > as I flew IFR only occasionally. > > I have now just bought a new (to me) aircraft that suffers from brown > out during starting. The architecture is a little curious in that it > has an Exp Bus 2 (ugh) and routes power to the engine monitor > (VM-1000) through the Avionics switch. As soon as the starter button > is pressed the VM1000 quits, which is not ideal. Im once again > thinking about a small 1Ah lead-acid as an anti brown-out measure, for > example an LC-R121R3PG. These batteries weigh around 1.3 lb, will give > three amps for around 10 minutes and are relatively inexpensive. I > also have several available each year as they are removed from DA42s > my company maintains. > > Once I have moved to a c/b based system is there much of a downside to > using a small battery as a brown-out booster (and changing it out > every year)? It would probably be connected along the lines of Z-35. > This is to hold up the VM1000 and also a modern GPS such as a GPS175 > once installed. Can anyone point to an inexpensive brown-out > booster that I could use instead of a battery? > > Regards, Peter > I've long considered (but never implemented) a system using an equivalent of the 'brownout booster' switching power supply being currently discussed, but feeding its output to a small/medium battery which would then power the 'essential' avionics (an E-bus). The switcher would be adjusted to output typical alternator voltage; 14-14.5V, or the upper edge of whatever is recommended as a safe 'float' voltage for the chosen battery. Avionics would then be isolated from ship's power and be backed up by the battery. When I 1st started contemplating this, the power supplies were prohibitively expensive, but now that they practically pay you to take them off their hands.... Charlie ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:40 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFI current requirements From: "johnbright" For those interested I'm sharing my calculations re dual SDS EM-5-F current requirements for my RV-6A O-360 not yet flying. The file called "Loads... " shows how I arrived at current requirements of 14.6/9.4/8 amps for low altitude/cruise/endurance cruise. The file called "Calculations... " includes how I arrived at injector current. The image called "Pump current... " is where I got 5.25 A at 45 psi. All files are at https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493971#493971 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:48 PM PST US From: Paul Millner Subject: AeroElectric-List: Brownout Protection TCW has a super capacitor widget for just this purpose! http://www.tcwtech.com/ Paul ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:48 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning From: "johnbright" Hi Deems... ref: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LR3_LV_Led_1.jpg Deems Davis wrote: > I would like to subsitute an LED for the Low Voltage bulb that came with > the B&C LR3C-14 . I posed the question to Tim Hedding @ B&C and received > this in response. > > If you use an LED instead of an incandescent lamp, install a 470 - 510 Ohm, > 1/2 Watt, resistor between terminals 3 and 5 of the LR3C-14 (or the SB1B-14) > so that the LED does not glow dimly all of the time. > > Deems Davis # 406 > Engine / Wiring and Panel Stuff > http://deemsrv10.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493975#493975 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.