Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:11 AM - Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent engine (Randy C-GRPY)
2. 08:24 AM - Re: Protecting the fat wires (Randy C-GRPY)
3. 08:34 AM - Re: Protecting the fat wires (Randy C-GRPY)
4. 09:09 AM - Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation (Randy C-GRPY)
5. 09:23 AM - Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent engine (johnbright)
6. 10:11 AM - Re: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 10:23 AM - Re: Re: Protecting the fat wires (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 10:31 AM - Re: Re: Protecting the fat wires (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 10:56 AM - Re: Re: Protecting the fat wires (Charlie England)
10. 11:01 AM - Re: Protecting the fat wires (user9253)
11. 12:38 PM - Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation (Randy C-GRPY)
12. 12:52 PM - Re: Protecting the fat wires (Randy C-GRPY)
13. 12:55 PM - Re: Protecting the fat wires (Randy C-GRPY)
14. 01:57 PM - Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent engine (Randy C-GRPY)
15. 02:14 PM - Re: Protecting the fat wires (user9253)
16. 03:36 PM - Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent engine (johnbright)
17. 11:01 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
18. 11:18 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
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| Subject: | Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent |
engine
johnbright wrote:
>
> Randy C-GRPY wrote:
> >
> >
> > SDS's schematic....
>
>
> Hi Randy,
>
> Some thoughts:
>
> The SDS schematic leaves out a lot of details.
> The ECU select switch is SPDT.
> Since the ECUs are unswitched I don't understand how the crew can preflight whether
the injector relays are working.
> I would not "combine injector power on each bank".
Ya, I have to admit that I don't know anything about the internal wiring of the
relays or the ECU's. In the preflight I plan on cycling each power feed to the
engine bus to make sure that both are working, I'd also cycle the ECU select
between 1,2, and both. The coils and fuel pumps would also be similarly checked.
I would expect that if a relay or an ECU were unservicable that it would
show up with those checks. Do you have a different opinion John?
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| Subject: | Re: Protecting the fat wires |
Thanks Bob. This simplifies things a lot with respect to wiring my aircraft.
What I am understanding is that any of the fat wires, properly sized and installed
on the switched side of the contactor feeding the busses will have an exceedingly
low likelihood of causing problems and don't need any further protection.
What about the fat wires coming directly from the battery to feed an always hot
bus? (The schematic is above) I have such wires for my fuel/ignition system from
two batteries. Does the same principle apply of sizing and installing the
wire appropriately as being good in and of itself or should those be fused close
to the battery?
Thanks!
Randy
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| Subject: | Re: Protecting the fat wires |
ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:
> On 1/31/2020 4:03 PM, Randy C-GRPY wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > user9253 wrote:
> > > The ANL fuse on the downstream side of the aux contactor could blow if the
aux battery is used to crank the engine.
> >
> > Ahhhh.....good point.
> >
> > The contactors are going to be next to the batteries. With one battery in
the tail there would be a large wire running to the firewall. What I am understanding
from you is that that wire is protected by the contactor and no further
fusing is required.
> >
> > How about the hot wires from the unswitched side of the contactors feeding
the engine bus? Would you protect that close to the battery?
> >
> > I appreciate your input.
> > Randy
> > My choice is to use a fuselink soldered & heatshrunk onto the battery
> >
>
> end of the wire feeding the engine bus. Fuselinks have been quite common
> in the automotive world to protect things like alternator B leads. An
> ANL would achieve the same thing, for more money & extra failure points.
> Protecting the wire makes good sense; I just wanted the minimum risk of
> a 'false positive' circuit interruption.
>
> Charlie
Initially I had those wires going to a breaker which I think would essentially
accomplish what you suggest. I liked the idea of actually seeing that there is
a problem by witnessing the tripped breaker. A fellow builder who is also an
electrical engineer pointed out that if a short occurred somewhere between the
breaker and battery in that setup, that there would be no way of turning off
the electrons. There are a lot of examples in Bob's diagrams where those hot
wires are * as "6 in or less" presumably to guard against just such a scenario.
Does that not apply to the long runs supplying the bus which are much much
longer than 6"?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494573#494573
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| Subject: | Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
>
> > Good day Bob.
> >
> > I watched your videos with great interest related to that accident report.
It was my understanding that the diode on the the feed between the two sides
was what led to the current hogging that happened and which ultimately caused
the whole thing to come crashing down. With Z-14, if I am understanding correctly,
should not be an issue since the two sides are also isolated. Is this
correct?
>
> Z-14 (and all other z-figures depicting dc power
> feeds to ignition, fuel, injectors, etc.) show
> INDEPENDENT feeds to all such devices. In other
> words, redundant accessories never share hardware
> once the electrons leave the source through
> single feeder protection.
>
> Indeed, the guest-engineer on the project
> used Z-14 as a basis for a 'recommended'
> power distribution system that powered
> a full-up compliment of Garmin glass
> on the panel. In his published architecture,
> he replaced the cross-feed contator with
> a fat diode and ran one ignition from the
> main battery . . . the second ignition from
> the aux battery. But he failed to describe
> a recommended operating protocol for the
> two alternators.
>
> However, in the accident aircraft, fuse
> protected feeders from each battery was
> brought through diodes to a common bus
> whereupon power was distributed out through
> breakers to the two ignition systems.
>
> Bad deal.
>
> First, there was no way that loss of one
> battery bus fuse could be detected in
> pre-flight . . . which was the case leading
> up to this accident. Having the aux alternator
> off line caused the aux battery ignition feeder
> voltage to be LOWER than the main battery
> by approx .7 volts. This caused the main battery
> ignition fuse to carry the load for BOTH
> ignitions causing failure of the main fuse
> followed by the aux fuse hours later.
>
> Further, a fault in one system would have
> taken out BOTH fuses and killed both
> systems.
>
> If he had left out the diodes, common bus
> and the do-nothing breakers . . . that ship
> would probably be flying okay today.
>
> Lessons learned . . . diodes are handy
> critters for lots of applications but
> are SELDOM warranted in power distribution
> systems. I've used them in the normal feed
> path to an endurance bus in several figures
> and in Z-19 where a SINGLE ECU and FUEL
> PUMP configuration are provided two power
> sources through independent switches.
>
> Fiddle the architecture with caution . . .
>
> The latest Figure Z-12 . . .
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z12NP1.pdf (http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z12NP1.pdf)
>
> artfully crafted is as robust as anyone
> should need in an OBAM aircraft . . .
> if you really gotta have dual batteries,
> add Z-30.
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
Thanks for the detailed explanation Bob.
Most builders powering the SDS system are doing it off of a single bus from two
independent batteries as per manufacturers recommendation. From what you say
above, this is similar to Z-19 and diodes are justified in this scenario.
In my plane I do have a cross-tie and not a diode. The normal flight configuration
will have X-tie open, thus effectively having two independent systems, each
with an alternator to keep the batteries charged. I hope this accomplishes
what you suggest as being imperative.
Also, normal operation during flight would have both power feeds to the main bus
hot. Is this a bad idea?
Regards
Randy
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| Subject: | Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent |
engine
Randy C-GRPY wrote:
> ...I'd also cycle the ECU select between 1,2, and both... I would expect that
if a relay or an ECU were unservicable that it would show up with those checks.
Do you have a different opinion John?
Hi Randy,
You are using SDS dual ECU for six cylinder with fuel trim. I know the dual four
cylinder wiring because I have the harness and relays. SDS does not show full
schematic details in their install manuals. It looks to me as though the Normal
injector switch position is relays not energized. Suppose the black wire to
the common terminal of the SPDT switch was broken; engine would run in all three
switch positions and pass preflight. Ref attached snip from "dual6ecurev3.pdf".
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F
<a href="https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K">Dual
Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F</a>
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
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Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dual6ecurev3_snip_845.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation |
>Yes, I understand that it wasn't fused with a big enough
>breaker/fuse. Bob did another video in that series though that poo
>pooed that design even with properly sized fuses. I didn't
>understand why he felt it was a bad design since it is easy to check
>both feeds to the bus during the run up.
How would that be done? There were two fuses
from always hot battery busses feeding a common
bus . . . how does one independently verify
existence of energy to for each feeder?
Had they stayed with powering each ignition
from it's own battery, the legacy 'mag check'
would have verified independent functionality
of each system.
> He championed having the ignitions on two completely independent
> busses for which I appreciate the reasons. His design
> doesn't completely transfer over from what I can tell to combined
> ignition/fuel injection systems like SDS. So I guess the question
> that I would have is: Is that diode protected double fed single bus
> still a design waiting to fail if one does his due diligence
> including checking redundant power to the busses during run up and
> properly sizing and fusing the wires?
. . . but what event or combination of events
will bring down power to the injectors if they
were ALL driven from one bus?
N811HB came down because the installed architecture:
(1) failed to recognize that every bus in the
system was ALREADY redundantly powered
(2) failed to maintain independent power sources
for EACH ignition system.
(3) failed to exploit the fact that the engine
would run well on EITHER ignition system.
(4) added features not included in the original
Z14 intended to ADD redundancy when in fact
it NEGATED redundancy already in place.
(5) placed undersized protective devices at
risk for failure for lack of FMEA.
NOTE: I've had builders bend over backwards
to keep both ignition systems operating when
in fact, a perfectly good plan-b for energy
conservation would call for shutting one
ignition system OFF during conditions of
limited energy availability.
So I'll repeat the question. Suppose all SDS
injectors were powered from one bus . . . each
protected by its own fuse. What failure condition
would bring down power necessary to kill the
engine?
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: Protecting the fat wires |
At 10:22 AM 2/1/2020, you wrote:
>
>Thanks Bob. This simplifies things a lot with respect to wiring my aircraft.
>
>What I am understanding is that any of the fat wires, properly sized
>and installed on the switched side of the contactor feeding the
>busses will have an exceedingly low likelihood of causing problems
>and don't need any further protection.
Exactly . . .
>What about the fat wires coming directly from the battery to feed an
>always hot bus? (The schematic is above) I have such wires for my
>fuel/ignition system from two batteries. Does the same principle
>apply of sizing and installing the wire appropriately as being good
>in and of itself or should those be fused close to the battery?
The z-figures mark such feeders
with an (*) meaning 6" or less . . .
or at least as short as practical.
There is nothing wrong with having
battery bus fuse blocks located
adjacent to battery contactors.
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: Protecting the fat wires |
>
>Initially I had those wires going to a breaker which I think would
>essentially accomplish what you suggest. I liked the idea of
>actually seeing that there is a problem by witnessing the tripped breaker.
But what would be your FIRST clue? What
event would prompt you to scan the breaker
panel?
> A fellow builder who is also an electrical engineer pointed out
> that if a short occurred somewhere between the breaker and battery
> in that setup, that there would be no way of turning off the
> electrons. There are a lot of examples in Bob's diagrams where
> those hot wires are * as "6 in or less" presumably to guard against
> just such a scenario. Does that not apply to the long runs
> supplying the bus which are much much longer than 6"?
FAT wires capable of many hundreds of
amps are (1) few in number and (2)
installed with special attention to
low risk for mechanical damage. Less-
than-fat feeders to battery busses are
recommended compliant with design goal (2) by
keeping them short.
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: Protecting the fat wires |
On 2/1/2020 10:33 AM, Randy C-GRPY wrote:
>
>
> ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:
>> On 1/31/2020 4:03 PM, Randy C-GRPY wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> user9253 wrote:
>>>> The ANL fuse on the downstream side of the aux contactor could blow if the
aux battery is used to crank the engine.
>>> Ahhhh.....good point.
>>>
>>> The contactors are going to be next to the batteries. With one battery in
the tail there would be a large wire running to the firewall. What I am understanding
from you is that that wire is protected by the contactor and no further
fusing is required.
>>>
>>> How about the hot wires from the unswitched side of the contactors feeding
the engine bus? Would you protect that close to the battery?
>>>
>>> I appreciate your input.
>>> Randy
>>> My choice is to use a fuselink soldered & heatshrunk onto the battery
>>>
>> end of the wire feeding the engine bus. Fuselinks have been quite common
>> in the automotive world to protect things like alternator B leads. An
>> ANL would achieve the same thing, for more money & extra failure points.
>> Protecting the wire makes good sense; I just wanted the minimum risk of
>> a 'false positive' circuit interruption.
>>
>> Charlie
>
> Initially I had those wires going to a breaker which I think would essentially
accomplish what you suggest. I liked the idea of actually seeing that there
is a problem by witnessing the tripped breaker. A fellow builder who is also
an electrical engineer pointed out that if a short occurred somewhere between
the breaker and battery in that setup, that there would be no way of turning
off the electrons. There are a lot of examples in Bob's diagrams where those
hot wires are * as "6 in or less" presumably to guard against just such a scenario.
Does that not apply to the long runs supplying the bus which are much much
longer than 6"?
>
My understanding of the '6" rule' (like the battery bus, etc) is that
we're keeping the unprotected section of wire quite short, and enduring
that it's in a protected area where it can't be inadvertently brought
into contact with structure or objects that can short out the terminals.
By doing this, we're driving the risk of having a problem with that
unprotected wire to near zero. All wires leaving the bus would be
protected by fuses/breakers.
I'd say that your engineer friend's thoughts were correct. The
conventional alternative would be to place the bus near the battery (6"
rule) and make fused runs to each switch from that bus. My choice for
the engine bus was to mimic the the alternator B lead protection: I
placed a fuse link (you could use an ANL, if desired) at the battery end
of the wire that supplies power to the main ignition switch and
subsequently to the engine bus. The time constant of fuse links & ANLs
are so long that unlike a regular fuse, short-term current spikes from
bringing the bus on line should never fatigue the protection into
failure. The feeder is still protected from catastrophic fault.
My choice exceeds the fairly common practice of limiting always-hot
feeds to around 3 amps. But the feed is only around 30" long, and the
idea is not unprecedented; many older certified a/c (with smaller
electrical systems) had under-seat or baggage compartment batteries with
an always-hot feeder all the way to the instrument panel mounted high
current master switch (no contactor at the battery).
Charlie
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| Subject: | Re: Protecting the fat wires |
Mount 40 amp automotive relays (B&C S8009-1) within 3" of battery positive
posts. Connect 14 AWG between battery positive and relay. This 14 AWG
wire will serve as a fuselink. No fuses needed. Connect the relay output to
the engine bus with 10 AWG. Diodes could be installed per your diagram, but
they are not required. The pilot can control which battery is connected to the
engine bus by turning on one or both relays.
--------
Joe Gores
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| Subject: | Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
>
> > Yes, I understand that it wasn't fused with a big enough breaker/fuse. Bob
did another video in that series though that poo pooed that design even with
properly sized fuses. I didn't understand why he felt it was a bad design since
it is easy to check both feeds to the bus during the run up.
>
> How would that be done? There were two fuses
> from always hot battery busses feeding a common
> bus . . . how does one independently verify
> existence of energy to for each feeder?
>
> Had they stayed with powering each ignition
> from it's own battery, the legacy 'mag check'
> would have verified independent functionality
> of each system.
>
>
> > He championed having the ignitions on two completely independent busses for
which I appreciate the reasons. His design doesn't completely transfer over
from what I can tell to combined ignition/fuel injection systems like SDS.
So I guess the question that I would have is: Is that diode protected double
fed single bus still a design waiting to fail if one does his due diligence including
checking redundant power to the busses during run up and properly sizing
and fusing the wires?
>
> . . . but what event or combination of events
> will bring down power to the injectors if they
> were ALL driven from one bus?
>
> N811HB came down because the installed architecture:
>
> (1) failed to recognize that every bus in the
> system was ALREADY redundantly powered
>
> (2) failed to maintain independent power sources
> for EACH ignition system.
>
> (3) failed to exploit the fact that the engine
> would run well on EITHER ignition system.
>
> (4) added features not included in the original
> Z14 intended to ADD redundancy when in fact
> it NEGATED redundancy already in place.
>
> (5) placed undersized protective devices at
> risk for failure for lack of FMEA.
>
> NOTE: I've had builders bend over backwards
> to keep both ignition systems operating when
> in fact, a perfectly good plan-b for energy
> conservation would call for shutting one
> ignition system OFF during conditions of
> limited energy availability.
>
> So I'll repeat the question. Suppose all SDS
> injectors were powered from one bus . . . each
> protected by its own fuse. What failure condition
> would bring down power necessary to kill the
> engine?
>
>
> Bob . . .
With their design I can't see how either. However, could they have installed a
switch or an appropriately sized relay for each of the main feeds so that each
could be turned on and off in sequence?
As for the SDS, I think we are on the same page but maybe not. You've said that
the bus and the feeding wires properly installed are incredibly reliable. I
think that it is therefore safe to run all of the injectors (each properly protected),
as well as the other components (also properly protected) off of a single
bus that has two useable power feeds as the manufacturer has designed. No
single battery or alternator failure will bring the house down. So to answer
your last question in a different way, I don't think anything other than failure
of the battery, the feeding wire, or the bus bar would kill the engine.
Boy I hope that I'm not being thick headed with this. Thanks for your patience.
Randy
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| Subject: | Re: Protecting the fat wires |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
>
> >
> > Initially I had those wires going to a breaker which I think would essentially
accomplish what you suggest. I liked the idea of actually seeing that there
is a problem by witnessing the tripped breaker.
>
> But what would be your FIRST clue? What
> event would prompt you to scan the breaker
> panel?
>
>
> > A fellow builder who is also an electrical engineer pointed out that if a
short occurred somewhere between the breaker and battery in that setup, that
there would be no way of turning off the electrons. There are a lot of examples
in Bob's diagrams where those hot wires are * as "6 in or less" presumably
to guard against just such a scenario. Does that not apply to the long runs supplying
the bus which are much much longer than 6"?
>
> FAT wires capable of many hundreds of
> amps are (1) few in number and (2)
> installed with special attention to
> low risk for mechanical damage. Less-
> than-fat feeders to battery busses are
> recommended compliant with design goal (2) by
> keeping them short.
>
>
> Bob . . .
There may not be a clue while in flight other than perhaps periodically scanning
the breaker and seeing it popped. It would definitely be obvious during the
preflight checklist if done correctly.
Ok. I understand the difference between overweight wire (14AWG) and morbidly obese
wire (#2 AWG) and that each has different needs.
If it weren't practical to have the always battery bus immediately adjacent to
the battery, is a fusible link or an inline fuse acceptable?
Randy
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| Subject: | Re: Protecting the fat wires |
user9253 wrote:
> Mount 40 amp automotive relays (B&C S8009-1) within 3" of battery positive
> posts. Connect 14 AWG between battery positive and relay. This 14 AWG
> wire will serve as a fuselink. No fuses needed. Connect the relay output to
> the engine bus with 10 AWG. Diodes could be installed per your diagram, but
> they are not required. The pilot can control which battery is connected to the
> engine bus by turning on one or both relays.
The diodes were suggested by an electrical engineer and fellow builder to mitigate
a risk of high current flowing between the batteries if both feeds were on
simultaneously. My understanding was that this could cause problems with the
fuses that I initially had on those lines, but am now going to omit based on
the previous discussion.
Thanks for the info and the ideas! They are valued.
Randy
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| Subject: | Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent |
engine
johnbright wrote:
>
> Randy C-GRPY wrote:
> > ...I'd also cycle the ECU select between 1,2, and both... I would expect that
if a relay or an ECU were unservicable that it would show up with those checks.
Do you have a different opinion John?
>
>
> Hi Randy,
>
> You are using SDS dual ECU for six cylinder with fuel trim. I know the dual four
cylinder wiring because I have the harness and relays. SDS does not show full
schematic details in their install manuals. It looks to me as though the Normal
injector switch position is relays not energized. Suppose the black wire
to the common terminal of the SPDT switch was broken; engine would run in all
three switch positions and pass preflight. Ref attached snip from "dual6ecurev3.pdf".
I'm not sure that I'm following correctly. That switch determines whether the injectors
are running off of one or the other ECU or both (each taking three injectors).
If you were on both and that wire were broken I'm not sure why the engine
would continue to run normally.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494584#494584
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Protecting the fat wires |
There could be low current between two batteries connected in parallel, but high
current is very unlikely.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494585#494585
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent |
engine
Randy C-GRPY wrote:
>
>
> I'm not sure that I'm following correctly. That switch determines whether the
injectors are running off of one or the other ECU or both (each taking three
injectors). If you were on both and that wire were broken I'm not sure why the
engine would continue to run normally.
Hi Randy,
I don't have the relays and harness in hand to 100% verify but I imagine:The Normal
injector switch position is relays not energized.
The Primary position energizes a relay to take three injectors off the backup ECU
and put them on the primary ECU, injectors paralleled in pairs.
The Backup position energizes a relay to take three injectors off the primary ECU
and put them on the backup ECU, injectors paralleled in pairs.
There is also a Mixture Knob Relay. Perhaps that disables cylinder trim.
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F
<a href="https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K">Dual
Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F</a>
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494586#494586
Message 17
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| Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below.
The
complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
************************************************************
PLEASE READ. This document contains AeroElectric-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the AeroElectric-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the AeroElectric-List
running smoothly for all of us.
******************************************
*** Quick Start Guide to List Features ***
******************************************
There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each
one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator
you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this
List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
****************************************
*** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe ***
****************************************
Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and
select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You
may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of
your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the
complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information.
The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption
process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request
was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed.
You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
until you receive the second conformation email message.
*****************************
*** How to Post a Message ***
*****************************
Send an email message to:
aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
to the List.
*****************************************************
*** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post ***
*****************************************************
When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List:
smith@machine.domain.com
smith@domain.com
Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to
the List.
**************************************
*** Enclosure Support on the Lists ***
**************************************
Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets
is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these
are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the
content of enclosures.
These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
Lists:
1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists.
2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists.
3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site.
4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives.
5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature.
6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls
All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "aeroelectric-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the AeroElectric-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all AeroElectric-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the AeroElectric-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* AeroElectric-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?AeroElectric
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
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I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
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I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
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Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
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Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
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If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
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Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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