---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/09/20: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:46 AM - Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS (Foghorn Inc) 2. 06:30 AM - Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS (user9253) 3. 07:10 AM - Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS (C&K) 4. 07:22 AM - Re: Molex Connector For SL-15 (William Hunter) 5. 07:33 AM - Re: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS (Foghorn Inc) 6. 07:58 AM - Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS (Foghorn Inc) 7. 08:10 AM - Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS (user9253) 8. 08:35 AM - Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS (johnbright) 9. 09:25 AM - Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS (johnbright) 10. 09:32 AM - Re: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS (Charlie England) 11. 11:44 AM - Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 12:00 PM - Re: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 12:48 PM - Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS (Foghorn Inc) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:46:44 AM PST US From: Foghorn Inc Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt. Thoughts? Please go easy on me. =F0=9F=98=AC Jeff Parker ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:30:10 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS From: "user9253" The alternator "B" lead fuses should be physically located at the battery end of the B lead, not at the alternator end. ANL fuses will carry their rated current indefinitely. Replace the 80 amp fuse with 40 amp. Replace the Aux 40 ANL with a Littelfuse Maxi 30 amp. For the cost of sales tax on the VP-X, a fuse block and fuses could be purchased. And fuses can be replaced by anywhere by the pilot. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494717#494717 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:46 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS From: C&K Jeff Fundamentally I ask myself what your goal might be? What are you trying to protect against? With an immediate low voltage warning you are not going to continue flying blissfully unaware after an alternator has failed until the battery dies like so many have done in the past. There would be no hurry whatsoever to close the crossfeed, or manually switch power sources after one z14 alternator quit, or do nothing and just land on the battery. Why put relays in the feed path to the engine instead of a switch. Or two switches ganged together to feed from either of two sources. If you do use relays what is the power source to activate them. In my case with independent ignitions I use a switch to each coil and either coil will run the engine. No diodes because the coils are separate from each other. My ecu's and coil drivers on the ground side of the coils operate regardless of whether their respective coils have +12 volts on them. Ken On 09/02/2020 7:44 AM, Foghorn Inc wrote: > Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for > powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an > emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt. > > Thoughts? > > Please go easy on me. > > Jeff Parker > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:35 AM PST US From: William Hunter Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Molex Connector For SL-15 Does anyone know what Molex female connector is used in the SL15 tray? Thanks, Bill Hunter On Thu, Feb 6, 2020, 16:54 wrote: > Greetings, > > > Can someone please help me do the following: > > > -Identify the proper Molex crimp on connector to go into the tray of my > SL-15? > > > -Give advice on how to easily remove the Molex connectors from the SL-15 > trayThe tray is kinda deep and it would be difficult to reach in to the > tray cavity with the removal tool and it kinda looks like the connector > body can be removed from the tray > > > BACK STORY: > > > Some of you might remember that I was trying to find out why the > entertainment input of my SL-15 was not working. > > > Well it seems that the avionics shop that I used to build the wire harnes s > for my avionics system did not wire it upand now I have to remov e the > avionics tray and install the wiresGrrrrr. > > > It is not exactly their faultthe SL-15 has a pretty stupid syste m where > it has two =9Centertainment=9D inputswith ENT 1 bein g only available for the > pilot stations and ENT 2 being only available only for the passenger > stationsIf everybody wants to listen to the same music the SL-15 > installation manual has a blurb that states: > > > =9CEntertainment inputs #1 and #2 can be paralleled so a single > entertainment source can > > serve both the passengers and the crew. It is suggested however, that a > switch (DPDT) is > > installed between the single entertainment device and entertainment input > #1. This will > > allow the pilot and copilot to decide if they hear entertainment while in > the Crew mode=9D > > > The avionics shop wired the input jack to ENT 2 and wired the Dynon > annunciations to ENT 1 and with this setup when I plugged in the music to > the input jack the music would only play to the passengers and the two > pilots would only be able to listen to the Dynon annunciationsho w > entertaining > > > So now I have to remove some Molex connectors and insert some wires and > connectors so I can listen to my music > > > THANKS!!! > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:41 AM PST US From: Foghorn Inc Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS Hey Joe, Thanks for the comments. The main Alt is 60a and the Aux Alt is 30+. I was under the impression that the ANL current limiter should be slightly larger than the ALT load. Hence the 80a and 40a ANL. I purchase most stuff from B&C and they dont sell a 70a ANL fuse to the best of my knowledge but Ill see what I can find. The VP-X is purchased and here to stay. Thanks, Jeff Parker > On 9Feb, 2020, at 09:28, user9253 wrote: > > > The alternator "B" lead fuses should be physically located at the battery end of the B lead, not at the alternator end. > ANL fuses will carry their rated current indefinitely. Replace the 80 amp fuse with 40 amp. > Replace the Aux 40 ANL with a Littelfuse Maxi 30 amp. > For the cost of sales tax on the VP-X, a fuse block and fuses could be purchased. > And fuses can be replaced by anywhere by the pilot. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494717#494717 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:13 AM PST US From: Foghorn Inc Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS > On 9Feb, 2020, at 10:08, C&K wrote: > > > > Jeff > Fundamentally I ask myself what your goal might be? Continued IFR flight, inhospitable terrain over flight or I might fly it to Europe =F0=9F=98=8F. What are you trying to protect against? Self induced engine failure. > > With an immediate low voltage warning you are not going to continue flying blissfully unaware after an alternator has failed until the battery dies like so many have done in the past. > There would be no hurry whatsoever to close the crossfeed, or manually switch power sources after one z14 alternator quit, or do nothing and just land on the battery. I agree and believe this diagram addresses continued flight with minimal pilot input. > > Why put relays in the feed path to the engine instead of a switch. Or two switches ganged together to feed from either of two sources. If you do use relays what is the power source to activate them. I=99m not tied to the relays. My thought process was to run a smaller gauge wire to the switch in the cockpit to activate the relays for the coils. I =99m really looking for what is simple and works. > > In my case with independent ignitions I use a switch to each coil and either coil will run the engine. No diodes because the coils are separate from each other. My ecu's and coil drivers on the ground side of the coils operate regardless of whether their respective coils have +12 volts on them. > Ken > > On 09/02/2020 7:44 AM, Foghorn Inc wrote: >> Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> Please go easy on me. =F0=9F=98=AC >> >> Jeff Parker >> >> >> > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:49 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS From: "user9253" The main alternator has two labels. 40 & 60. I only noticed the 40 amp label earlier. I think that "one size larger" rule of thumb applies to circuit breakers, not ANL fuses. Maybe Bob will chime in. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494722#494722 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:21 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS From: "johnbright" Re ANL current limiters. Ref: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/anl/anlvsjjs.html "There are some noteworthy characteristics of the ANL series devices. Note that they will carry nearly 2X their rated current indefinitely. This makes them behave more like the fusible links we've described elsewhere on this website. So, if you wish to size an ANL current limiter more in line with the output rating of your alternator, you could do so without regard to the "headroom"..." -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494723#494723 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:57 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS From: "johnbright" Hi Jeff... My 2 cents. All... bear in mind: Jeff and I are dual SDS EM-5-F four cylinder. Jeff is RV-8 with one battery forward of firewall and one battery aft of baggage bulkhead and I am RV-6A with two batteries forward of firewall. Six cylinder is different in some ways; the injector relays and ignition coils draw more current; I believe the fuel pumps are the same Walbro GSL393 units. Placing the engine bus forward of the firewall agrees with FAR 23.1361. For the engine bus feed 12 awg is conservative. I did current draw calculations, summarized at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14Jho6rEreX6upko3hPlpTRoGAmE3MCj18zQzqbGkyMM/edit#gid=1724151884 I too made the engine bus always hot to eliminate a couple relays and switches but in your case of one battery rear of the baggage bulkhead I would use a relay at the battery. I verify the diodes are not open or shorted by using the Dynon D6 voltmeter on the engine bus. My engine operation checklist is at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17gL5VBNBINsUWGvcAn5oU3dBuvL6c_QKnQUzpi2PggY/edit#gid=1116877898 FAR 23.1361 would have the fuel pumps on relays forward of the firewall. The ignition coil relays need a jumper from relay coil to power from engine bus. I don't know how to prove the injector relays are not stuck in the nominal/off/ECU 1 position if the ECUs are not switched. I used progressive ECU/Ignition Coil switches so the ECU can boot before powering the coil. Also on the engine operation checklist linked above. Both injector relays can be on the same fuse, they draw 0.055 A each for a total of 0.110 A. The install manual incorrectly says 0.42 A each; currently at V30 rev 3 01/08/2020. Wire from Blue Sea pass thru to starter contactor can be 4 awg. Wire to aux alternator can be 8 awg or even 10 awg. The ANL for main alternator would be close to the Blue Sea pass thru. Consider using a relay for aux bus feed so there will not be a hot switch on the IP in any case and so all power to the cabin can be cut in a post crash scenario. I'm not sure what's the best name for the Aux Eng Bus Feed switch given it comes from the Main Batt. -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494725#494725 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:07 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 10:16 AM user9253 wrote: > > The main alternator has two labels. 40 & 60. I only noticed the 40 amp > label earlier. I think that "one size larger" rule of thumb applies to > circuit breakers, not ANL fuses. Maybe Bob will chime in. > > -------- > Joe Gores > Specs are published by mfgrs. Bussman *non-time-delay* specs: http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bussmann/Electrical/Resources/product-datasheets-a/Bus_Ele_DS_2024_ANL.pdf According to this doc, a 50A ANL will handle 100A for virtually unlimited duration. But for a catastrophic fault, there's a very small difference (as a percentage of current or time to melt) between a 50A & an 80A. Ex: @120A, the 50A melts in 0.5 seconds while the 80A melts at 0.7 seconds. Charlie ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:53 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS At 06:44 AM 2/9/2020, you wrote: >Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for >powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with >an emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt. It doesn't really matter much since all busses are very robust. Put all engine loads on one bus . . . either main or aux . . . you'll be fine. No more busses needed Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:31 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS At 09:31 AM 2/9/2020, you wrote: > >Hey Joe, > >Thanks for the comments. The main Alt is 60a and >the Aux Alt is 30+. I was under the impression >that the ANL current limiter should be slightly >larger than the ALT load. Hence the 80a and 40a >ANL. I purchase most stuff from B&C and they >don=99t sell a 70a ANL fuse to the best of my >knowledge but I=99ll see what I can find. > >The VP-X is purchased and here to stay. Unlike CIRCUIT BREAKERS . . . ANL (vintage) or MIDI/MANL (recommended) devices are CURRENT LIMITERS. Check out the specs https://tinyurl.com/by5qnop a CURRENT LIMITER is intended to clear hard faults (read: more amps than you'd like to have flowing anywhere on the airplane!). A current limiter will typically carry it's rated current for a very long time. Emacs! 150% of rating is still longer than you want a branch circuit protection to trip. But hit say a MIDI50 with 500A (1000%) fault and it's going to open in about 100 milliseconds. Short story, when purchasing current limiters, the size equal to your expected continuous current is fine . . . CIRCUIT BREAKERS are another story . . . and not recommended for alternator b-lead protection anyhow. Beech quit putting them into the b-leads about 3 or 4 decades ago . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:48:39 PM PST US From: Foghorn Inc Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS Thanks Bob! I=99ll go with it and get some MIDI/MANL current limiters at the ALTs rated power. Jeff Parker > On 9Feb, 2020, at 14:39, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 06:44 AM 2/9/2020, you wrote: >> Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt. > > It doesn't really matter much since all busses > are very robust. Put all engine loads on one > bus . . . either main or aux . . . you'll be > fine. No more busses needed > > > Bob . . . > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.