Today's Message Index:
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1. 06:02 AM - Re: Re: Always hot power for fuel injectors and ignition coils (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 06:02 AM - Re: Re: Always hot power for fuel injectors and ignition coils (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 06:03 AM - Re: Re: Always Hot Power to Injectors and Ignition Coils (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 06:24 AM - Re: Re: Always Hot Power to Injectors and Ignition Coils (Ernest Christley)
5. 07:04 AM - Re: Re: Always Hot Power to Injectors and Ignition Coils (C&K)
6. 12:44 PM - Re: Re: Always Hot Power to Injectors and Ignition Coils (Charlie England)
7. 01:40 PM - Always Hot Power to Injectors and Ignition Coils (Krea Ellis)
8. 02:20 PM - Re: Always Hot Power to Injectors and Ignition Coils (mmayfield)
9. 02:21 PM - Re: Always Hot Power to Injectors and Ignition Coils (johnbright)
10. 08:09 PM - Re: Always Hot Power to Injectors and Ignition Coils (cofford)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Always hot power for fuel injectors and ignition |
coils
At 09:04 PM 2/16/2020, you wrote:
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Thanks for your thoughts. I plan on mounting my battery on the
>firewall, and the engine fuse block on the cabin side, near the
>battery and pass-through. The relay would be mounted to the battery
>box. I was not planning on adding any circuit protection devices to
>the engine bus relay feed.
Why the relay? Why not run all those engine
feeds off the main bus? That way, if the engine
is running, all the other stuff is running too . . .
and vice versa.
Then your task is simpler. Keep the main bus
hot . . . a goal that has been successfully
achieved on thousands of airplanes for
a long time.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Always hot power for fuel injectors and ignition |
coils
At 09:04 PM 2/16/2020, you wrote:
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Thanks for your thoughts. I plan on mounting my battery on the
>firewall, and the engine fuse block on the cabin side, near the
>battery and pass-through. The relay would be mounted to the battery
>box. I was not planning on adding any circuit protection devices to
>the engine bus relay feed.
Why the relay? Why not run all those engine
feeds off the main bus? That way, if the engine
is running, all the other stuff is running too . . .
and vice versa.
Then your task is simpler. Keep the main bus
hot . . . a goal that has been successfully
achieved on thousands of airplanes for
a long time.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Always Hot Power to Injectors and Ignition |
Coils
At 05:10 AM 2/17/2020, you wrote:
>Sorry, still not able to post directly.
>
>A couple of questions. How will you do a =9Cmag
>check=9D if the coils are always powered?
You don't do a mag check on things that are not
mags . . . If you've got a coil misbehaving
the engine will let you know about it without
any sort of preflight check.
>
>
>Does anyone have any experience with the
>somewhat pricey but seemingly reliable and well
>built Gigavac MX series contactors? I realize
>they aren=99t available on the aviation aisle at
>NAPA, but I can always carry a spare.
What brings to a notion that you
need such a beast? And if 'seemingly
reliable' why would you carry a spare?
>Lastly, what software are you guys using to draw
>your very nice electrical schematics? I=99m
>looking for something that doesn=99t have a
>steep learning curve that an old guy can pick up reasonably quickly.
AutoCAD and it's contemporary competitors
will open, edit, create and print files
with the .dwg format.
All of my drawings along with the symbols
library are downloadable from the website.
About any version of TurboCAD off eBay
will work for you. Here's one good
example
https://tinyurl.com/upvbr3f
there are numerous tutorials on TurboCAD
available from the same website.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Always Hot Power to Injectors and Ignition |
Coils
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020, 9:04:57 AM EST, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
At 05:10 AM 2/17/2020, you wrote:
Sorry, still not able to postdirectly.
A couple of questions.=C2- How will you do a =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93mag che
ck=C3=A2=82=AC=EF=BD if thecoils are always powered?
=C2- You don't do a mag check on things that are not
=C2- mags . . . If you've got a coil misbehaving
=C2- the engine will let you know about it without
=C2- any sort of preflight check.
Bob, I can count on one hand the number of times I've disagreed with you, b
ut this is wrong and dangerous.=C2- I have dual coils on separate switche
s, so that I can test each one during a run-up.=C2- One uses mechanical p
oints, and the other electronic points.=C2- They are both on for take-off
and landing, but only one for cruise.
- Six months ago, I noticed a 150rpm drop on one coil.=C2- Cleaning the m
echanical points cleared it up.-Three days ago, the engine died when I swit
ched to one of the two.=C2- Turned out to be a blown fuse after I had swi
tched out the coil for one of the "magnum power" versions that drew more cu
rrent.
If you've got dual coils, you will never know that one is misbehaving witho
ut the ability to switch the other off.
BTW, I also have two fuel pumps.=C2- Both on for take-off and landing, bu
t run-up includes a check that the engine runs fine with either in solo.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Always Hot Power to Injectors and Ignition |
Coils
On 18/02/2020 9:22 AM, Ernest Christley wrote:
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 18, 2020, 9:04:57 AM EST, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>
> At 05:10 AM 2/17/2020, you wrote:
>> Sorry, still not able to post directly.
>>
>> A couple of questions. How will you do a mag check if the
>> coils are always powered?
>
> You don't do a mag check on things that are not
> mags . . . If you've got a coil misbehaving
> the engine will let you know about it without
> any sort of preflight check.
>
>
> Bob, I can count on one hand the number of times I've disagreed with
> you, but this is wrong and dangerous. I have dual coils on separate
> switches, so that I can test each one during a run-up. One uses
> mechanical points, and the other electronic points. They are both on
> for take-off and landing, but only one for cruise.
>
> - Six months ago, I noticed a 150rpm drop on one coil. Cleaning the
> mechanical points cleared it up.
> -Three days ago, the engine died when I switched to one of the two.
> Turned out to be a blown fuse after I had switched out the coil for
> one of the "magnum power" versions that drew more current.
>
> If you've got dual coils, you will never know that one is misbehaving
> without the ability to switch the other off.
>
> BTW, I also have two fuel pumps. Both on for take-off and landing,
> but run-up includes a check that the engine runs fine with either in solo.
>
>
Same thing running a coil joiner with one spark plug. There is no
change in engine performance if one quits.
Ken
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Always Hot Power to Injectors and Ignition |
Coils
On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 8:10 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 05:10 AM 2/17/2020, you wrote:
>
> Sorry, still not able to post directly.
>
> A couple of questions. How will you do a =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93mag check
=C3=A2=82=AC if the coils are
> always powered?
>
>
> You don't do a mag check on things that are not
> mags . . . If you've got a coil misbehaving
> the engine will let you know about it without
> any sort of preflight check.
>
>
> [snipped]
>
> Bob . . .
>
I'll have to add my vote. While it isn't technically a *mag* check, it's
still wise to check both systems just like the traditional mag check. Those
with dual electronic ignitions will tell you that you don't get any 'mag
drop' at all when switching an ignition off during 'mag check', so if one
ignition is dead prior to takeoff, you wouldn't discover it unless the
other one died in flight. But you'll surely know when the good one is
switched off during 'mag check'.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Always Hot Power to Injectors and Ignition Coils |
You don't do a mag check on things that are not
mags . . . If you've got a coil misbehaving
the engine will let you know about it without
any sort of preflight check.
I disagree as well. I want to be able to shutoff a coil/mag/pMag to
check for RPM drop and/or rough running on every runup. I also don=99
t like the idea of the coils being =9Chot=9D all the time.
Granted it takes the ECU to trigger a ground to truly make them hot.
What brings to a notion that you
need such a beast? And if 'seemingly
reliable' why would you carry a spare?
Electrically dependent engine and I like the fact they are mil-spec and
have a low current draw. Might provide a little extra endurance if down
to battery and the cross-tie is closed. I use Michelin Airstop tubes
too, although a Tractor Supply tube would work. I carry a spare Michelin
anyway. It=99s just me.
Thanks for the suggestions on CAD programs.
Krea Ellis
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Always Hot Power to Injectors and Ignition Coils |
[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]At 05:10 AM 2/17/2020, you wrote:
>
> You don't do a mag check on things that are not
> mags . . . If you've got a coil misbehaving
> the engine will let you know about it without
> any sort of preflight check.
>
> Bob . . .
You certainly do.
But let's not call it a "mag check". Let's call it an "ignition check". For all
intents and purposes there's no obvious difference to the naked eye.
So on my dual EI aircraft that check is specified by the electronic ignition manufacturer
along with the maximum rpm drop. The purpose is not only to check that
the spark is getting to all the plugs on the operative ignition (a problem
which can be masked when both systems are on), but also that the electronic ignition
warning system is functioning correctly. Switching each one off in turn
effectively simulates a "failure" of the ignition unit.
I once foolishly overlooked this check, took off, and it turned out both plugs
on one of my 9 cylinders were fouled (which would've been detected had I done
it properly). At full power and 150 litres/hour takeoff fuel flow, the unburned
fuel was being pumped through that cylinder and expelled into the hot exhaust
where it ignited causing a massive bang and large sheet of flame to be expelled
very shortly after takeoff. Coinciding with this "after-fire" was a large
back pressure created through the engine which cause a temporary dramatic and
rather eye-watering power loss.
This occurred repeatedly (with a large power loss each time, followed by recovery)
until I pulled the power back when it settled a bit. I did the tightest circuit
pattern I've ever done in my life. Spectators on the ground thought I was
going to crash - they could hear each "bang!" accompanied by the big sheet of
flame out of the exhaust.
So yeah.... you do an ignition check, which looks and feels identical to a "mag
check" with electronic ignition units. :)
--------
Mike
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494885#494885
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Always Hot Power to Injectors and Ignition Coils |
BTW, for EFII brand EFI/EI:
In the case of six cylinder engines, cylinders 5 and 6 top and bottom use the same
coilpack. That seems to be a lack of redundancy.
System 32 uses switches from ECU "P-Leads" to ground to check coilpacks but I would
think loss of power to one of those coilpacks in flight would take out cylinders
5 and 6 in the case of six cylinders.
Legacy systems used SDS ECUs but also have three four-cylinder coilpacks on six
cylinder applications whereas SDS branded systems use two six-cylinder coilpacks.
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F
Dual batt dual alt SDS dual EM-5-F but considering a single batt design.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494886#494886
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Always Hot Power to Injectors and Ignition Coils |
In my setup, the ignition check is done at runup using the ignition select switch.
A 1-1 switch is used to ground a pin on each ECU which disables the ignition
for that ECU. Normal operation is in the center position, with neither pin
connected to ground. This is verified through both RPM drop and an indicator
on the System32 display. The ECU controlling the fuel injectors (switched ground)
is done in a similar manner, except that one ECU is disabled during flight,
and a 1-3 switch is used.
Just as a disclaimer, I'm not flying yet, so this is all per the installation manual
and my understanding of the system operation.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494890#494890
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