Today's Message Index:
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1. 04:46 AM - EdbMails IMAP To Office 365 Migration (johnjorge)
2. 08:13 AM - Baluns redux (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 04:33 PM - Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron (bcone1381)
4. 06:58 PM - Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron (Charlie England)
5. 07:50 PM - Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 10:18 PM - DC DC Battery Charger (mullokintyre)
Message 1
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| Subject: | EdbMails IMAP To Office 365 Migration |
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Message 2
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Thread copied from a private exchange:
====================================================================
>Comments/Questions: Hi fron Dog Brenneman--first of all, I make all the
>mechanics read your book and i use it quite often. Your book is sooooo good.
Thank you sir! I'm pleased that you've found it
so useful. Know that the book can also be downloaded
and stored on a personal device for easy reference:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Books/Connection/
>Currently, we are doing a total re-wire of a Comanche and one of the items
>is making a new balun for the "cat's whisker" antenna from RG 400.
>I have your diagram here and printed out the steps to construct also.
That design is known as the "Pawsey Stub Balun"
described in detail here
https://tinyurl.com/tm26ktz
I have tested this design with a vector network
analyzer and found it to perform as advertised.
>I am confused with baluns--I see some designs wherein the center conductor
>is continuous (just a loop) to the short (26 inch--or 17.7 inch) parallel
>section to the main feed line and just the braid connects to the two points on
>the phenolic disc.
Yes . . . the 'aviation balun' . . .
https://tinyurl.com/vrtuk3z
This thing has been repeated in countless locations including
AC43.13 . . . I (and others) have tested this design on
a VNA and found it to be completely bogus . . . I can
find no original source for it's design.
>In your design, the short section braid connects to the center
>conductor of the
>main feed line. I also see some in which the braid tie-together at the end
>of the short section is grounded to the airframe. I plan to go with
>your design
>but I am always seeking knowledge.
Good on you! There are numerous designs for baluns
fabricated from coax or sometimes transformers wound
on high frequency ferrite cores. Of all choices I observe
the Pawsey Stub to be the simplest as well as being
verified for effectiveness.
>Thanx for your time--- remember, I am just pilot and mechanic--don't useb
>ig words--humor intended
We are all limited in many respects . . . limits
handily mitigated by sharing. Thank you for
your interest.
Bob . . .
-----------------------------
Bob Nuckolls
AeroElectric Connection
P.O. Box 130
Medicine Lodge, KS 67104-0130
Mobile: 316-209-7528
Web: http://aeroelectric.com
------------------------------
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron |
Greetings;
I'm applying the wisdom gleaned from The Aeroelectric Connection and request feedback.
The Aircraft:
-A basic VFR Bearhawk Patrol, which is a Aviat Husky/Super cub type of aircraft
-Dual Surefly Electronic Ignition modules to replace Magnetos.
Electrical system Goal:
-Simple reliability,
-Power Dual Electronic Ignition, plus simple stuff like a comm radio, transponder,
a fuel pump, LED NAV lights and a few other things.
The Z11 digram titled Generic Light Aircraft Electrical System is my favorite.
But the Dual Electronic Ignition needs are special. I called Surefly and they
agreed that prudence demands I install a dedicated battery for each ignition module.
Further guidance from the Ignition Supplier
-Use a hefty diode to the Aux Batt to reliably protect it from back feeding
-Monitor the Voltage to the Aux Batt.
-Size of Aux Battery can be small, just so its duration exceeds the fuel duration.
8 amp hour?
Some here might be interested in electrical needs of a single ignition module.
-Required Voltage = 8-30V
-Amp draw = 0.7A +/- 0.2A at 2700 RPM
-Permanently connect Power to the + Batt terminal OR the Master Solenoid battery
+ input.
-Use 14AWG and a 10A fuse or CB.
-When the Ignition is placed in Standby mode (turned off) by grounding the P-lead,
it draws less than 1ma.
So, I'm proposing a Z11 system with one ignition wired directly to a normal size
Main Battery, and the second ignition wired directly to a small single purpose
Aux Battery.
Although Bobs Book has a Dual Batt diagram, In the spirit of simplicity I didn't
use a solenoid for the Aux Battery, I protect the aux battery with a diode,
and I will monitor the voltage of the Aux battery.
What are your thoughts?
--------
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495508#495508
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0518_119.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2020_03_31_at_41808_pm_464.png
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron |
On 3/31/2020 6:27 PM, bcone1381 wrote:
>
> Greetings;
>
> I'm applying the wisdom gleaned from The Aeroelectric Connection and request
feedback.
>
> The Aircraft:
> -A basic VFR Bearhawk Patrol, which is a Aviat Husky/Super cub type of aircraft
> -Dual Surefly Electronic Ignition modules to replace Magnetos.
>
> Electrical system Goal:
> -Simple reliability,
> -Power Dual Electronic Ignition, plus simple stuff like a comm radio, transponder,
a fuel pump, LED NAV lights and a few other things.
>
> The Z11 digram titled Generic Light Aircraft Electrical System is my favorite.
> But the Dual Electronic Ignition needs are special. I called Surefly and they
agreed that prudence demands I install a dedicated battery for each ignition
module.
>
> Further guidance from the Ignition Supplier
> -Use a hefty diode to the Aux Batt to reliably protect it from back feeding
> -Monitor the Voltage to the Aux Batt.
> -Size of Aux Battery can be small, just so its duration exceeds the fuel duration.
8 amp hour?
>
> Some here might be interested in electrical needs of a single ignition module.
> -Required Voltage = 8-30V
> -Amp draw = 0.7A +/- 0.2A at 2700 RPM
> -Permanently connect Power to the + Batt terminal OR the Master Solenoid battery
+ input.
> -Use 14AWG and a 10A fuse or CB.
> -When the Ignition is placed in Standby mode (turned off) by grounding the P-lead,
it draws less than 1ma.
>
> So, I'm proposing a Z11 system with one ignition wired directly to a normal size
Main Battery, and the second ignition wired directly to a small single purpose
Aux Battery.
>
> Although Bobs Book has a Dual Batt diagram, In the spirit of simplicity I didn't
use a solenoid for the Aux Battery, I protect the aux battery with a diode,
and I will monitor the voltage of the Aux battery.
>
> What are your thoughts?
>
> --------
> Brooks Cone
> Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495508#495508
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0518_119.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2020_03_31_at_41808_pm_464.png
Hi Brooks, welcome aboard.
looking at the 1st drawing:
B lead protection should be at the other end (at the solenoid terminal)
to protect the wire from the battery. The B lead should be sized large
enough that the alt can't hurt it.
As drawn, the ESS bus is always hot (directly tied to the main battery).
As drawn, the aux battery and L ign are always hot (tied to battery
through the diode).
As drawn, the R ign is always hot (directly tied to the main battery).
I don't fly enough to trust that the ignitions wouldn't run the
batteries down while the plane sits idle. Might not be a factor for you.
I'd also want positive control over the ignitions; I suppose that
pullable CBs would accomplish that.
Hope the above is helpful.
Congrats on the Patrol; Bearhawk does nice airplanes.
Charlie
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron |
At 08:52 PM 3/31/2020, you wrote:
>>The Z11 digram titled =C3=A2=9CGeneric Light
>>Aircraft Electrical System=C3=A2=C2=9D is my favorite.
>e.
>>But the Dual Electronic Ignition needs are
>>special. I called Surefly and they
>>agreed that prudence demands I install a
>>dedicated battery for each ignition module.
Absolutely not recommended. All due respect to
Surefly, they are not systems integrators nor
should they attempt to become so without adding
a butt-load of tribal knowledge in the aircraft
arts. They have reason to worry, 'deprive our
pride and joy product(s) of energy and your
engine stops'. It is sufficient to make that
assertion and leave it at that.
Your task then is to PROVIDE failure-tolerant
power sources to critical equipment such that
no single failure puts the airframe (and by
extension it's occupants) at risk.
>>Further guidance from the Ignition Supplier
>>-Use a hefty diode to the Aux Batt to reliably protect it from back
feeding
>>-Monitor the Voltage to the Aux Batt.
>>-Size of Aux Battery can be small, just so its
>>duration exceeds the fuel duration. 8 amp hour?
>>
>>Some here might be interested in electrical
>>needs of a single ignition module.
>>-Required Voltage = 8-30V
>>-Amp draw = 0.7A +/- 0.2A at 2700 RPM
>>-Permanently connect Power to the + Batt
>>terminal OR the Master Solenoid battery + input.
>>-Use 14AWG and a 10A fuse or CB.
>>-When the Ignition is placed in Standby mode
>>(turned off) by grounding the P-lead, it draws less than 1ma.
Good data . . . EXACTLY what is their DUTY
to supply such that good decisions can be
made by the systems integration individual
(or team) to provide an FMEA friendly
architecture and operating philosophy
that (1) minimizes risk and (2) minimizes
cost of ownership. Adding backup batteries
NEVER reduces cost. Further, if a backup
battery is really necessary, then there's
strong probability that something is
seriously wrong with the basic architecture.
The premise behind this idea is that airplanes
have a family of devices presenting various levels
of criticality for comfortable termination
of flight. So you have dual electronic
ignition? Fine . . . are you comfortable
launching into the blue not having offered
the rest of your electro-whizzies the same
courtesies as your ignition systems? If not,
the does it not stand to reason that if
the rest of your 'critical' systems are
happy, so too will be your ignition systems?
The optimal answer is 'fix the architecture'
and leave the batteries on the dealer's shelves.
>>So, I'm proposing a Z11 system with one
>>ignition wired directly to a normal size Main
>>Battery, and the second ignition wired directly
>>to a small single purpose Aux Battery.
>>
>>Although Bob=C3=A2=99s Book has a Dual Batt
>>diagram, In the spirit of simplicity I didn't
>>use a solenoid for the Aux Battery, I protect
>>the aux battery with a diode, and I will
>>monitor the voltage of the Aux battery.
>.
>>
>>What are your thoughts?
Have you considered the fledgling architecture posted
here on the list a few weeks back . . . See
https://tinyurl.com/qnzenca
Here we've shown an 'engine bus' that enjoys
dual feedpaths such that no single failure
of power generation/storage sources will
bring down that bus.
If that assertion is in error, let's deduce
root cause and fix it. I'm not suggesting
that a 'standby battery' would never be
the elegant mitigation of an identified
failure mode . . . but that is the key
word . . . IDENTIFIED.
Perhaps it is your project that offers a
pathway to illuminating a condition that
begs 'fixing'.
There's a particular project manager at
Hawker-Beech who still figures in my
dreams wherein I can see him peering at
me over his reading glasses and asserting:
"Nuckolls, CONVINCE me that this system's
certification fortunes hinge on the addition
of a (stick your favorite band-aid in here)."
Let's do our homework and see if we can
figure out how to make your project fly
comfortably on one, judiciously maintained
battery . . . just has hundreds of thousands
of airplanes have flown for over a century.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | DC DC Battery Charger |
I have been building up my 4WD Tow vehicle with auxilliary batteries, solar panels
etc, and was wondering if its viable to transfer some of my new found experience
to my experimental aircraft .
I have a dual Electronic Ignition dual battery setup with a B&C 60 amp alternator,
plus a backup sd08 alternator.
Plenty of redundancy. However, although the 60 amp alternator is more than adequate
to keep the main battery charged, The sd08 does not keep up with the discharging
of the auxilliary battery.
I was thinking about putting in a DC DC charger from the main battery to the ausxilliary.
Something like https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0022/5640/4547/files/OzCharge_Manual_OC-DC1215_V1.2.pdf?2151
Am I being optimistic/foolish??
Mick
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