Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:19 AM - Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron (user9253)
2. 06:33 AM - Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron (bcone1381)
3. 09:00 AM - Some thoughts on 'standby' batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 09:23 AM - Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron (bcone1381)
5. 10:18 AM - Re: Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 10:43 AM - Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron (user9253)
7. 10:58 AM - Re: Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron (Charlie England)
8. 11:11 AM - Re: Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron (Foghorn Inc)
9. 03:01 PM - Re: Some thoughts on 'standby' batteries (Peter Pengilly)
10. 04:14 PM - Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron (user9253)
11. 11:02 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
12. 11:02 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
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| Subject: | Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron |
Move the E-Bus switch so that it is between the battery and E-Bus like Bob
designed it. Better yet, have the switch control a relay so that power can be
shut off close to the source (battery).
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495515#495515
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| Subject: | Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron |
ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:
> On 3/31/2020 6:27 PM, bcone1381 wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Greetings;
> >
> > I'm applying the wisdom gleaned from The Aeroelectric Connection and request
feedback.
> >
> > The Aircraft:
> > -A basic VFR Bearhawk Patrol, which is a Aviat Husky/Super cub type of aircraft
> > -Dual Surefly Electronic Ignition modules to replace Magnetos.
> >
> > Electrical system Goal:
> > -Simple reliability,
> > -Power Dual Electronic Ignition, plus simple stuff like a comm radio, transponder,
a fuel pump, LED NAV lights and a few other things.
> >
> > The Z11 digram titled Generic Light Aircraft Electrical System is my favorite.
> > But the Dual Electronic Ignition needs are special. I called Surefly and
they agreed that prudence demands I install a dedicated battery for each ignition
module.
> >
> > Further guidance from the Ignition Supplier
> > -Use a hefty diode to the Aux Batt to reliably protect it from back feeding
> > -Monitor the Voltage to the Aux Batt.
> > -Size of Aux Battery can be small, just so its duration exceeds the fuel duration.
8 amp hour?
> >
> > Some here might be interested in electrical needs of a single ignition module.
> > -Required Voltage = 8-30V
> > -Amp draw = 0.7A +/- 0.2A at 2700 RPM
> > -Permanently connect Power to the + Batt terminal OR the Master Solenoid battery
+ input.
> > -Use 14AWG and a 10A fuse or CB.
> > -When the Ignition is placed in Standby mode (turned off) by grounding the
P-lead, it draws less than 1ma.
> >
> > So, I'm proposing a Z11 system with one ignition wired directly to a normal
size Main Battery, and the second ignition wired directly to a small single
purpose Aux Battery.
> >
> > Although Bobs Book has a Dual Batt diagram, In the spirit of simplicity I
didn't use a solenoid for the Aux Battery, I protect the aux battery with a diode,
and I will monitor the voltage of the Aux battery.
> >
> > What are your thoughts?
> >
> > --------
> > Brooks Cone
> > Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495508#495508
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Attachments:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0518_119.jpg
> > http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2020_03_31_at_41808_pm_464.png
> > Hi Brooks, welcome aboard.
> >
>
>
> looking at the 1st drawing:
> B lead protection should be at the other end (at the solenoid terminal)
> to protect the wire from the battery. The B lead should be sized large
> enough that the alt can't hurt it.
>
> As drawn, the ESS bus is always hot (directly tied to the main battery).
>
> As drawn, the aux battery and L ign are always hot (tied to battery
> through the diode).
>
> As drawn, the R ign is always hot (directly tied to the main battery).
>
> I don't fly enough to trust that the ignitions wouldn't run the
> batteries down while the plane sits idle. Might not be a factor for you.
> I'd also want positive control over the ignitions; I suppose that
> pullable CBs would accomplish that.
>
> Hope the above is helpful.
>
> Congrats on the Patrol; Bearhawk does nice airplanes.
>
> Charlie
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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__________
Thanks Charlie;
B lead protection....Got it. I moved the current limiter to the solenoid end.
Essential Bus always hot...My error on the not installing a switch from the main
battery to the Essential Bus. The Essential bus will draw less than 5A so I
chose a switch over a solenoid.
The Ignitions are powered all the time. They are controlled by grounding the P-lead.
When "off" (in standby mode) they will draw about 1 miliamp. You dont control
them with a traditional power switch. They will draw down a battery over
time so a battery maintainer is prudent.
--------
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495518#495518
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| Subject: | Some thoughts on 'standby' batteries |
Batteries have been an essential component
of aircraft electrical systems from day-one.
The first airborne electrics were battery powered
by devices recharged after every flight given
that engine driven power sources were not
yet prominent fixtures. Indeed, wind-driven
generators were more prevalent (read low power
and DRAG!).
Batteries were 'wet', produced fumes when
charged. dribbled acid over themselves and
the airplane and had relatively short service
lives. I.e. they were a commodity like tires,
oil and gasoline. Their reliability as a
power source depended on constant monitoring
of condition.
While secondary (rechargeable) batteries have
become much more efficient, environmentally
friendly, more per pound and cubic foot, they
are still a commodity. You cannot install
a battery into any function expecting it to
perform as needed for more than a tiny fraction
of the airframe service life. Further, if loss
of a battery-supported system adversely impacts
probability for comfortable termination of
flight like fuel and oil . . . the battery's
condition demands reliable monitoring of
condition for continued airworthiness.
This is a burden on cost of ownership. It
expands the operator's work load for periodic
and capable preventative maintenance peppered
with the expense of replacement on condition.
Design goals for elegant electrical systems
architecture includes minimizing the need
for batteries in both number, size and expense.
The ultimate achievement for reduction of
batteries might be (1) a battery capable
of but one start cycle and (2) sufficient
capacity to operate landing lights during
the last 60 seconds of a dead-stick landing
at night.
THAT battery might indeed be quite small and
its cost of ownership very nominal. It might
even be cheap enough to simply replace it at
every annual . . . or perhaps every 100 hours
just as you might change the oil. Thus you've
eliminate the need for time, effort and test
equipment necessary to conduct preventative
maintenance on ship's battery(ies).
This line of reasoning sets the design goals
for an electrical system tailored to a project's
engine, airframe, capabilities and planned
missions. One goal is to minimize singling
out any particular set of loads as critical
but to consider the machine, pilot and
flight environment as a system.
Over the past 30 years, a family of architectures
have been proposed, refined, published and
applied to projects in the OBAM aviation
community. Some have served the builder's
design goals well . . . others not so well.
It's an iterative evolutionary process that
strives for demonstrable success.
The proposed Z01 architecture takes into account
the pronounced shift in aircraft designs that
incorporate multiple engine driven power sources,
electrically dependent engines and yes . . .
a desire to shed as much of the battery weight
and cost of ownership as practical.
Discussions here on the List and elsewhere
are needed to ferret out any failure to meet
a design goal . . . not as SUPPLIERS of any
particular electro-whizzy but as USERS
of those devices as components of the whole
FLIGHT SYSTEM.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron |
> Your task then is to PROVIDE failure-tolerant
> power sources to critical equipment such that
> no single failure puts the airframe (and by
> extension it's occupants) at risk.
>
> .....The premise behind this idea is that airplanes
> have a family of devices presenting various levels
> of criticality for comfortable termination
> of flight. So you have dual electronic
> ignition? Fine . . . are you comfortable
> launching into the blue not having offered
> the rest of your electro-whizzies the same
> courtesies as your ignition systems? If not,
> the does it not stand to reason that if
> the rest of your 'critical' systems are
> happy, so too will be your ignition systems?
>
> The optimal answer is 'fix the architecture'
> and leave the batteries on the dealer's shelves.
The Ignition is the critical item. I am comfortable loosing power to all the electronics
other than the ignition, therefore the electrical system architecture
is being designed to accommodate it.
> Have you considered the fledgling architecture posted
> here on the list a few weeks back . . . See
>
> https://tinyurl.com/qnzenca
>
Kind of......I considered the diagram but not the architecture. Dual alternators,
brownout bus, it seemed complex for my application. My perception is electrical
demands for EFI are large compared with my choice of ignition at 1.4A total.
Since both ignitions tied to a single battery was not failure tolerant ,
the SureFly small second battery (12V 8Ahr is $50) seemed simple.
> Let's do our homework and see if we can
> figure out how to make your project fly
> comfortably on one, judiciously maintained
> battery . . . just has hundreds of thousands
> of airplanes have flown for over a century.
>
So lets reconsider that as archetecure and see what we come up with.
I have integrated the Architecture into my diagram, and removed the Aux Battery.
The load on the Engine bus will be less than 5A so I will use a switch instead
of a solenoid. I removed the Battery Bus to avoid a human error that might
deplete the battery out in the bush.
If the power supply from the ALT side of the master solenoid fails, the engine
dies until the switch is flipped by reliable human action. Not ideal. A diode
to replace the switch eliminates human failure.
The next step I see is to remove the engine bus, bolt both power wires to the Battery
side of the master solenoid. Now I am chasing my tail back to where I
was. But lets say I did that. If the Solenoid fails open, then the engine is
battery powered while the rest of the ship is powered by the alternator.
I think you already discussed months ago, but it looks to me like the Engine Bus
duplicates the Essential bus.
How am I doing?
--------
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495525#495525
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0521_264.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual |
Electron
>
>
>The Ignition is the critical item. I am comfortable loosing power to
>all the electronics other than the ignition, therefore the
>electrical system architecture is being designed to accommodate it.
>
Why settle for that . . . and the expenses associated
with it? When it might be easy to keep the whole
panel lit up?
>Kind of......I considered the diagram but not the
>architecture. Dual alternators, brownout bus, it seemed complex for
>my application. My perception is electrical demands for EFI are
>large compared with my choice of ignition at 1.4A total. Since both
>ignitions tied to a single battery was not failure tolerant , the
>SureFly small second battery (12V 8Ahr is $50) seemed simple.
Do you have room for a second alternator? The
brownout bus is optional dependent on equipment
installed. So is the battery bus. Remember, these
are architecture drawings with features that
address specific needs . . . if the need doesn't
exist, the feature is deleted.
The second alternator could be as small/light as
an SD8 . . . have you conducted a load analysis?
Do you KNOW what loads are supported under your
anticipated flight conditions?
>So lets reconsider that as archetecure and see what we come up with.
>
>I have integrated the Architecture into my diagram, and removed the
>Aux Battery. The load on the Engine bus will be less than 5A so I
>will use a switch instead of a solenoid.
powered from what source? How long is the feeder from
that source to the switch?
> I removed the Battery Bus to avoid a human error that might
> deplete the battery out in the bush.
What accessories are on your airplane that would
benefit from a battery bus? If none, then no
bus necessary.
>If the power supply from the ALT side of the master solenoid fails, the
>engine dies until the switch is flipped by reliable human action.
>Not ideal. A diode to replace the switch eliminates human failure.
Then there's something wrong with the architecture . . .
one failure shuts off BOTH ignitions?
How so? Are you talking about the alternator?
The battery supports ALL loads in the event of
alternator failure.
>The next step I see is to remove the engine bus, bolt both power
>wires to the Battery side of the master solenoid. Now I am chasing
>my tail back to where I was. But lets say I did that. If the
>Solenoid fails open, then the engine is battery powered while the
>rest of the ship is powered by the alternator.
Contactors just don't do that in flight. Wiring
that controls contactors might . . . a bad crimp
turns loose of a wire. But that's a craftsmanship
issue. If we're going to craft firewalls for
craftsmanship . . . well . . . you can see where
that leads. But let's assume that your contactor
opens in flight for any reason. How would you
become aware of it?
>I think you already discussed months ago, but it looks to me like
>the Engine Bus duplicates the Essential bus.
The 'essential' bus was originally crafted to
quickly minimize loads during alternator-out
operations and later (Z13/8) operations
with an itty-bitty standby alternator i.e.
and ENDURANCE bus.
Later it kinda morphed into a bus for
brownout sensitive loads whether or not
the endurance feature was needed.
Now it has a big brother intended to
support electrically dependent engines
every need including fuel management,
fuel injection, ignition and (if needed)
engine management instrumentation.
Do you have any electro-whizzies that
address engine ops over and above
the ignition system(s)? How is this
airplane to be used? Night ops? Extended
cross-country over unfriendly terrain?
IFR?
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron |
Why put a switch in series with the E-Bus diode?
I suggest that switch be eliminated. If it is not installed, it can not fail.
-
I suggest that a double pole switch be used for the engine bus switch.
The second half of that switch can enable the engine start circuit.
Properly wired, the engine bus switch must be on in order to start the engine.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495528#495528
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual |
Electron
On 4/1/2020 11:20 AM, bcone1381 wrote:
>
>
>> Your task then is to PROVIDE failure-tolerant
>> power sources to critical equipment such that
>> no single failure puts the airframe (and by
>> extension it's occupants) at risk.
>>
>> .....The premise behind this idea is that airplanes
>> have a family of devices presenting various levels
>> of criticality for comfortable termination
>> of flight. So you have dual electronic
>> ignition? Fine . . . are you comfortable
>> launching into the blue not having offered
>> the rest of your electro-whizzies the same
>> courtesies as your ignition systems? If not,
>> the does it not stand to reason that if
>> the rest of your 'critical' systems are
>> happy, so too will be your ignition systems?
>>
>> The optimal answer is 'fix the architecture'
>> and leave the batteries on the dealer's shelves.
>
> The Ignition is the critical item. I am comfortable loosing power to all the
electronics other than the ignition, therefore the electrical system architecture
is being designed to accommodate it.
>
>
>> Have you considered the fledgling architecture posted
>> here on the list a few weeks back . . . See
>>
>> https://tinyurl.com/qnzenca
>>
>
> Kind of......I considered the diagram but not the architecture. Dual alternators,
brownout bus, it seemed complex for my application. My perception is electrical
demands for EFI are large compared with my choice of ignition at 1.4A
total. Since both ignitions tied to a single battery was not failure tolerant
, the SureFly small second battery (12V 8Ahr is $50) seemed simple.
>
>
>> Let's do our homework and see if we can
>> figure out how to make your project fly
>> comfortably on one, judiciously maintained
>> battery . . . just has hundreds of thousands
>> of airplanes have flown for over a century.
>>
>
> So lets reconsider that as archetecure and see what we come up with.
>
> I have integrated the Architecture into my diagram, and removed the Aux Battery.
The load on the Engine bus will be less than 5A so I will use a switch instead
of a solenoid. I removed the Battery Bus to avoid a human error that might
deplete the battery out in the bush.
>
> If the power supply from the ALT side of the master solenoid fails, the engine
dies until the switch is flipped by reliable human action. Not ideal. A diode
to replace the switch eliminates human failure.
>
> The next step I see is to remove the engine bus, bolt both power wires to the
Battery side of the master solenoid. Now I am chasing my tail back to where
I was. But lets say I did that. If the Solenoid fails open, then the engine
is battery powered while the rest of the ship is powered by the alternator.
>
> I think you already discussed months ago, but it looks to me like the Engine
Bus duplicates the Essential bus.
>
> How am I doing?
>
> --------
> Brooks Cone
> Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
I certainly lack Bob's knowledge and experience, but for a minimalist
system, I like it. You could lose the switch between the main bus diode
and the Ess bus; the Ess bus would normally be fed from the main bus and
have 'required' avionics. If the alt fails, you'd close the switch
that's direct from the bat and open the master.
To avoid the issue of the master taking out both ignitions, I'd operate
with both the mstr and the engine bus direct feed switch closed (no harm
in feeding the eng bus from both ends at the same time). I'd keep the
Eng bus diode because I like redundant paths to critical stuff.
To address the backup alternator issue that Bob raised: My installation
uses auto style injection which requires a high pressure fuel pump (high
current demand) so I chose to use two full size alts. But if you're
running a carb and your electrical demands are quite low, I can
understand not adding a 2nd alt, from both financial and weight
standpoints. In my situation, with around 12A minimum needed to keep the
engine running, battery capacity to operate to fuel exhaustion (my
personal choice) would have weighed *much* more than an additional 8 lb
alternator, and would have cost more than my off-the-shelf auto
alternator, as well. But your low-demand system likely means that a
standard PC680 style battery could run to fuel exhaustion. (Caution: do
your load analysis, backed up by actual testing, and be sure you
understand the various demand/time curves for PC680 type batteries.)
Charlie
--
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual |
Electron
Here is the electrical diagram I=99m using for my aircraft. Dual
SDS EFI, single battery and dual alternators. This architecture is
Z12/13 modified and was originally drawn up by John Bright, we=99ve
been working together to improve it (in our opinion). This is version 4
and I=99m still making minor tweaks.
Since you have dual electronic ignition I would recommend either dual
batteries/single ALT or dual alternators/single battery. The SD8 that
Bob mentioned a few emails back is a great idea for a VFR bush plane.
Because even your VFR only Bearhawk is going to fly over inhospitable
terrain from time to time.
I know, I knowusing a VP-X is blasphemy. It came with the kit I
purchased from a friend.
PS..the Bearhawk Patrol is probably my next aircraft build.
Jeff Parker
> On 1Apr, 2020, at 13:39, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
<fransew@gmail.com>
>
> Why put a switch in series with the E-Bus diode?
> I suggest that switch be eliminated. If it is not installed, it can
not fail.
> -
> I suggest that a double pole switch be used for the engine bus switch.
> The second half of that switch can enable the engine start circuit.
> Properly wired, the engine bus switch must be on in order to start the
engine.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495528#495528
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Some thoughts on 'standby' batteries |
Hi Bob,
My last job working for a large blue chip company was part of the design
team for a nuclear submarine. As you can imagine some of the failure
scenarios in the risk register had some fairly catastrophic consequences. As
a result many sub-system owners sought to increase the reliability of their
functions by designing in back-up power supplies. As there was no overall
systems engineering lead (a failure of engineering management as much as
anything else) no-one had the required oversight to spot what was happening.
Before very long there were batteries for everything, with a huge
maintenance overhead (and their own failure scenarios). What was really
required was an electrical power policy at the ship level flowed down to
each sub-system, rather than the sub-systems driving what the ship was
doing. Eventually the high paid help realised what was happening and set in
place a painful (expensive, $$ and time) re-design that ended up having
quite far reaching impacts.
This has a direct parallel to OBAM aircraft. Many of the electro-whizzes on
offer include a back-up battery of some description. As the system design
authority for our own aircraft we have to be sufficiently smart to engineer
in power sources that meet our reliability goals, and not to be dictated to
by sub-system suppliers. That doesn't say back-up batteries in sub-systems
are necessarily bad, just that they have to earn they way onto the aircraft.
As ever the operational goals of the aircraft should dictate the systems
design and equipment selection.
Regards, Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
<owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: 01 April 2020 16:57
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Some thoughts on 'standby' batteries
--> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
Batteries have been an essential component of aircraft electrical systems
from day-one.
The first airborne electrics were battery powered by devices recharged after
every flight given that engine driven power sources were not yet prominent
fixtures. Indeed, wind-driven generators were more prevalent (read low power
and DRAG!).
Batteries were 'wet', produced fumes when charged. dribbled acid over
themselves and the airplane and had relatively short service lives. I.e.
they were a commodity like tires, oil and gasoline. Their reliability as a
power source depended on constant monitoring of condition.
While secondary (rechargeable) batteries have become much more efficient,
environmentally friendly, more per pound and cubic foot, they are still a
commodity. You cannot install a battery into any function expecting it to
perform as needed for more than a tiny fraction of the airframe service
life. Further, if loss of a battery-supported system adversely impacts
probability for comfortable termination of flight like fuel and oil . . .
the battery's condition demands reliable monitoring of condition for
continued airworthiness.
This is a burden on cost of ownership. It expands the operator's work load
for periodic and capable preventative maintenance peppered with the expense
of replacement on condition.
Design goals for elegant electrical systems architecture includes minimizing
the need for batteries in both number, size and expense.
The ultimate achievement for reduction of batteries might be (1) a battery
capable of but one start cycle and (2) sufficient capacity to operate
landing lights during the last 60 seconds of a dead-stick landing at night.
THAT battery might indeed be quite small and its cost of ownership very
nominal. It might even be cheap enough to simply replace it at every annual
. . . or perhaps every 100 hours just as you might change the oil. Thus
you've eliminate the need for time, effort and test equipment necessary to
conduct preventative maintenance on ship's battery(ies).
This line of reasoning sets the design goals for an electrical system
tailored to a project's engine, airframe, capabilities and planned missions.
One goal is to minimize singling out any particular set of loads as critical
but to consider the machine, pilot and flight environment as a system.
Over the past 30 years, a family of architectures have been proposed,
refined, published and applied to projects in the OBAM aviation community.
Some have served the builder's design goals well . . . others not so well.
It's an iterative evolutionary process that strives for demonstrable
success.
The proposed Z01 architecture takes into account the pronounced shift in
aircraft designs that incorporate multiple engine driven power sources,
electrically dependent engines and yes . . .
a desire to shed as much of the battery weight and cost of ownership as
practical.
Discussions here on the List and elsewhere are needed to ferret out any
failure to meet a design goal . . . not as SUPPLIERS of any particular
electro-whizzy but as USERS of those devices as components of the whole
FLIGHT SYSTEM.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron |
Bob, In figure Z-01, Should the brownout bus fuse be increased in size from 10
amps to 30 amps?
Since that fuse is in series with other fuses, we wouldn't want a short circuit
to blow two fuses.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495534#495534
Message 11
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| Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below.
The
complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
************************************************************
PLEASE READ. This document contains AeroElectric-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the AeroElectric-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the AeroElectric-List
running smoothly for all of us.
******************************************
*** Quick Start Guide to List Features ***
******************************************
There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each
one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator
you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this
List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
****************************************
*** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe ***
****************************************
Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and
select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You
may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of
your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the
complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information.
The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption
process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request
was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed.
You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
until you receive the second conformation email message.
*****************************
*** How to Post a Message ***
*****************************
Send an email message to:
aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
to the List.
*****************************************************
*** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post ***
*****************************************************
When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List:
smith@machine.domain.com
smith@domain.com
Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to
the List.
**************************************
*** Enclosure Support on the Lists ***
**************************************
Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets
is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these
are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the
content of enclosures.
These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
Lists:
1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists.
2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists.
3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site.
4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives.
5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature.
6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls
All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "aeroelectric-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the AeroElectric-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all AeroElectric-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the AeroElectric-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* AeroElectric-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?AeroElectric
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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