---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 04/02/20: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:46 AM - Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron (bcone1381) 2. 09:03 AM - Re: Some thoughts on 'standby' batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 09:11 AM - Re: Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 09:22 AM - Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron (bcone1381) 5. 09:28 AM - Re: New role for the E-Bus? (D Fritz) 6. 12:59 PM - Re: Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:53 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron From: "bcone1381" > Why settle for that . . . and the expenses associated > with it? When it might be easy to keep the whole > panel lit up? Simplicity was why I would settle for it. You say "Easy to keep it all lit up." A battery seemed simple and easy. I just read your "Thoughts on Standby Batteries." http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16775265 > > Do you have room for a second alternator? The > brownout bus is optional dependent on equipment > installed. So is the battery bus. Remember, these > are architecture drawings with features that > address specific needs . . . if the need doesn't > exist, the feature is deleted. > > The second alternator could be as small/light as > an SD8 . . . have you conducted a load analysis? > Do you KNOW what loads are supported under your > anticipated flight conditions? I am familiar with the SD8. It is the standby alternator of choice if thats the way I need to go. I have room for it. Load Analysis. Normal Continuous load is 6.57A. Normal Intermittent load is 2.5A for a single standby fuel pump. Essential "Battery only" load requirements is 2.74A The next quote regards the Alternate Engine Bus Switch > powered from what source? How long is the feeder from > that source to the switch? > The Engine Bus Alternate Power switch I proposed is powered from the battery side of the master solenoid, and would carry a max normal load of 1.8A. It would be 24 inches from the solenoid, and 24 from the Engine Bus. [quote] > The battery supports ALL loads in the event of > alternator failure. I agree. I was wrong. > Do you have any electro-whizzies that > address engine ops over and above > the ignition system(s)? How is this > airplane to be used? Night ops? Extended > cross-country over unfriendly terrain? > IFR? Engine Electro-Whizzes.....The engine is a Lycoming IO-360 fuel injected using mechanical Bendix RSA fuel injection and Mechanical Fuel Pump. The FI requires no electrical power for normal operation. It has a single backup electric fuel pump that is normally off. An Engine Monitoring System supplies all my engine instrumentation. There are no other engine related electro-whizzes. The mission is DAY VFR. The mission also includes Cross Country over unfriendly terrain. -------- Brooks Cone Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495543#495543 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:33 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Some thoughts on 'standby' batteries At 04:55 PM 4/1/2020, you wrote: > > >Hi Bob, > >Before very long there were batteries for everything, with a huge >maintenance overhead (and their own failure scenarios). What was really >required was an electrical power policy at the ship level flowed down to >each sub-system, rather than the sub-systems driving what the ship was >doing. Eventually the high paid help realised what was happening and set in >place a painful (expensive, $$ and time) re-design that ended up having >quite far reaching impacts. Yup . . . a story repeated countless times when legacy systems are burdened with new requirements for reliability. I try to avoid that condition for our readers by striving for architectures that are unlikely to come up short in the future. >As ever the operational goals of the aircraft should dictate the systems >design and equipment selection. Absolutely . . . Which is why I encourage attention (1) making every bus 'reliable' and/or (2) not driving an 'essential' accessory from a minimally reliable source. The OBAM aviation supplier cannot know the technical acumen of every customer which no doubt drives their decisions/suggestions for adding batteries. Klaus advocated for an auxiliary battery to support his LightSpeed ignition products. The N811HB accident carried LightSpeed ignition installed contrary to both Klaus's -AND- AeroElectric recommendations. He was a defendant in the original filing of lawsuits but ultimately joined my client as plaintiff as the technical details of the case unfolded. I've often recommended that builders 'follow the manufacturer's instructions' when the conversation ponders departure from the printed instructions. So I'll have to be mindful of that 'rule' when encouraging our readers to do their homework such that departures from instruction are supported by good science and tribal knowledge. Thank you for your enduring participation on the List! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:11:43 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron At 06:09 PM 4/1/2020, you wrote: > >Bob, In figure Z-01, Should the brownout bus fuse be increased in >size from 10 amps to 30 amps? >Since that fuse is in series with other fuses, we wouldn't want a >short circuit to blow two fuses. Good observation . . . fuses, wire sizes and bus loads are evolving . . . Speaking of evolution, I'm still wrestling with the notion of driving the crowbar ov breaker bus extension through a ATC fuse on the fuseblock. I cannot guarantee that every future builder would use a breaker having I(squared)t characteristics small enough to avoid popping that fuse. The fusible link is still the stone simple, most convenient way to bring power from the fuseblock terminal to the circuit breaker. I'm researching sources for on-purpose fusible link wire in bulk. Much more convenient . . . than the legacy kits we introduced 20+ years ago. Keep up the discerning observations my friend! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:56 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron From: "bcone1381" > Why put a switch in series with the E-Bus diode? > I suggest that switch be eliminated. If it is not installed, it can not fail. Merely Personal preference.....I like an avionics switch. The avionics will be on the essential bus. In Bob's book he says that an avionics switch is a single point failure for every item on the avionics bus. This design fixes that senecio. The Switch and the Diode are used between the main and essential buses to avoid the main bus from ever drawing power through the essential bus. -------- Brooks Cone Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495555#495555 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:28:57 AM PST US From: D Fritz Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New role for the E-Bus? Bob, It=99s been a while since you posted your Z99P1 and I=99ve been having problems posting to the list. I like your proposed architecture. It appears to be a nice evolutionary st ep from previous architectures and maintains much of the Z12/8 simplicity. Allowing the backup alternator to bypass the main contactor as you =99ve shown appears to me to provide a fully redundant path to powering the Poly E-bus. I=99m running one electronic ignition and one mag on my IO-360 with conventional injection. This Z99P1 looks good for my use. Dan Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:51 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron At 11:20 AM 4/2/2020, you wrote: > > > > Why put a switch in series with the E-Bus diode? > > I suggest that switch be eliminated. If it is not installed, it > can not fail. > > >Merely Personal preference.....I like an avionics switch. The >avionics will be on the essential bus. > >In Bob's book he says that an avionics switch is a single point >failure for every item on the avionics bus. This design fixes that >senecio. The Switch and the Diode are used between the main and >essential buses to avoid the main bus from ever drawing power >through the essential bus. . . . except the avionics master has offered no value in the operation or cost of ownership in aircraft for about 40 years . . . maybe more. 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