Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:29 AM - Re: Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 08:43 AM - SL30 Serial Connection (Dan Fritz)
3. 08:52 AM - Re: New role for the E-Bus? (Dan Fritz)
4. 08:59 AM - Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron (eschlanser)
5. 12:13 PM - Re: Re: New role for the E-Bus? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 01:03 PM - Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron (bcone1381)
7. 02:11 PM - Re: New role for the E-Bus? (Dan Fritz)
8. 03:29 PM - Dan's architecture question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 03:31 PM - Re: Re: New role for the E-Bus? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 03:59 PM - Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron (bcone1381)
11. 05:24 PM - Re: Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron (Charlie England)
12. 05:40 PM - Re: Re: New role for the E-Bus? (don van santen)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual |
Electron
At 08:45 AM 4/2/2020, you wrote:
>
>
> > Why settle for that . . . and the expenses associated
> > with it? When it might be easy to keep the whole
> > panel lit up?
>
>
>Simplicity was why I would settle for it. You say "Easy to keep it
>all lit up." A battery seemed simple and easy.
Okay, this is a bush plane. I presume you are
hoping to launch pleasurable excursions into
territories where being able to 'get back'
is a whole lot more important that 'getting
there'.
Cranking battery expectations in bush aircraft
are second only in magnitude to batteries
in float planes. Imagine just having pushed
away from the mooring only to find yourself
at the mercy of wind and currents!
Given that circumstance, I trust you're
planning on periodic battery capacity and load
checks with protocols that call for battery
replacement long before it becomes a risk?
So under what conditions would that battery
become unavailable for running at least one
if not both ignition systems?
Further, given the size of your engine,
do I surmise that the ship's battery is
going to be rather robust in the first
place?
The 1 mA parasitic drain of an ignition
system in the OFF condition would consume
1 Ah of energy every 40 days . . . a trivial
concern suggesting that disconnecting that
load from the battery is of little value
except during long term storage of the
airplane . . . which could be managed
by pulling a fuse.
An SD8 standby alternator would weigh
less than an 8Ah battery, requires
close to zero preventative maintenance
and carry 8+ amps of load as long as the
fan is running. Given your stated running
loads, the SD8 would keep things lit up
until you run out of gas, a PC680 battery
at minimum capacity for continued airworthiness
would carry your 7A load for 0.8 x 120
minutes . . . one way or another, you'll
be on the ground long before the panel
goes dark.
A standby battery wired for the sole
purpose of supporting one ignition system
is something akin to what must be millions
of first-aid kits bought and carried around
by a worrying public . . . never having
been needed to salve a skinned knee or
band-aid some small injury . . . if ever.
If it were my airplane, I'd go for Z13-8
with both ignitions on the E-bus. Since
the e-bus is cold when parked, no controls
on ignition power are needed. FMEA for
Z13-8 is about as robust as anything you
can install . . . those ignition systems
are never going to be deprived of necessary
power.
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | SL30 Serial Connection |
Hello all, Im wiring up my panel and connecting an SL30 nav/com to my MGL iEFIS.
It appears my SL30 is not transmitting over the RS-232 serial line to the
iEFIS, so I checked my wiring and it appears the SL30 has its serial transmit
line internally grounded. This doesnt appear correct to me, but before sending
the unit back to Garmin for repair$, I thought Id see if anyone here on the
list has seen this before and could give any advice.
Thanks in advance,
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495584#495584
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| Subject: | Re: New role for the E-Bus? |
Moving this to the correct thread. Anyone see any issues with Bob's new/proposed
architecture for an IO-360 with one mag and one electronic ignition? Would
folks recommend the ignition be on the Battery bus?
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z99P1.pdf
thanks
********************
Bob,
Its been a while since you posted your Z99P1 and Ive been having problems posting
to the list.
I like your proposed architecture. It appears to be a nice evolutionary step from
previous architectures and maintains much of the Z12/8 simplicity. Allowing
the backup alternator to bypass the main contactor as youve shown appears to
me to provide a fully redundant path to powering the Poly E-bus. Im running
one electronic ignition and one mag on my IO-360 with conventional injection.
This Z99P1 looks good for my use.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495585#495585
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| Subject: | Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron |
>
> Have you considered the fledgling architecture posted
> here on the list a few weeks back . . . See
>
> https://tinyurl.com/qnzenca
Bob or anyone, can someone please point me to the messages about the Z01 architecture
posted here on the list a few weeks back? I must have missed it and have
searched but cannot find them. Thanks in advance,
Eric
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495586#495586
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| Subject: | Re: New role for the E-Bus? |
At 10:49 AM 4/3/2020, you wrote:
>
>Moving this to the correct thread. Anyone see any issues with Bob's
>new/proposed architecture for an IO-360 with one mag and one
>electronic ignition? Would folks recommend the ignition be on the Battery bus?
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z99P1.pdf
That was not so much a 'proposal' as the
seed for the evolution of a replacement
for Z12 . . . dual alternator, single battery,
electrically dependent engine.
The Z99 was a first pass sketch that ultimately
moved to the proposal/discussion stage
with Z01.
Z01P3 as presently posted is the latest iteration
and as Joe noted, still needs the 'nits' combed
out.
https://tinyurl.com/qnzenca
No bus requires more than powering up the aircraft
with DC power master switch to become HOT. Any
time the main bus is up, all busses are up
irrespective the position of any other switch.
Given two, robust alternators, the endurance-
bus function is unnecessary. There is no time
that one might expect to operate battery
only.
There is a 'brownout' bus which is optional
and could be 'boosted' during cranking if
the airplane is fitted with any electro-whizzies
vulnerable to cranking brownout. At a minimum,
this bus might power the #1 comm transceiver
whereupon the crew controlled, alternate feed to this
bus could be used to power up just that radio
to get clearance delivery (an optional feature
going into Bonanzas and Barons while I was
still working there).
If the system supports no devices needing
always hot battery power, the battery bus
can also be eliminated. The minimalist
configuration for Z01 would be a MAIN
and ENGINE bus.
The engine bus also features an crew controlled,
alternate feed directly from the battery. There
is no single failure of the power system that
would cause loss of engine.
There are only 4 switches of which only one
has profound control over the status of ship's
power. The other 3 are normally OFF pending
failures that prompt reconfiguration.
Suggested accessories go to simplifying
installation while minimizing costs
and potential pilot workloads.
If the List is willing, I'd like to continue
to refine this configuration with an eye
to retiring Z12 and probably Z14 as well.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron |
> Cranking battery expectations in bush aircraft
> are second only in magnitude to batteries
> in float planes.
>
> Given that circumstance, I trust you're
> planning on periodic battery capacity and load
> checks with protocols that call for battery
> replacement long before it becomes a risk?
>
Your book helped me understand the great value of Battery Checks, so much so that
I am now evangelistic on the topic. The crowd believes If the starter cranks
it Good! and tough to reason with. Its a Cognitive Bias issue we all are susceptible
to.
Bob, You understand our need for guidance. Thank you for your Leadership that
enables us. Thinking "Bush Mission" alone helps clarify things a great deal
> So under what conditions would that battery
> become unavailable for running at least one
> if not both ignition systems?
>
In the bush.....on the ground and in the air.
On the ground in the bush, the battery will be unavailable from running the ignition
if I shut down and leave the master switch on for ten hours with an 0.8A
draw on the master solenoid. A distraction before completing the shut down flow
is a likely cause. This may be that I
-go to sleep or
-go on a long hike or
-go fly fishing.
(A solid state solenoid with a milliamp draw discussion will take us off topic.)
In the Air....
Our rules are one single failure at at time when playing the what if game. In
the air, if that single failure is the alternator, then the engine keeps running
until battery exhaustion. By downloading the main bus I get about 80% of 6
hours. Then the alternator powers the engine bus even if
-One of five bolts at the battery, ground, solenoid or engine bus loosens.
-Open Circuit in one of three wires.
-Battery failure
Max range in the Patrol is 9 hours. Alaska and Northern Canada will utilize more
than 6 hours.
> The 1 mA parasitic drain of an ignition
> system in the OFF condition would consume
> 1 Ah of energy every 40 days . . . a trivial
> concern suggesting that disconnecting that
> load from the battery is of little value
> except during long term storage of the
> airplane . . . which could be managed
> by pulling a fuse.
>
Those were my thoughts. Ill have a Battery maintainer at the hangar and can otherwise
manage this small drain.
> An SD8 standby alternator would weigh
> less than an 8Ah battery, requires
> close to zero preventative maintenance
> and carry 8+ amps of load as long as the
> fan is running. Given your stated running
> loads, the SD8 would keep things lit up
> until you run out of gas, a PC680 battery
> at minimum capacity for continued airworthiness
> would carry your 7A load for 0.8 x 120
> minutes . . . one way or another, you'll
> be on the ground long before the panel
> goes dark.
>
> A standby battery wired for the sole
> purpose of supporting one ignition system
> is something akin to what must be millions
> of first-aid kits bought and carried around
> by a worrying public . . . never having
> been needed to salve a skinned knee or
> band-aid some small injury . . . if ever.
>
> If it were my airplane, I'd go for Z13-8
> with both ignitions on the E-bus. Since
> the e-bus is cold when parked, no controls
> on ignition power are needed. FMEA for
> Z13-8 is about as robust as anything you
> can install . . . those ignition systems
> are never going to be deprived of necessary
> power.
>
I attached an image of the Z13-8 architecture combined with the engine bus of Z-01.
This answers your questions. Now, I'll post this and then study my digram
and ask a few questions for the listening audience.
Brooks
--------
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495589#495589
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0524_197.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: New role for the E-Bus? |
Bob,
Maybe it's in there, but if one has to power down the main bus due to smoke/fumes,
is the Engine Bus then relegated to battery duration only? Is this an argument
for having the aux alternator feed on the other side of the battery contactor?
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495591#495591
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| Subject: | Dan's architecture question |
At 10:49 AM 4/3/2020, you wrote:
>
>Moving this to the correct thread. Anyone see any issues with Bob's
>new/proposed architecture for an IO-360 with one mag and one
>electronic ignition? Would folks recommend the ignition be on the
>Battery bus?
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z99P1.pdf
>
>thanks
>
>********************
>
>Bob,
>It's been a while since you posted your Z99P1 and I've been having
>problems posting to the list.
>
>I like your proposed architecture. It appears to be a nice
>evolutionary step from previous architectures and maintains much of
>the Z12/8 simplicity. Allowing the backup alternator to bypass the
>main contactor as you've shown appears to me to provide a fully
>redundant path to powering the Poly E-bus. I'm running one
>electronic ignition and one mag on my IO-360 with conventional
>injection. This Z99P1 looks good for my use.
Have you made a list of your total loads?
How do you plan to use this airplane?
Night? IFR? Long distances over unfriendly
terrain?
Why wouldn't Z13/8 meet your needs with
a lot less fuss?
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: New role for the E-Bus? |
At 04:07 PM 4/3/2020, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>Maybe it's in there, but if one has to power down the main bus due
>to smoke/fumes, is the Engine Bus then relegated to battery duration
>only? Is this an argument for having the aux alternator feed on the
>other side of the battery contactor?
Still ruminating over that issue in Z01 . . .
is Z13/8 too small for you?
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual Electron |
Nuckolls says
1) Things break
2) Design the system so that when things break no immediate hazard is created.
3) Things needed for comfortable termination of flight requires back up or special
consideration to insure operation and availability.
With that in mind, here are some thoughts on my crude block diagram in post #19
where I combined Z13/8 architecture with the dual feeder engine bus portion
of Z01.Think of each point as an individual hypothesis. The musings do not build
on themselves.
First, lets keep the engine running and consider the ENGINE BUS
1) The normal switch position for the ALT ENG BUS Feed must be open to prevent
power feeding the battery through the ENG BUS.
2) I desire to place the ENG BUS firewall forward but I have reliability concerns
due to water, heat, oil pollutants in the engine compartment. There must be
an Ugly Environment fuse holder out there on the market place.
3)What If Smoke enters the Cockpit plus acrid smell of electrical due to wrench
that falls onto the E-bus. Typical Procedures might be BATT Master off, ALT
off. But now Engine dies with the ALT ENG BUS FEED open which is the normal position.
This Violates Rule #2.
Possible Resolutions
1) Source the Normal ENG BUS Feed circuit from the BATT side of Master Solenoid
thru a diode instead of the ALT side of the solenoid. Source its alternate feed
from the ALT side of the Master Solenoid through a switch.
I see a problemthe diode failure shuts down the engine.
2) Source the Normal Feed to ENG BUS from the BATT side of the Batt Master Solenoid
without a switch or a doiode or alternate feed circuit.
Consequence, the engine bus has no alternate feed. Seems reliable but It violates
Rule #3.
3)Remove the Engine Bus, then power each ignition from different sources.
Attach one Ignition power supply directly to the Battery using a simple ring terminal,
and attach the other Ignitions ring terminal to one of the following
-BATT side of the Battery Master Solenoid, or
-the E-BUS terminal bolt, or
-the ALT side of the Master Solenoid.
This eliminates having all your engines in one basket. Any single failure will
not create an immediate hazard.
4) Maybe a bus is overkill for merely two 0.7A circuits.
E-BUS
Remove the in-line fuse on the BATT - E BUS circuit to improve reliability. The
Z-11 has no fuse from the Batt to the Batt Bus, but a 7A fuse on the Batt Bus
- Ess Bus circuit. (I dont know what is prudent and a best practice.)
--------
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
Read this topic online here:
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| Subject: | Re: Z11 "Generic Electrical system" with Dual |
Electron
On 4/2/2020 11:08 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 06:09 PM 4/1/2020, you wrote:
>>
>> Bob, In figure Z-01, Should the brownout bus fuse be increased in
>> size from 10 amps to 30 amps?
>> Since that fuse is in series with other fuses, we wouldn't want a
>> short circuit to blow two fuses.
>
> Good observation . . . fuses, wire sizes and bus
> loads are evolving . . .
>
> Speaking of evolution, I'm still wrestling with the
> notion of driving the crowbar ov breaker bus extension
> through a ATC fuse on the fuseblock. I cannot guarantee
> that every future builder would use a breaker having
> I(squared)t characteristics small enough to avoid
> popping that fuse.
>
> The fusible link is still the stone simple, most
> convenient way to bring power from the fuseblock
> terminal to the circuit breaker. I'm researching
> sources for on-purpose fusible link wire in bulk.
> Much more convenient . . . than the legacy kits
> we introduced 20+ years ago.
>
> Keep up the discerning observations my friend!
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Hot rod shops likely have anything we'd need for fusible links. Here's
Summit's selection; everything from #10 to #18:
https://www.summitracing.com/search?SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=fusible%20link%20wirees
I really like the idea of using them, especially for critical things
like the feeder to the engine bus.
I've already set up an ATC fuse block with individual fuses for each
injector and ignition coil, but I'm tempted to replace those fuses with
fusible links. I might be wrong, but it's easy to see the links as even
more reliable than ATC fuses, especially on that type of appliance that
has a repetitive very sharp current spike, rather than a relatively
continuous load.
Charlie
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: New role for the E-Bus? |
Bob,
I have a dual EFIS dual P-MAG Z 12 system. My Pmags are wired using
the locking version of the 2-10 switch Switch down, master on,
ignition is powered but shorted, switch centered ignition powered,
not shorted, switch up, ignition not powered not shorted. The aircraft
has flown for years with this setup.
The EFIS's have separate power and standby battery ports. The efis
will not boot if only the standby port is powered.. Once the efis
comes on line it will remain online as long as power is applied to
the standby port. I am currently using a TCW 6 A standby battery to
power the efis standby ports. The switch to backup power is not
automatic, the efis starts a count down when main power fails, any
button on the efis being pusher stops the count down and switches the
efis to backup power. Once this mode is entered there is no way to
shut the efis off without turning the backup battery off. This is done
by a ground switch (separate from the main ground wire that provides
the return to the battery) sorry I can not figure a better way to say
that.
My GPS navigator browns out on each start up.
I never talk to clearance delivery before starting the engine and with
the P-Mags, I do not need an engine bus. I also do not have a battery
bus.
I like the idea of ditching the backup battery and using a backup bus.
I am not familiar with the brown out booster and would like ore
information and possible articles about this device.. Thanks in
advance. Don
On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 12:22 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> At 10:49 AM 4/3/2020, you wrote:
>
>
> Moving this to the correct thread. Anyone see any issues with Bob's new/proposed
architecture for an IO-360 with one mag and one electronic ignition? Would
folks recommend the ignition be on the Battery bus?
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z99P1.pdf
>
>
> That was not so much a 'proposal' as the
> seed for the evolution of a replacement
> for Z12 . . . dual alternator, single battery,
> electrically dependent engine.
>
> The Z99 was a first pass sketch that ultimately
> moved to the proposal/discussion stage
> with Z01.
>
> Z01P3 as presently posted is the latest iteration
> and as Joe noted, still needs the 'nits' combed
> out.
>
> https://tinyurl.com/qnzenca
>
> No bus requires more than powering up the aircraft
> with DC power master switch to become HOT. Any
> time the main bus is up, all busses are up
> irrespective the position of any other switch.
>
> Given two, robust alternators, the endurance-
> bus function is unnecessary. There is no time
> that one might expect to operate battery
> only.
>
> There is a 'brownout' bus which is optional
> and could be 'boosted' during cranking if
> the airplane is fitted with any electro-whizzies
> vulnerable to cranking brownout. At a minimum,
> this bus might power the #1 comm transceiver
> whereupon the crew controlled, alternate feed to this
> bus could be used to power up just that radio
> to get clearance delivery (an optional feature
> going into Bonanzas and Barons while I was
> still working there).
>
> If the system supports no devices needing
> always hot battery power, the battery bus
> can also be eliminated. The minimalist
> configuration for Z01 would be a MAIN
> and ENGINE bus.
>
> The engine bus also features an crew controlled,
> alternate feed directly from the battery. There
> is no single failure of the power system that
> would cause loss of engine.
>
> There are only 4 switches of which only one
> has profound control over the status of ship's
> power. The other 3 are normally OFF pending
> failures that prompt reconfiguration.
>
> Suggested accessories go to simplifying
> installation while minimizing costs
> and potential pilot workloads.
>
> If the List is willing, I'd like to continue
> to refine this configuration with an eye
> to retiring Z12 and probably Z14 as well.
>
>
> Bob . . .
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