---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 04/08/20: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:08 AM - Re: Re: New role for the E-Bus? (don van santen) 2. 10:23 AM - Re: Re: New role for the E-Bus? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 10:37 AM - Re: New role for the E-Bus? (user9253) 4. 10:38 AM - Re: Re: New role for the E-Bus? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: New role for the E-Bus? (don van santen) 6. 12:38 PM - Re: Re: New role for the E-Bus? (C&K) 7. 04:55 PM - Re: Revmaster R2300 Ignition (user9253) 8. 05:06 PM - Re: Re: New role for the E-Bus? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 05:16 PM - Re: Re: Revmaster R2300 Ignition (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 05:29 PM - Re: Revmaster R2300 Ignition (dj_theis) 11. 06:05 PM - Re: Re: New role for the E-Bus? (don van santen) 12. 07:18 PM - Re: Incandescent to led conversion for B&C alternator controllers (Tim Jennings) 13. 08:24 PM - Re: Re: New role for the E-Bus? (Pat Little) 14. 09:33 PM - Re: Incandescent to led conversion for B&C alternator controller (johnbright) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:08:56 AM PST US From: don van santen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: New role for the E-Bus? Hi Bob, This is my second reply to this thread. You did not answer my first reply, maybe you missed it. I like the Z01 architecture but would also like Z12 to stay available. I have a dual AFS efis system and and an Avidyne 540 gps navigator. The AFS systems have primary and back up power inputs' The system will only boot when power is applied to the normal power input ports. The back up system is a TCW backup battery. It switches on when voltage drops below 13.1 volts. The backup system is on at all times that the engine is not running. The backup can be turned off via a switch that a ground wire passes through. So the system is in charge mode above 13.1 volts and below that voltage the standby is in output mode I turn the standby off when I power the master down and back on then I turn the master on. is means that the backup battery is only functioning as a brown out protection device. The Avidyne does not have separate backup power input ports. My question is whether the brown out booster shown in Z-01 is capable of powering two efis systems and a a gps navigator during engine start? If more information is needed please let me know what you would need to answer my question. Thanks in advance. Don On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 12:22 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 10:49 AM 4/3/2020, you wrote: > > > Moving this to the correct thread. Anyone see any issues with Bob's new/proposed architecture for an IO-360 with one mag and one electronic ignition? Would folks recommend the ignition be on the Battery bus? > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z99P1.pdf > > > That was not so much a 'proposal' as the > seed for the evolution of a replacement > for Z12 . . . dual alternator, single battery, > electrically dependent engine. > > The Z99 was a first pass sketch that ultimately > moved to the proposal/discussion stage > with Z01. > > Z01P3 as presently posted is the latest iteration > and as Joe noted, still needs the 'nits' combed > out. > > https://tinyurl.com/qnzenca > > No bus requires more than powering up the aircraft > with DC power master switch to become HOT. Any > time the main bus is up, all busses are up > irrespective the position of any other switch. > > Given two, robust alternators, the endurance- > bus function is unnecessary. There is no time > that one might expect to operate battery > only. > > There is a 'brownout' bus which is optional > and could be 'boosted' during cranking if > the airplane is fitted with any electro-whizzies > vulnerable to cranking brownout. At a minimum, > this bus might power the #1 comm transceiver > whereupon the crew controlled, alternate feed to this > bus could be used to power up just that radio > to get clearance delivery (an optional feature > going into Bonanzas and Barons while I was > still working there). > > If the system supports no devices needing > always hot battery power, the battery bus > can also be eliminated. The minimalist > configuration for Z01 would be a MAIN > and ENGINE bus. > > The engine bus also features an crew controlled, > alternate feed directly from the battery. There > is no single failure of the power system that > would cause loss of engine. > > There are only 4 switches of which only one > has profound control over the status of ship's > power. The other 3 are normally OFF pending > failures that prompt reconfiguration. > > Suggested accessories go to simplifying > installation while minimizing costs > and potential pilot workloads. > > If the List is willing, I'd like to continue > to refine this configuration with an eye > to retiring Z12 and probably Z14 as well. > > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:35 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: New role for the E-Bus? At 09:51 PM 4/7/2020, you wrote: >Bob, > >are you talking about the start solenoid coil circuit or the starter >motor circuit? > The spirit and intent of a crew controlled, master power disconnect feature is to make as much of the aircraft electrically cold when in the OFF position. As it was presented to me (many moons ago) the benefits were two-fold: (1) reduced risk for post-crash fire and (2) ground/maintenance safety - no chance for inadvertent motion of machinery or hazards sparks during maintenance ops. The exceptions called for feeders off the battery bus protected at no more than 5A. I've endeavored to embrace that philosophy. First as a requirement of my job (TC aircraft) and later (OBAM aircraft) because it was not a BAD idea. It was easy to implement and not a significant impediment to crafting elegant architectures. Z01 as currently proposed ties the aux alternator b-lead to the battery via fusible link. This sorta resurrects the old Z13/8 which 'bugged' me based on my professional experience. Nonetheless, an always-hot, aux alternator b-lead offered a way to simply implement the three-layered source philosophies of Z13/8 and Z13/20. I'm going to publish the 4th iteration of Z01 in the next few days. I've got a 7th grade grandson sheltering-in-place and spooling up online schooling. Man! I don't think I'd ever have the patience to wrestle with a room full of 7th graders! One is entirely enough! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:37:00 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: New role for the E-Bus? From: "user9253" Don, it is up to the builder to choose suitable components. eBay has several DC-DC converters (brown out boosters). Most of them are made in China and the product capabilities are greatly exaggerated. The the advertised rating might twice of the product's actual capacity. Buyer beware. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495698#495698 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:38:55 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: New role for the E-Bus? At 02:05 AM 4/8/2020, you wrote: > > >Hi Bob, This is my second reply to this thread. You did not answer my >first reply, maybe you missed it. sorry . . . yes >I like the Z01 architecture but would also like Z12 to stay available. . . . Z12 isn't going to 'go away'. It simply moves down the hierarchy of preference for elegance in architecture. It may not appear in later editions of the 'Connecton but there's thousands of paper copies and unknown digital copies that will continue to illustrate and explain Z12. Elegance, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder . . . if preferences depicted in my publications don't rise to your own standards for elegance . . . no problem! Except for the aux alternator b-lead terminator, Z01 is fundamentally identical to Z12. >I have a dual AFS efis system and and an Avidyne 540 gps navigator. >The AFS systems have primary and back up power inputs' > is means that the backup battery is only functioning as a >brown out protection device. The Avidyne does not have separate backup >power input ports. > >My question is whether the brown out booster shown in Z-01 is capable >of powering two efis systems and a a gps navigator during engine >start? If more information is needed please let me know what you would >need to answer my question. The brownout booster is an off the shelf step up power supply which can be acquired in any needed size. What is the total running current for powered-up devices on your proposed brown-out bus? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:53:23 AM PST US From: don van santen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: New role for the E-Bus? Thanks Bob and Joe. I did not know these devices are available. I thought it was something Bob had designed. My bad. I will need to look up the measured currents for the two EFIS's and the Avidyne navigator. Again, thanks for the help and the numbers will follow in a few days. Don On Wed, Apr 8, 2020, 10:43 user9253 wrote: > > Don, it is up to the builder to choose suitable components. eBay has > several > DC-DC converters (brown out boosters). Most of them are made in China > and the product capabilities are greatly exaggerated. The the advertised > rating might twice of the product's actual capacity. Buyer beware. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495698#495698 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:38:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: New role for the E-Bus? From: C&K On 08/04/2020 1:32 PM, user9253 wrote: > > Don, it is up to the builder to choose suitable components. eBay has several > DC-DC converters (brown out boosters). Most of them are made in China > and the product capabilities are greatly exaggerated. The the advertised > rating might twice of the product's actual capacity. Buyer beware. > > -------- > Joe Gores > I have found that such ebay ratings may be reasonable IF additional heat sinks or forced air cooling is used. It can take a little digging to figure that out though as the final ebay re-seller may not mention those details and may not be aware of them or understand them. For short duty cycles it may not matter anyway. Off topic quote (probably from a teacher) regarding Bob K's comment on the seventh grade student. "with all the students at home these days, it is just possible that a whole bunch of parents are going to realize that the teacher is NOT the problem..." ;) Ken do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:15 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Revmaster R2300 Ignition From: "user9253" Why not eliminate the toggle switches and relays and only use the mag switch? It seems that more components will increase the chances of ignition failure. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495704#495704 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:30 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: New role for the E-Bus? At 01:47 PM 4/8/2020, you wrote: >Thanks Bob and Joe. I did not know these devices >are available. I thought it was something Bob >had designed. My bad. I will need to look up the >measured currents for the two EFIS's and the >Avidyne navigator.=C2 Again, thanks for the help >and the numbers will follow in a few days. >Don When you've got those numbers, let me dig through the samples I have on hand. We may just have the device you need. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:16:12 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Revmaster R2300 Ignition At 06:49 PM 4/8/2020, you wrote: > >Why not eliminate the toggle switches and relays and only use the mag switch? > It seems that more components will increase the chances of ignition failure. From the installation literature I surmise that this engine has a rather comprehensive ign-test protocol orchestrated with various combinations of the four modules being OFF/ON. It lets you detect a failure of any single ignition module out of eight . . . rather clever . . . but it sho doesn't play nice with your grandpa's keyswitch! I've been stirring the murky options but haven't had a eureka moment . . . but to be sure, adding relays is waayyy down on the list of options. This makes the engine electrically dependent if only to gracefully orchestrate OFF-PREFLIGHT-RUN conditions. Methinks a DC-Free control system is much to be desired. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:29:38 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Revmaster R2300 Ignition From: "dj_theis" Thanks for the response Joe, >Why not eliminate the toggle switches and relays and only use the mag >switch? >It seems that more components will increase the chances of ignition failure Agreed, but the Revmaster requires 4 individual "pull to ground" switches. All aviation switches available only have two "P" lead circuits, right? Two 700- 2-3 switches achieve the Revmaster requirement/suggestion for four - single pole switches. That is how I originally drew the ckt. Two more 700-2-7 provided the circuits to execute their diagnostic routine described in the write up (shown in the last version I posted). The simple thing is to use the 4 switches for the ignition, have a key switch if I felt the need (for false security) to power the start circuit only (no mag check through the key) and just a simple push button start. Like the C120 I flew for my tail wheel endorsement. It always made me grumble when I would go to start the 120 and rotate the key switch to engage the starter, with the only noise I would hear was my tail wheel instructor chuckling under his breath because I forgot it had a push button start (again). Yes, adding the relays and implementing a scheme to have it "behave" like a traditional magneto ignition may be a little too cute. Assuming it would operate reliably. Thanks once again for your time and consideration. -------- Scratch building Sonex #1362 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495707#495707 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:05:55 PM PST US From: don van santen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: New role for the E-Bus? Thank you. On Wed, Apr 8, 2020, 17:13 Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 01:47 PM 4/8/2020, you wrote: > > Thanks Bob and Joe. I did not know these devices are available. I thought > it was something Bob had designed. My bad. I will need to look up the > measured currents for the two EFIS's and the Avidyne navigator.=C3=82 Ag ain, > thanks for the help and the numbers will follow in a few days. > Don > > > When you've got those numbers, let me > dig through the samples I have on hand. > We may just have the device you need. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:24 PM PST US From: Tim Jennings Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Incandescent to led conversion for B&C alternator controllers I appreciate everyone's help weighing in on my led conversion but unfortunately the solution http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LR3_LV_Led_1.jpg did not yield a working result. On the bench the prescribed setup with the resistors and led will light glow with less than 12 volts. This is the what I installed using (2) 470 ohm 1/2 watt resistors: https://photos.google.com/u/1/album/AF1QipO48K-4aac4ebIgVK0cW2M1K4pc6PHraYVAbI1-/photo/AF1QipOu4ngJUoHPeIDtJfU9exkR_yqEuci58p2X84yy Meter across the leads south of resistors: https://photos.google.com/u/1/album/AF1QipO48K-4aac4ebIgVK0cW2M1K4pc6PHraYVAbI1-/photo/AF1QipNqgRle3wwH-JKK5UUHj96cDbfPjq7Atb2JyfnZ The incandescent bulb glows fine when installed, unplug the incandescent lamp and plug the led/resistors into the circuit and NO light. Please help! Thanks, Tim Jennings ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:24:07 PM PST US From: Pat Little Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: New role for the E-Bus? Bob, I'm surprised by your suggestion to " buy from folks like the AeroElectic Connection" - I have been reading in "the book" and many of your web articles about products the Aeroelectric Connection sold - but it all seemed to be in the past. I say that because I haven't been able to find any of these products on your website. But now you said it in a recent email so it must be true - how do I order form you? Pat On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 9:59 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > When purchasing contactors, legacy name brands > are the best bet. Or buy from folks like > the AeroElectic Connection (lifetime satisfaction > warranty) or B&C (will bend over backwards to > keep you happy) and you'll get a product > with a track record. Digikey et als only > sell name brand parts supported by spec sheets > NEVER offered by fly-by-night supplier/manufacturers > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:27 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Incandescent to led conversion for B&C alternator controller From: "johnbright" photos don't work -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360 Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F. john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495716#495716 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.