---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 04/09/20: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:38 AM - Re: Incandescent to led conversion for B&C alternator controller (Tim Jennings) 2. 04:38 AM - Re: Incandescent to led conversion for B&C alternator controller (Tim Jennings) 3. 05:24 AM - Re: Incandescent to led conversion for B&C alternator controller (johnbright) 4. 06:00 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 04/08/20 (Tim Jennings) 5. 06:00 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 04/08/20 (Tim Jennings) 6. 06:07 AM - Re: Re: Incandescent to led conversion for B&C alternator controller (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 06:41 AM - New Design Schemes and Brownout Operation (wsimpso1) 8. 09:02 AM - Curiosity Re: Master Switch (bcone1381) 9. 09:11 AM - Re: New Design Schemes and Brownout Operation (Foghorn Inc) 10. 09:34 AM - Re: Curiosity Re: Master Switch (David Saylor) 11. 09:38 AM - Re: Curiosity Re: Master Switch (Sebastien) 12. 10:16 AM - Re: New Design Schemes and Brownout Operation (user9253) 13. 10:38 AM - Re: Re: Incandescent to led conversion for B&C alternator controller (John) 14. 11:01 AM - Re: Curiosity Re: Master Switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 11:05 AM - Re: Curiosity Re: Master Switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 11:09 AM - Re: Re: Incandescent to led conversion for B&C alternator controller (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 11:10 AM - Re: New Design Schemes and Brownout Operation (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 11:17 AM - Re: Re: New role for the E-Bus? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 05:11 PM - Re: New Design Schemes and Brownout Operation (wsimpso1) 20. 06:19 PM - Re: Re: New Design Schemes and Brownout Operation (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:38:21 AM PST US From: Tim Jennings Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Incandescent to led conversion for B&C alternator controller I appreciate everyone's help weighing in on my led conversion but unfortunately the solution http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LR3_LV_Led_1.jpg did not yield a working result. On the bench the prescribed setup with the resistors and led will light glow with less than 12 volts. The incandescent bulb glows fine when installed, unplug the incandescent lamp and plug the led/resistors into the circuit and NO light. Please help! Thanks, Tim Jennings How about these pictures? This is the what I installed using (2) 470 ohm 1/2 watt resistors: https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/AF1QipNK32NGafJYbg6dvBvLBopP_KdKv1CLJZ0 5c_A8 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/wMS_B-y6-B0am4bi6bE3O_KqChOxjxmimix14oI6e LUN02qKtgkCL2x3obztPBLACHOM2rbBzGMcnGj6bVwwIWfZKFZF-Ekcgczs8EyeUHhR5lZBk_P5 epwRy7KRbrhrGsf-jfwMdzl0NRXTy-h62Kp7DPu9W1Mn5-TA1uUYpL3x-YmZtbQwG9AXLkLwgeK -pWXea8I_ggU3Hn2x8wmDk6IQR9cIFABHRQpnHk4RtbVAR0BrV98dHgmRvsX7Whbpi0saL0eUCW NMmhZCI3KkMjd65skCd88ro6T9angjb4rj94D3PuRetSJdtBAK7urwvtcsqPxtAeBbgmlouDnMM ZmautUfcVtMKxnW-iwLxraXG9ybDb9LzUtcKYf_IybpBdFBmXuR9OLyk-gr6F0ARe1RgUjWGi21 e27RCEKK5AgXYyrZjoCDsBz5bBKztCOTwINgvvrVBTG-NgkiQiVawtog_nrwnYPXViFZ9oRCmIK V0YOxf9sSZ46T-sxonZTpgOwqsg3uRUoU38xuuM6pPk_4FlK-MxMqqfVmgLg3bhW0RpA80R-JKX msHeZK14gpFVkzUG1hCHHXg060_odm85l7ygIXnzzmKvhojYeA7UFEKw-rBusHqBduE_qTC14mz XdzzLK29fR2Y_SJmblPioBCGmtS13yKYk0esRzrfYO675Ov6RL6iVsdHpkHZQ=w710-h200-n o Meter across the leads south of resistors: https://photos.google.com/u/1/album/AF1QipO48K-4aac4ebIgVK0cW2M1K4pc6PHraYV AbI1-/photo/AF1QipNqgRle3wwH-JKK5UUHj96cDbfPjq7Atb2JyfnZ https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9tbMw3NPq8IsfZ9hjM0Iu1xIoyRJ7aecZFLFw-0Rc 27QR32ikB4a4L5uqRHekoHwTVgbfRPnUarqibjen5SHt7DU-VxpKNx8CNZquN2j_fARKqozu2fX oLNAGBctBUXR5nFroGtUf-3yzL_JqLCaaR5EE2iXKR-9F0JiP6_e80TzCT0NxD7u9DZhWl2WwVF aNBmZFmZwo8jibKpBmnYOy5SE587u-7tRs7191KQ1UERM8W5UqSMQJpABV4NlG-bTcry3GVzDvt ALj2V7UjwRswhODla89rqjoM4tkTCIV-9mJsMm8KwxOCOUqD2hH9nTMAHjhGirEgzGp-3OpRCgX vkzQBusode5Z6dQYHFwke3Mm-cawo5NJ2rJ12T0Ao3Z7mJxKXi8Jz9jIF2Xe3H5qN4ldc37x2IK KwzKX7AMSfdGppkVbimzEU1-E_Q9WhCAcEbkn_tdfm4d1Bdga-T4mp_NAGEmcStBAvoCkEcaVIq btTvaRe2p8MTcKDeYvNh2a12-NVJ3ZfLegnCOPBedJwT5ImpfAvp9POv3IU8dQ8Irf_8Y5O5Tey Z3EajGLUja_igqBNkIxEAVRtYWVSe_vPHHilXLdNBnsf0rmnCK8mDTu5b2TLNvE3_UqCP0EotZS gmRurSSaoG6EIEKtpt1EJHpeawDpEFx3tiJgn6B10MopcKSrgRGTsCIZgFLtw=w453-h930-n o > > > Time: 09:33:27 PM PST US > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Incandescent to led conversion for B&C > alternator > controller > From: "johnbright" > > > photos don't work > > -------- > John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360 > Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F. > john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495716#495716 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- *- Tim Jennings* ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:38:35 AM PST US From: Tim Jennings Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Incandescent to led conversion for B&C alternator controller I appreciate everyone's help weighing in on my led conversion but unfortunately the solution http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LR3_LV_Led_1.jpg did not yield a working result. On the bench the prescribed setup with the resistors and led will light glow with less than 12 volts. The incandescent bulb glows fine when installed, unplug the incandescent lamp and plug the led/resistors into the circuit and NO light. Please help! Thanks, Tim Jennings How about these pictures? This is the what I installed using (2) 470 ohm 1/2 watt resistors: https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/AF1QipNK32NGafJYbg6dvBvLBopP_KdKv1CLJZ0 5c_A8 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/wMS_B-y6-B0am4bi6bE3O_KqChOxjxmimix14oI6e LUN02qKtgkCL2x3obztPBLACHOM2rbBzGMcnGj6bVwwIWfZKFZF-Ekcgczs8EyeUHhR5lZBk_P5 epwRy7KRbrhrGsf-jfwMdzl0NRXTy-h62Kp7DPu9W1Mn5-TA1uUYpL3x-YmZtbQwG9AXLkLwgeK -pWXea8I_ggU3Hn2x8wmDk6IQR9cIFABHRQpnHk4RtbVAR0BrV98dHgmRvsX7Whbpi0saL0eUCW NMmhZCI3KkMjd65skCd88ro6T9angjb4rj94D3PuRetSJdtBAK7urwvtcsqPxtAeBbgmlouDnMM ZmautUfcVtMKxnW-iwLxraXG9ybDb9LzUtcKYf_IybpBdFBmXuR9OLyk-gr6F0ARe1RgUjWGi21 e27RCEKK5AgXYyrZjoCDsBz5bBKztCOTwINgvvrVBTG-NgkiQiVawtog_nrwnYPXViFZ9oRCmIK V0YOxf9sSZ46T-sxonZTpgOwqsg3uRUoU38xuuM6pPk_4FlK-MxMqqfVmgLg3bhW0RpA80R-JKX msHeZK14gpFVkzUG1hCHHXg060_odm85l7ygIXnzzmKvhojYeA7UFEKw-rBusHqBduE_qTC14mz XdzzLK29fR2Y_SJmblPioBCGmtS13yKYk0esRzrfYO675Ov6RL6iVsdHpkHZQ=w710-h200-n o Meter across the leads south of resistors: https://photos.google.com/u/1/album/AF1QipO48K-4aac4ebIgVK0cW2M1K4pc6PHraYV AbI1-/photo/AF1QipNqgRle3wwH-JKK5UUHj96cDbfPjq7Atb2JyfnZ https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9tbMw3NPq8IsfZ9hjM0Iu1xIoyRJ7aecZFLFw-0Rc 27QR32ikB4a4L5uqRHekoHwTVgbfRPnUarqibjen5SHt7DU-VxpKNx8CNZquN2j_fARKqozu2fX oLNAGBctBUXR5nFroGtUf-3yzL_JqLCaaR5EE2iXKR-9F0JiP6_e80TzCT0NxD7u9DZhWl2WwVF aNBmZFmZwo8jibKpBmnYOy5SE587u-7tRs7191KQ1UERM8W5UqSMQJpABV4NlG-bTcry3GVzDvt ALj2V7UjwRswhODla89rqjoM4tkTCIV-9mJsMm8KwxOCOUqD2hH9nTMAHjhGirEgzGp-3OpRCgX vkzQBusode5Z6dQYHFwke3Mm-cawo5NJ2rJ12T0Ao3Z7mJxKXi8Jz9jIF2Xe3H5qN4ldc37x2IK KwzKX7AMSfdGppkVbimzEU1-E_Q9WhCAcEbkn_tdfm4d1Bdga-T4mp_NAGEmcStBAvoCkEcaVIq btTvaRe2p8MTcKDeYvNh2a12-NVJ3ZfLegnCOPBedJwT5ImpfAvp9POv3IU8dQ8Irf_8Y5O5Tey Z3EajGLUja_igqBNkIxEAVRtYWVSe_vPHHilXLdNBnsf0rmnCK8mDTu5b2TLNvE3_UqCP0EotZS gmRurSSaoG6EIEKtpt1EJHpeawDpEFx3tiJgn6B10MopcKSrgRGTsCIZgFLtw=w453-h930-n o > > > Time: 09:33:27 PM PST US > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Incandescent to led conversion for B&C > alternator > controller > From: "johnbright" > > > photos don't work > > -------- > John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360 > Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F. > john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495716#495716 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- *- Tim Jennings* ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:03 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Incandescent to led conversion for B&C alternator controller From: "johnbright" Hi Tim, Sorry to say the photo links still do not work, at least for me. You could attach them to a posting on Aeroelectric List or this instruction might help... scroll to "create a shared album" and "send a link to share". https://support.google.com/photos/answer/6131416?co=GENIE.Platform%3DDesktop&hl=en -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360 Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F. john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495721#495721 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:58 AM PST US From: Tim Jennings Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 04/08/20 Thanks John. How about now. I feel like the Verizon commercial. Haha https://photos.app.goo.gl/dHpuxEwpKpTNisEaA https://photos.app.goo.gl/N1kTbHUFfKQAqgFf7 > > > Time: 09:33:27 PM PST US > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Incandescent to led conversion for B&C > alternator > controller > From: "johnbright" > > > photos don't work > > -------- > John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360 > Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F. > john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495716#495716 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:59 AM PST US From: Tim Jennings Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 04/08/20 Thanks John. How about now. I feel like the Verizon commercial. Haha https://photos.app.goo.gl/dHpuxEwpKpTNisEaA https://photos.app.goo.gl/N1kTbHUFfKQAqgFf7 > > > Time: 09:33:27 PM PST US > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Incandescent to led conversion for B&C > alternator > controller > From: "johnbright" > > > photos don't work > > -------- > John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360 > Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F. > john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495716#495716 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:15 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Incandescent to led conversion for B&C alternator controller At 06:36 AM 4/9/2020, you wrote: >I appreciate everyone's help weighing in on my led conversion but >unfortunately the solution >http://aeroel ectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LR3_LV_Led_1.jpg=C2 >did not yield >a working result.=C2 On the bench the prescribed setup with the resistors and >led will light glow with less than 12 volts.=C2 =C2 > >The incandescent bulb glows fine when installed, unplug the incandescent >lamp and plug the led/resistors into the circuit and NO light. Is your lamp wired correctly? An LED is polarity sensitive. Try swapping your lamp/resistor array wires . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:01 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: New Design Schemes and Brownout Operation From: "wsimpso1" I am a pretty good mechanical engineer, but electrics, well, please bear with me as I learn. Designing up my IFR electrics system, 2 Dynon displays and associated bits, Avidyne, LED lighting, I was all set to go Z-14. Now Bob is talking new scheme to be lighter, easier to build, maintain, and fly. I do not feel like I can really judge what is needed and not, how to pick, etc. Done the reading, just not experienced... In the process, I have figured out that I need 30 amps continuous to turn on everything and a few more amps to transmit. Hey, there are alternators at B&C that can make Plan B just turn on the standby alternator and motor on. Cool! Now to getting it cranked up without rebooting the electro-whizzies. Dynon makes backup batteries. Avidyne has yet to answer on how they prefer to avoid brownout reboots. Then we have brownout bus designs with relays and even have advice to use DC-DC converters to keep 12VDC at the boxes. Remember, I am an ME, my electric savvy is puny. Given the current state of knowledge, are we better off with a 7-10 AH battery and the brownout bus or with the boosters, or even both? Anybody have some brands and model numbers that are known to be pretty reliable for these DC-DC gadgets? With the stated 10,000 hour life of these alternators, maybe I should say two on them plus the battery is enough and stop there. But let's say both are dead, and I need an hour to get to a suitable approach. I can cut off the outside lights and pitot heat, but the I gotta drive one Dynon, the Avidyne and the transponder someway. Sounds like a good argument for a brownout battery that is an infrastructure item rather than having backup batteries for each of several boxes. Or does the FMEA score better with several independant backup batteries? Seems better to have one COTS battery, relay, and switch than a bunch of propitiatory batteries... Billski Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495724#495724 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:02:40 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Curiosity Re: Master Switch From: "bcone1381" In the Aeroelectric Connection Book has notes on Master Switches. (age Z11, Note 22) I'm curious, if an engine of not running, and the field switch to the alternator is on, how much draw is there? It seems to me like the bus is at 12V, and the Regulator sees 12V and wont be satisfied until the bus is at 14V, but the regulator does not see that the engine is not running and the alternator is not turning so I would think it want to open up its throttle to wide open to try to get 14 V. And so it seems to me like there would be a rather large draw. I don't think me logic is right. School me. -------- Brooks Cone Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495725#495725 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:11:24 AM PST US From: Foghorn Inc Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Design Schemes and Brownout Operation Bill, Here is my electrical plan. I have SDS EFI, GRT Sport EX x 2, GPS175, EIS and GTR-200 x 2. The SDS EFI runs from the ENG BUS. The GRTs get primary power from the VP-X and secondary power from the E-BUS. The #2 GTR-200, GPS175, EIS, Stratus, GMA240, encoder and ARINC get power from the E-BUS. The number one priority is to keep the ENG BUS and E-BUS alive for continued emergency flight IFR. Jeff Parker > On 9Apr, 2020, at 09:39, wsimpso1 wrote: > > > I am a pretty good mechanical engineer, but electrics, well, please bear with me as I learn. > > Designing up my IFR electrics system, 2 Dynon displays and associated bits, Avidyne, LED lighting, I was all set to go Z-14. Now Bob is talking new scheme to be lighter, easier to build, maintain, and fly. I do not feel like I can really judge what is needed and not, how to pick, etc. Done the reading, just not experienced... > > In the process, I have figured out that I need 30 amps continuous to turn on everything and a few more amps to transmit. Hey, there are alternators at B&C that can make Plan B just turn on the standby alternator and motor on. Cool! > > Now to getting it cranked up without rebooting the electro-whizzies. Dynon makes backup batteries. Avidyne has yet to answer on how they prefer to avoid brownout reboots. Then we have brownout bus designs with relays and even have advice to use DC-DC converters to keep 12VDC at the boxes. Remember, I am an ME, my electric savvy is puny. Given the current state of knowledge, are we better off with a 7-10 AH battery and the brownout bus or with the boosters, or even both? Anybody have some brands and model numbers that are known to be pretty reliable for these DC-DC gadgets? > > With the stated 10,000 hour life of these alternators, maybe I should say two on them plus the battery is enough and stop there. But let's say both are dead, and I need an hour to get to a suitable approach. I can cut off the outside lights and pitot heat, but the I gotta drive one Dynon, the Avidyne and the transponder someway. Sounds like a good argument for a brownout battery that is an infrastructure item rather than having backup batteries for each of several boxes. Or does the FMEA score better with several independant backup batteries? Seems better to have one COTS battery, relay, and switch than a bunch of propitiatory batteries... > > Billski > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495724#495724 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:10 AM PST US From: David Saylor Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Curiosity Re: Master Switch My PlanePower alternator tries its best to make voltage with the engine stopped. It pumps enough current through the field to make the alternator case hot enough to blister my fingers. Literally. But without any mechanical input, of course the output just stays at battery voltage. The draw isn't enough to pop the 5A field circuit breaker. But the case does get pretty hot. I'm sure the lack of cooling air is a factor as well. --Dave On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 9:09 AM bcone1381 wrote: > > In the Aeroelectric Connection Book has notes on Master Switches. (age > Z11, Note 22) I'm curious, if an engine of not running, and the field > switch to the alternator is on, how much draw is there? > > It seems to me like the bus is at 12V, and the Regulator sees 12V and wont > be satisfied until the bus is at 14V, but the regulator does not see that > the engine is not running and the alternator is not turning so I would > think it want to open up its throttle to wide open to try to get 14 V. And > so it seems to me like there would be a rather large draw. > > I don't think me logic is right. School me. > > -------- > Brooks Cone > Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495725#495725 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:31 AM PST US From: Sebastien Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Curiosity Re: Master Switch Here is a graph of a typical shutdown. You can see the draw from the battery go from about 10.5 to 9 when the alternator switch is selected off after shutdown. We have seen the alternator field draw as much as 3A and the builder noted that the alternator itself gets very hot if left on for a while with the engine not running. For this reason we don't turn the alternator on until after engine start and turn it off right after shutdown. On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 9:09 AM bcone1381 wrote: > > In the Aeroelectric Connection Book has notes on Master Switches. (age > Z11, Note 22) I'm curious, if an engine of not running, and the field > switch to the alternator is on, how much draw is there? > > It seems to me like the bus is at 12V, and the Regulator sees 12V and wont > be satisfied until the bus is at 14V, but the regulator does not see that > the engine is not running and the alternator is not turning so I would > think it want to open up its throttle to wide open to try to get 14 V. And > so it seems to me like there would be a rather large draw. > > I don't think me logic is right. School me. > > -------- > Brooks Cone > Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495725#495725 > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:58 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: New Design Schemes and Brownout Operation From: "user9253" The simpler the electrical system is, the better. It will easier to understand and build. It will cost less and weigh less. And there will be less chance of failure or pilot error. So add features that you need, but not those that you might need. However, there should be a plan B for any failure. A DC-DC converter used for brownout protection seems like a good idea. I do not know if anyone has actually installed one yet. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495730#495730 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:58 AM PST US From: John Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Incandescent to led conversion for B&C alternator controller =EF=BB =EF=BB This is the sketch I received from B&C this winter when I asked about doing t he same. Not sure if there is any difference from what is shown in your link below. Regards, John >> On Apr 9, 2020, at 1:05 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > =EF=BB At 06:36 AM 4/9/2020, you wrote: >> I appreciate everyone's help weighing in on my led conversion but >> unfortunately the solution >> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LR3_LV_Led_1.jpg=C3=82 did no t yield >> a working result.=C3=82 On the bench the prescribed setup with the resis tors and >> led will light glow with less than 12 volts.=C3=82 =C3=82 >> >> The incandescent bulb glows fine when installed, unplug the incandescent >> lamp and plug the led/resistors into the circuit and NO light. > > Is your lamp wired correctly? An LED is > polarity sensitive. Try swapping your > lamp/resistor array wires . . . > > ========================== ========================== ========================== ========================== ========================== ========================== ====================== ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:00 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Curiosity Re: Master Switch At 11:00 AM 4/9/2020, you wrote: > >In the Aeroelectric Connection Book has notes on Master Switches. >(age Z11, Note 22) >I'm curious, if an engine of not running, and the field switch to >the alternator >is on, how much draw is there? 2-3 amps >It seems to me like the bus is at 12V, and the Regulator sees 12V and wont be >satisfied until the bus is at 14V, but the regulator does not see that >the engine is not running and the alternator is not turning so I would >think it want to open up its throttle to wide open to try to get 14 V. >And so it seems to me like there would be a rather large draw. > >I don't think me logic is right. School me. your analysis is correct. The regulator will go to full-bore which connects the field (~4 ohms) to the battery. This is the reason for a progressive transfer DC master switch . . . it lets you power up battery-only while leaving the alternator off. This reduces battery loads for ground ops. It also reduces potential for damage to field windings being fully excited without benefit of cooling air. In operation, field current will be on the order of 1 amp. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:45 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Curiosity Re: Master Switch > >The draw isn't enough to pop the 5A field circuit breaker. >But the case does get pretty hot. I'm sure the lack of cooling >air is a factor as well. Correct. If you don't have a split rocker or progressive transfer toggle switch for the master, then it's advisable to pull the field breaker for ground ops. Some of the z-figures used to suggest a simpler, easier to acquire, DPST master switch COMBINED with a pullable field breaker. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:14 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Incandescent to led conversion for B&C alternator controller At 12:31 PM 4/9/2020, you wrote: >This is the sketch I received from B&C this winter when I asked about >doing the same. Not sure if there is any difference from what is >shown in your link below. That's an earlier incarnation of the same configuration first published about 20 years ago . . . I updated the drawing to include both BARE BULB LED and 12V ANNUNCIATOR assemblies already fitted with a series resistor for 12v operation. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:00 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Design Schemes and Brownout Operation At 11:06 AM 4/9/2020, you wrote: >Bill, > >Here is my electrical plan. I have SDS EFI, GRT Sport EX x 2, >GPS175, EIS and GTR-200 x 2. The SDS EFI runs from the ENG BUS. The >GRTs get primary power from the VP-X and secondary power from the >E-BUS. The #2 GTR-200, GPS175, EIS, Stratus, GMA240, encoder and >ARINC get power from the E-BUS. The number one priority is to keep >the ENG BUS and E-BUS alive for continued emergency flight IFR. > Looks pretty much like Z01 . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:17:04 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: New role for the E-Bus? At 10:19 PM 4/8/2020, you wrote: >Bob, I'm surprised by your suggestion to "=C2 buy from folks like >the AeroElectic Connection" - I have been reading in "the book" >and many of your web articles about products the Aeroelectric >Connection sold - but it all seemed to be in the past. I say that >because I haven't been able to find any of these products on >your website. But now you said it in a recent email so it must >be true - how do I order form you? Sorry 'bout that . . . I didn't mean to infer that we were still in the parts business. Sold that part of our operations when Dr. Dee started graduate school! The thrust of the post was to look suppliers of both HARDWARE and INFORMATION who have proven track records. There are hundreds of manufacturers for 'starter contactors' the majority of which are probably fine for our purposes . . . failure of a starter contactor is a low-risk inconvenience. But if you're disposed to worry about it then going to proven sources for your part selection should help . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:11:27 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: New Design Schemes and Brownout Operation From: "wsimpso1" I shall repeat my questions without the distracting associated information: Given the current state of knowledge, do we appear to be better off with a 7-10 AH battery on a brownout bus or with the boosters, or even both? Anybody have some brands and model numbers that are known to be reliable for these DC-DC gadgets that could be used as brownout boosters? Which gives better reliability (scores better on FMEA) for backup power - backup batteries on the individual boxes or a single battery, switch, and relay? Billski Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495738#495738 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:32 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: New Design Schemes and Brownout Operation At 07:08 PM 4/9/2020, you wrote: > >Given the current state of knowledge, do we appear to be better >off with a 7-10 AH battery on a brownout bus or with the boosters, >or even both? a battery supported brown-out bus is not terribly elegant. The energy needed to support the 'victim' electro-whizzies is minuscule . . . 15V output at say 6A for (heaven forbid!) 10 Seconds is a total of 900 Watt-Seconds. An 8 a.h. bat discharged at the same rate is good for about an HOUR for about 300,000 Watt-Seconds. Further, it weighs about 8 pounds and has a short service life. A booster will happily deliver to the necessary load with a weight penalty of less than 1 pound and a service life that probably exceeds the life of the airplane. >Anybody have some brands and model numbers that >are known to be reliable for these DC-DC gadgets >that could be used as brownout boosters? These are not safety of flight items. They are used for mere seconds at the beginning of each flight . . . failure to perform only means that potential brown-out victims will reset after engine start and continue to work normally. Ergo, failure of the device is at worst an inconvenience requiring some attention when you get back to your home field. >Which gives better reliability (scores better on FMEA) >for backup power - backup batteries on the individual >boxes or a single battery, switch, and relay? These are not BACKUP POWER . . . they are a band-aid sadly needed because some popular electro-whizzies did didn't take DO160 qualification testing to heart and make their product brown-out resistant -OR- capable of fast reboot . . . like 1-2 seconds. Internal or external BACKUP batteries called out by suppliers are yet another band-aid. The supplier of every really cool gizmo wants to believe that it's always going to be there for you. They correctly observe that they have no control over YOUR choices for architecture. So, the safe thing to do from a marketing perspective is to include internal backup battery or call for an external backup battery in their installation recommendations. The downside is the same as cited above for brown-out bus support. They're a limited life product that demands preventative maintenance for continue airworthiness . . . The discussions going to refinement of Z01 strive to achieve bullet-proof power sources not only for the really slick electro-whizzies . . . but ALL accessories needed for comfortable termination of flight. I suggest that goal can be achieved with ONE . . . count 'em . . . ONE well cared for battery and up to two modern offerings for engine driven power sources. Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.