Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:45 AM - Re: Minimum ANL size of 35A vs. power feed AWG (Colyn Case)
2. 09:48 AM - Re: New Design Schemes and Brownout Operation (wsimpso1)
3. 10:22 AM - Re: Re: Minimum ANL size of 35A vs. power feed AWG (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 11:07 AM - An interesting bit of aviation history (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 11:35 AM - Re: Re: Minimum ANL size of 35A vs. power feed AWG (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 12:37 PM - Aircraft Tug ()
7. 01:22 PM - Re: Aircraft Tug (Joe Motis)
8. 03:53 PM - Re: Aircraft Tug (skywagon185guy .)
9. 04:38 PM - Re[2]: Aircraft Tug (Gerry van Dyk)
10. 05:21 PM - Re: Aircraft Tug (Charlie England)
11. 07:21 PM - Re: Bose Headset Plug Replacement (Allan Chong)
12. 07:50 PM - Re: Aircraft Tug (Tim Olson)
13. 08:50 PM - Re: Aircraft Tug (DeWitt Whittington)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Minimum ANL size of 35A vs. power feed AWG |
Thinking about this a little differently: When the wires are sized, they are
sized for voltage drop vs. current and distance. Tables for calculating that
are widely available. Typically we apply a fuse or breaker to allow the current
used in that calculation.
That breaker size is way way lower than the current required to compromise the
insulating properties of the insulation. What I would like to know, is if I
have a #10 wire, at what current is the temp rise high enough to start compromising
the insulation? e.g. ETFE melts at 255 degrees centigrade which in my
application would be about a 200 degree C temp rise.
So I might set the anl interrupt current to allow a 100 degree temp rise for that
gauge wire. ....looking for the table that shows what that current is.
--------
Colyn Case
colyncase@earthlink.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495763#495763
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: New Design Schemes and Brownout Operation |
First, thanks for the response, I appreciate the thoughtful response.
To specifics:
I do believe that a DC-DC booster makes sense for prevention of brownout reboots
over adding a battery. I was hoping that we could narrow the field some. Going
on a search/shop/install/repeat cycle is something I would like to avoid. Any
brands that are obviously bad news or look like they should be OK is a big
help.
The AeroElectric Connection has talked FMEA and MTBF. I was trained on FMEA in
1980 and have done a lot of work with them over a successful engineering career,
and believe in their value. I was hoping that we could talk relative scores
of the various systems when performed by someone who has more than the guesses
I would have to apply to the process. Frankly, if I can add a couple switches
and contactors plus another battery to reduce the likelihood of dead stick and
dark panel by an order of magnitude, I am likely to do it. On the other hand,
if Z-14 and the newly developing scheme are on par with each other, I will
go for simpler and lighter every time...
That said, I did a quick FMEA using pessimistic values for MTBF of alternators,
regulators, drive mechanisms, switches, contactors, and wiring, and even then,
two alternators and reasonably fresh battery gets reliability beyond 99.9% for
a thousand hours of operation. The value of redundancy is pretty high.
I am beginning to see the value in the advice I have received... Thanks Bob!
Billski
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495765#495765
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| Subject: | Re: Minimum ANL size of 35A vs. power feed AWG |
At 06:30 PM 4/10/2020, you wrote:
><colyncase@earthlink.net>
>
>I can see the logic of that. However, if you abide that logic you
>probably wouldn't put any current limiters in your airplane at all, right?
It's the same logic that specified sizes
and materials of bolts that hold the wings
on, optimizes engine oil for best service
life and strives for failure tolerant
electrical system architecture.
>I think the guys that made my Nissan Stanza thought something
>like that. One day for no reason that I could find, the
>electrical system fried itself, burned through a fender and
>destroyed the entire wiring harness in the car.
The arcing burned through sheet steel
while partitioning off enough energy
to burn every wired in the car?
>Fortunately, shortly into the episode,
'Shortly'? The events described above
take quite a bit of time . . . how
long was 'shortly'?
>someone had the presence of mind to grab one of
>the cables connected to the battery and simply pull it off.
Loose enough to be disconnected with
bare hands? I'm having difficulty
wrapping my gray matter around the
physics of this event.
>Not something I would enjoy doing at 20,000'
Building a pressurized airplane . . . or
are you planning an oxygen system? What
kind of cabin heat do you anticipate?
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | An interesting bit of aviation history |
https://tinyurl.com/tjyse9q
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: Minimum ANL size of 35A vs. power feed AWG |
At 07:45 AM 4/11/2020, you wrote:
><colyncase@earthlink.net>
>
>Thinking about this a little differently: When the wires are
>sized, they are sized for voltage drop vs. current and
>distance. Tables for calculating that are widely
>available. Typically we apply a fuse or breaker to allow the
>current used in that calculation.
>
>That breaker size is way way lower than the current required to
>compromise the insulating properties of the insulation.
Circuit protection will operate wwwayyyyy before the insulation
is at-risk. A 22AWG wire will carry 20 amps in room air and
still be far short of damaging insulation . . . 5A circuit
protection makes risk-to-insulation still more remote.
The vast majority of bad days in the cockpit
are the result of poor piloting. Only a
few are the result of mechanical failure
and fewer still involve electrical failure.
Of ALL electrical failures, death by 'unprotected'
wires are a vanishingly small proportion.
SwissAir 111 comes to mind . . . that WAS
a compounded series of catastrophic design snafus.
But for your personal airborne recreational vehicle,
I suggest you're over thinking the problem.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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Hello all
I'm looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on
just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs.
I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v
motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what
specs I'm looking at.
One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for
continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and
I'm not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has also suggested
converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has
scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that
will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas
Thanks
Mike
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Tug |
Hi Mike, I built a tug out of one of the mobility scooters I found on CL
for $100.00 bucks. Everything is already their just needs some creativity
to make it work on your aircraft. Will look for pics but do not know if I
have any. Joe Motis
On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 12:42 PM <mike@vision499.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hello all
>
>
> I=99m looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not
a ride
> on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs.
>
>
> I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few
> 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure o
f
> what specs I=99m looking at.
>
>
> One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for
> continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and
> I=99m not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has als
o
> suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that
> entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems idea
l
> but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right
> down.
>
>
> I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm
_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Tug |
Mike,
...one tip is: you have to gear way down the motor which will increase its
final driving torque greatly. So, don't be afraid of smaller size motors.
For heavens sake, don't use an auto starter type motor; way too powerful.
First engagement would rip your whole tug apart.
On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 12:32 PM <mike@vision499.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hello all
>
>
> I=99m looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not
a ride
> on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs.
>
>
> I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few
> 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure o
f
> what specs I=99m looking at.
>
>
> One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for
> continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and
> I=99m not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has als
o
> suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that
> entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems idea
l
> but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right
> down.
>
>
> I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm
_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
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_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
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Message 9
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If I may suggest, have a look at Minimax Aircraft Tugs for ideas.
https://www.minimaxtugs.com/ They've got a range of light tugs built
around cordless drills.
For the bottom end a commercial worm drive gear box would probably be a
good bet. Try searching Ebay for 133ULR20A Browning Raider Worm Gear
Reducer. I'd post a link but it's about 7 miles long. That unit is
seriously overkill for the purpose, but perhaps there's lighter weight
similar units.
this might be another option, but you'd need a separate battery and
electrical system.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC12V-12rpm-Speed-Reduction-Worm-Gear-Motor-with-C
able-70kg-cm-High-Torque/163673951726?hash=item261bba4dee:g:QhkAAOSwOFFeA
x2z
Just food for thought
Gerry
------ Original Message ------
From: "skywagon185guy ." <skywagon185@gmail.com>
Sent: 2020-04-11 4:49:35 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug
>Mike,
>...one tip is: you have to gear way down the motor which will increase
>its final driving torque greatly. So, don't be afraid of smaller size
>motors. For heavens sake, don't use an auto starter type motor; way too
>powerful. First engagement would rip your whole tug apart.
>
>On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 12:32 PM <mike@vision499.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Hello all
>>
>>
>>
>>I=99m looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not
a
>>ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800
>>lbs.
>>
>>
>>
>>I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a
>>few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not
>>sure of what specs I=99m looking at.
>>
>>
>>
>>One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for
>>continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds
>>and I=99m not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has
also
>>suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that
>>entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems
>>ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be
>>geared right down.
>>
>>
>>
>>I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas
>>
>>
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>><https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm
_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>>Virus-free. www.avast.com
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_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>><#m_-4086849547896881672_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Tug |
Actually, a starter motor can work if properly geared down; I've got one
in my hangar that a friend used to use to drag his C-170 around. It had
a full size wet cell car battery for power (weight probably helped with
traction) and a chain reduction to the wheels. Sprocket diameters were
probably ~1.5" & ~6", but it's been a while since I really looked at it.
IIRC, it had a simple forward/reverse switch & a pushbutton to activate
it. A 100 yd continuous operation might be a bit much for a starter
motor, but it might not be working as hard pulling the a/c on level
ground as it is when starting the engine.
There's a recently created thread on VAF detailing a shop-built tug
using a pair of scooter motors & wheels (purchased as a set on ebay).
Uses an off the shelf SLA battery.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=180676&highlight=tug
FWIW,
Charlie
On 4/11/2020 5:49 PM, skywagon185guy . wrote:
> Mike,
> ...one tip is: you have to gear way down the motor which will increase
> its final driving torque greatly. So, don't be afraid of smaller size
> motors. For heavens sake, don't use an auto starter type motor; way
> too powerful. First engagement would rip your whole tug apart.
>
> On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 12:32 PM <mike@vision499.com
> <mailto:mike@vision499.com>> wrote:
>
> Hello all
>
> Im looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not
> a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about
> 1800 lbs.
>
> I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are
> a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so
> am not sure of what specs Im looking at.
>
> One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated
> for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is
> 100 yds and Im not sure if it will cope with that distance. A
> friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor,
> not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed
> controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful
> enough but it will be geared right down.
>
> I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas
>
> Thanks
>
> Mike
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
> Virus-free. www.avast.com
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Bose Headset Plug Replacement |
Send it off to Bose. over 10 years ago, they
replaced electronics in their 1st gen headset for
almost nothing. I think they also did some extra
things gratis like changing the seals.
Excellent support on older out of warranty product.
Allan
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Tug |
I actually have a MiniMax that I've got for sale right now.
It's set up for an RV-10/RV-14 but I'm guessing it could
be customized for others.
Tim
On 4/11/20 6:34 PM, Gerry van Dyk wrote:
> If I may suggest, have a look at Minimax Aircraft Tugs for ideas.
> https://www.minimaxtugs.com/ They've got a range of light tugs built
> around cordless drills.
>
> For the bottom end a commercial worm drive gear box would probably be a
> good bet. Try searching Ebay for 133ULR20A Browning Raider Worm Gear
> Reducer. I'd post a link but it's about 7 miles long. That unit is
> seriously overkill for the purpose, but perhaps there's lighter weight
> similar units.
>
> this might be another option, but you'd need a separate battery and
> electrical system.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC12V-12rpm-Speed-Reduction-Worm-Gear-Motor-with-Cable-70kg-cm-High-Torque/163673951726?hash=item261bba4dee:g:QhkAAOSwOFFeAx2z
>
> Just food for thought
> Gerry
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "skywagon185guy ." <skywagon185@gmail.com
> <mailto:skywagon185@gmail.com>>
> To: "aeroelectric list" <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> <mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>>
> Sent: 2020-04-11 4:49:35 PM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug
>
>> Mike,
>> ...one tip is: you have to gear way down the motor which will increase
>> its final driving torque greatly. So, don't be afraid of smaller size
>> motors. For heavens sake, don't use an auto starter type motor; way
>> too powerful. First engagement would rip your whole tug apart.
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 12:32 PM <mike@vision499.com
>> <mailto:mike@vision499.com>> wrote:
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Hello all____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Im looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not
>> a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about
>> 1800 lbs.____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are
>> a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so
>> am not sure of what specs Im looking at. ____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated
>> for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is
>> 100 yds and Im not sure if it will cope with that distance. A
>> friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor,
>> not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed
>> controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful
>> enough but it will be geared right down.____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Thanks____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Mike____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> __ __
>>
>>
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>>
>>
>> <#m_-4086849547896881672_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Tug |
Tim, what do you want for the MiniMax? And where do you live for shipping cost
calculation to Dinwiddie County Airport (KPTB), Virginia.
Dee Whittington
804-677-4849 iPhone
> On Apr 11, 2020, at 10:44 PM, Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
>
>
> I actually have a MiniMax that I've got for sale right now.
> It's set up for an RV-10/RV-14 but I'm guessing it could
> be customized for others.
> Tim
>
> On 4/11/20 6:34 PM, Gerry van Dyk wrote:
>> If I may suggest, have a look at Minimax Aircraft Tugs for ideas. https://www.minimaxtugs.com/ They've got a range of light tugs built around cordless drills.
>> For the bottom end a commercial worm drive gear box would probably be a good
bet. Try searching Ebay for 133ULR20A Browning Raider Worm Gear Reducer. I'd
post a link but it's about 7 miles long. That unit is seriously overkill for
the purpose, but perhaps there's lighter weight similar units.
>> this might be another option, but you'd need a separate battery and electrical
system.
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC12V-12rpm-Speed-Reduction-Worm-Gear-Motor-with-Cable-70kg-cm-High-Torque/163673951726?hash=item261bba4dee:g:QhkAAOSwOFFeAx2z
>> Just food for thought
>> Gerry
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> From: "skywagon185guy ." <skywagon185@gmail.com <mailto:skywagon185@gmail.com>>
>> To: "aeroelectric list" <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com <mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>>
>> Sent: 2020-04-11 4:49:35 PM
>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug
>>> Mike,
>>> ...one tip is: you have to gear way down the motor which will increase its
final driving torque greatly. So, don't be afraid of smaller size motors. For
heavens sake, don't use an auto starter type motor; way too powerful. First engagement
would rip your whole tug apart.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 12:32 PM <mike@vision499.com <mailto:mike@vision499.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> __ __
>>>
>>> Hello all____
>>>
>>> __ __
>>>
>>> Im looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not
>>> a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about
>>> 1800 lbs.____
>>>
>>> __ __
>>>
>>> I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are
>>> a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so
>>> am not sure of what specs Im looking at. ____
>>>
>>> __ __
>>>
>>> One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated
>>> for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is
>>> 100 yds and Im not sure if it will cope with that distance. A
>>> friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor,
>>> not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed
>>> controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful
>>> enough but it will be geared right down.____
>>>
>>> __ __
>>>
>>> I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas____
>>>
>>> __ __
>>>
>>> Thanks____
>>>
>>> __ __
>>>
>>> Mike____
>>>
>>> __ __
>>>
>>> __ __
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
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