---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 04/11/20: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:45 AM - Re: Minimum ANL size of 35A vs. power feed AWG (Colyn Case) 2. 09:48 AM - Re: New Design Schemes and Brownout Operation (wsimpso1) 3. 10:22 AM - Re: Re: Minimum ANL size of 35A vs. power feed AWG (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 11:07 AM - An interesting bit of aviation history (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 11:35 AM - Re: Re: Minimum ANL size of 35A vs. power feed AWG (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 12:37 PM - Aircraft Tug () 7. 01:22 PM - Re: Aircraft Tug (Joe Motis) 8. 03:53 PM - Re: Aircraft Tug (skywagon185guy .) 9. 04:38 PM - Re[2]: Aircraft Tug (Gerry van Dyk) 10. 05:21 PM - Re: Aircraft Tug (Charlie England) 11. 07:21 PM - Re: Bose Headset Plug Replacement (Allan Chong) 12. 07:50 PM - Re: Aircraft Tug (Tim Olson) 13. 08:50 PM - Re: Aircraft Tug (DeWitt Whittington) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:59 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Minimum ANL size of 35A vs. power feed AWG From: "Colyn Case" Thinking about this a little differently: When the wires are sized, they are sized for voltage drop vs. current and distance. Tables for calculating that are widely available. Typically we apply a fuse or breaker to allow the current used in that calculation. That breaker size is way way lower than the current required to compromise the insulating properties of the insulation. What I would like to know, is if I have a #10 wire, at what current is the temp rise high enough to start compromising the insulation? e.g. ETFE melts at 255 degrees centigrade which in my application would be about a 200 degree C temp rise. So I might set the anl interrupt current to allow a 100 degree temp rise for that gauge wire. ....looking for the table that shows what that current is. -------- Colyn Case colyncase@earthlink.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495763#495763 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:15 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: New Design Schemes and Brownout Operation From: "wsimpso1" First, thanks for the response, I appreciate the thoughtful response. To specifics: I do believe that a DC-DC booster makes sense for prevention of brownout reboots over adding a battery. I was hoping that we could narrow the field some. Going on a search/shop/install/repeat cycle is something I would like to avoid. Any brands that are obviously bad news or look like they should be OK is a big help. The AeroElectric Connection has talked FMEA and MTBF. I was trained on FMEA in 1980 and have done a lot of work with them over a successful engineering career, and believe in their value. I was hoping that we could talk relative scores of the various systems when performed by someone who has more than the guesses I would have to apply to the process. Frankly, if I can add a couple switches and contactors plus another battery to reduce the likelihood of dead stick and dark panel by an order of magnitude, I am likely to do it. On the other hand, if Z-14 and the newly developing scheme are on par with each other, I will go for simpler and lighter every time... That said, I did a quick FMEA using pessimistic values for MTBF of alternators, regulators, drive mechanisms, switches, contactors, and wiring, and even then, two alternators and reasonably fresh battery gets reliability beyond 99.9% for a thousand hours of operation. The value of redundancy is pretty high. I am beginning to see the value in the advice I have received... Thanks Bob! Billski Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495765#495765 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:22:27 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Minimum ANL size of 35A vs. power feed AWG At 06:30 PM 4/10/2020, you wrote: > > >I can see the logic of that. However, if you abide that logic you >probably wouldn't put any current limiters in your airplane at all, right? It's the same logic that specified sizes and materials of bolts that hold the wings on, optimizes engine oil for best service life and strives for failure tolerant electrical system architecture. >I think the guys that made my Nissan Stanza thought something >like that. One day for no reason that I could find, the >electrical system fried itself, burned through a fender and >destroyed the entire wiring harness in the car. The arcing burned through sheet steel while partitioning off enough energy to burn every wired in the car? >Fortunately, shortly into the episode, 'Shortly'? The events described above take quite a bit of time . . . how long was 'shortly'? >someone had the presence of mind to grab one of >the cables connected to the battery and simply pull it off. Loose enough to be disconnected with bare hands? I'm having difficulty wrapping my gray matter around the physics of this event. >Not something I would enjoy doing at 20,000' Building a pressurized airplane . . . or are you planning an oxygen system? What kind of cabin heat do you anticipate? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:07:48 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: An interesting bit of aviation history https://tinyurl.com/tjyse9q Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:35:25 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Minimum ANL size of 35A vs. power feed AWG At 07:45 AM 4/11/2020, you wrote: > > >Thinking about this a little differently: When the wires are >sized, they are sized for voltage drop vs. current and >distance. Tables for calculating that are widely >available. Typically we apply a fuse or breaker to allow the >current used in that calculation. > >That breaker size is way way lower than the current required to >compromise the insulating properties of the insulation. Circuit protection will operate wwwayyyyy before the insulation is at-risk. A 22AWG wire will carry 20 amps in room air and still be far short of damaging insulation . . . 5A circuit protection makes risk-to-insulation still more remote. The vast majority of bad days in the cockpit are the result of poor piloting. Only a few are the result of mechanical failure and fewer still involve electrical failure. Of ALL electrical failures, death by 'unprotected' wires are a vanishingly small proportion. SwissAir 111 comes to mind . . . that WAS a compounded series of catastrophic design snafus. But for your personal airborne recreational vehicle, I suggest you're over thinking the problem. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:37:00 PM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug Hello all I'm looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what specs I'm looking at. One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and I'm not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas Thanks Mike -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:22:56 PM PST US From: Joe Motis Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug Hi Mike, I built a tug out of one of the mobility scooters I found on CL for $100.00 bucks. Everything is already their just needs some creativity to make it work on your aircraft. Will look for pics but do not know if I have any. Joe Motis On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 12:42 PM wrote: > > > Hello all > > > I=99m looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride > on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. > > > I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few > 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure o f > what specs I=99m looking at. > > > One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for > continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and > I=99m not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has als o > suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that > entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems idea l > but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right > down. > > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas > > > Thanks > > > Mike > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-8539690423255490022_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:53:38 PM PST US From: "skywagon185guy ." Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug Mike, ...one tip is: you have to gear way down the motor which will increase its final driving torque greatly. So, don't be afraid of smaller size motors. For heavens sake, don't use an auto starter type motor; way too powerful. First engagement would rip your whole tug apart. On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 12:32 PM wrote: > > > Hello all > > > I=99m looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride > on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. > > > I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few > 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure o f > what specs I=99m looking at. > > > One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for > continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and > I=99m not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has als o > suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that > entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems idea l > but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right > down. > > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas > > > Thanks > > > Mike > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-4086849547896881672_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:38:24 PM PST US From: "Gerry van Dyk" Subject: Re[2]: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug If I may suggest, have a look at Minimax Aircraft Tugs for ideas. https://www.minimaxtugs.com/ They've got a range of light tugs built around cordless drills. For the bottom end a commercial worm drive gear box would probably be a good bet. Try searching Ebay for 133ULR20A Browning Raider Worm Gear Reducer. I'd post a link but it's about 7 miles long. That unit is seriously overkill for the purpose, but perhaps there's lighter weight similar units. this might be another option, but you'd need a separate battery and electrical system. https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC12V-12rpm-Speed-Reduction-Worm-Gear-Motor-with-C able-70kg-cm-High-Torque/163673951726?hash=item261bba4dee:g:QhkAAOSwOFFeA x2z Just food for thought Gerry ------ Original Message ------ From: "skywagon185guy ." Sent: 2020-04-11 4:49:35 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug >Mike, >...one tip is: you have to gear way down the motor which will increase >its final driving torque greatly. So, don't be afraid of smaller size >motors. For heavens sake, don't use an auto starter type motor; way too >powerful. First engagement would rip your whole tug apart. > >On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 12:32 PM wrote: >> >> >>Hello all >> >> >> >>I=99m looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a >>ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 >>lbs. >> >> >> >>I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a >>few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not >>sure of what specs I=99m looking at. >> >> >> >>One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for >>continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds >>and I=99m not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has also >>suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that >>entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems >>ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be >>geared right down. >> >> >> >>I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas >> >> >> >>Thanks >> >> >> >>Mike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Virus-free. www.avast.com >> >><#m_-4086849547896881672_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:17 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug From: Charlie England Actually, a starter motor can work if properly geared down; I've got one in my hangar that a friend used to use to drag his C-170 around. It had a full size wet cell car battery for power (weight probably helped with traction) and a chain reduction to the wheels. Sprocket diameters were probably ~1.5" & ~6", but it's been a while since I really looked at it. IIRC, it had a simple forward/reverse switch & a pushbutton to activate it. A 100 yd continuous operation might be a bit much for a starter motor, but it might not be working as hard pulling the a/c on level ground as it is when starting the engine. There's a recently created thread on VAF detailing a shop-built tug using a pair of scooter motors & wheels (purchased as a set on ebay). Uses an off the shelf SLA battery. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=180676&highlight=tug FWIW, Charlie On 4/11/2020 5:49 PM, skywagon185guy . wrote: > Mike, > ...one tip is: you have to gear way down the motor which will increase > its final driving torque greatly. So, don't be afraid of smaller size > motors. For heavens sake, don't use an auto starter type motor; way > too powerful. First engagement would rip your whole tug apart. > > On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 12:32 PM > wrote: > > Hello all > > Im looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not > a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about > 1800 lbs. > > I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are > a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so > am not sure of what specs Im looking at. > > One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated > for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is > 100 yds and Im not sure if it will cope with that distance. A > friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, > not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed > controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful > enough but it will be geared right down. > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas > > Thanks > > Mike > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > <#m_-4086849547896881672_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:47 PM PST US From: Allan Chong Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bose Headset Plug Replacement Send it off to Bose. over 10 years ago, they replaced electronics in their 1st gen headset for almost nothing. I think they also did some extra things gratis like changing the seals. Excellent support on older out of warranty product. Allan ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:16 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug From: Tim Olson I actually have a MiniMax that I've got for sale right now. It's set up for an RV-10/RV-14 but I'm guessing it could be customized for others. Tim On 4/11/20 6:34 PM, Gerry van Dyk wrote: > If I may suggest, have a look at Minimax Aircraft Tugs for ideas. > https://www.minimaxtugs.com/ They've got a range of light tugs built > around cordless drills. > > For the bottom end a commercial worm drive gear box would probably be a > good bet. Try searching Ebay for 133ULR20A Browning Raider Worm Gear > Reducer. I'd post a link but it's about 7 miles long. That unit is > seriously overkill for the purpose, but perhaps there's lighter weight > similar units. > > this might be another option, but you'd need a separate battery and > electrical system. > https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC12V-12rpm-Speed-Reduction-Worm-Gear-Motor-with-Cable-70kg-cm-High-Torque/163673951726?hash=item261bba4dee:g:QhkAAOSwOFFeAx2z > > Just food for thought > Gerry > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "skywagon185guy ." > > To: "aeroelectric list" > > Sent: 2020-04-11 4:49:35 PM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > >> Mike, >> ...one tip is: you have to gear way down the motor which will increase >> its final driving torque greatly. So, don't be afraid of smaller size >> motors. For heavens sake, don't use an auto starter type motor; way >> too powerful. First engagement would rip your whole tug apart. >> >> On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 12:32 PM > > wrote: >> >> __ __ >> >> Hello all____ >> >> __ __ >> >> Im looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not >> a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about >> 1800 lbs.____ >> >> __ __ >> >> I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are >> a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so >> am not sure of what specs Im looking at. ____ >> >> __ __ >> >> One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated >> for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is >> 100 yds and Im not sure if it will cope with that distance. A >> friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, >> not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed >> controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful >> enough but it will be geared right down.____ >> >> __ __ >> >> I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas____ >> >> __ __ >> >> Thanks____ >> >> __ __ >> >> Mike____ >> >> __ __ >> >> __ __ >> >> >> >> Virus-free. www.avast.com >> >> >> >> <#m_-4086849547896881672_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:11 PM PST US From: DeWitt Whittington Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug Tim, what do you want for the MiniMax? And where do you live for shipping cost calculation to Dinwiddie County Airport (KPTB), Virginia. Dee Whittington 804-677-4849 iPhone > On Apr 11, 2020, at 10:44 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > > > I actually have a MiniMax that I've got for sale right now. > It's set up for an RV-10/RV-14 but I'm guessing it could > be customized for others. > Tim > > On 4/11/20 6:34 PM, Gerry van Dyk wrote: >> If I may suggest, have a look at Minimax Aircraft Tugs for ideas. https://www.minimaxtugs.com/ They've got a range of light tugs built around cordless drills. >> For the bottom end a commercial worm drive gear box would probably be a good bet. Try searching Ebay for 133ULR20A Browning Raider Worm Gear Reducer. I'd post a link but it's about 7 miles long. That unit is seriously overkill for the purpose, but perhaps there's lighter weight similar units. >> this might be another option, but you'd need a separate battery and electrical system. >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC12V-12rpm-Speed-Reduction-Worm-Gear-Motor-with-Cable-70kg-cm-High-Torque/163673951726?hash=item261bba4dee:g:QhkAAOSwOFFeAx2z >> Just food for thought >> Gerry >> ------ Original Message ------ >> From: "skywagon185guy ." > >> To: "aeroelectric list" > >> Sent: 2020-04-11 4:49:35 PM >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug >>> Mike, >>> ...one tip is: you have to gear way down the motor which will increase its final driving torque greatly. So, don't be afraid of smaller size motors. For heavens sake, don't use an auto starter type motor; way too powerful. First engagement would rip your whole tug apart. >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 12:32 PM > wrote: >>> >>> __ __ >>> >>> Hello all____ >>> >>> __ __ >>> >>> Im looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not >>> a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about >>> 1800 lbs.____ >>> >>> __ __ >>> >>> I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are >>> a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so >>> am not sure of what specs Im looking at. ____ >>> >>> __ __ >>> >>> One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated >>> for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is >>> 100 yds and Im not sure if it will cope with that distance. A >>> friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, >>> not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed >>> controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful >>> enough but it will be geared right down.____ >>> >>> __ __ >>> >>> I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas____ >>> >>> __ __ >>> >>> Thanks____ >>> >>> __ __ >>> >>> Mike____ >>> >>> __ __ >>> >>> __ __ >>> >>> >>> >>> Virus-free. www.avast.com >>> >>> >>> >>> <#m_-4086849547896881672_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.