Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:31 AM - Re: Aircraft Tug (Bill Bear)
2. 01:36 AM - Re: Aircraft Tug (Bill Bear)
3. 02:07 AM - Re: Re: OV B-lead Relay (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 04:47 AM - Re: OV B-lead Relay (bob noffs)
5. 10:02 AM - Re: Re: OV B-lead Relay (Jeff Luckey)
6. 10:52 AM - Re: Re: OV B-lead Relay (Art Zemon)
7. 11:12 AM - Re: Re: OV B-lead Relay (skywagon185guy .)
8. 11:28 AM - Re: OV B-lead Relay (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 09:43 PM - Re: OV B-lead Relay (Dan Fritz)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Tug |
Thanks, Tom. Gotta add this one to my to do list.
Bill Bear
> On Apr 19, 2020, at 05:09, ktup122@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
> ktup122@aol.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Barter <kesleyelectric@iowatelecom.net>
> To: aeroelectric-list <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sat, Apr 18, 2020 02:20 PM
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug
>
>
> Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk behind snow
blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows speed control going forward
plus reverse. Works very well on his RV-6. Tom BarterFrom: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
<owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com>
On Behalf Of mike@vision499.comSent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PMTo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.comSubject:
AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug Hello
all Im looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on
just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. I am looking
for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale
on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what specs Im looking
at. One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for
continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and Im not
sure if it will cope with that distance. A!
> friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas Thanks Mike Virus-free. www.avast.com
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Tug |
Thanks, Tom. Gotta add this one to my to do list.
Bill Bear
> On Apr 19, 2020, at 05:09, ktup122@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
> ktup122@aol.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Barter <kesleyelectric@iowatelecom.net>
> To: aeroelectric-list <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sat, Apr 18, 2020 02:20 PM
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug
>
>
> Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk behind snow
blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows speed control going forward
plus reverse. Works very well on his RV-6. Tom BarterFrom: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
<owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com>
On Behalf Of mike@vision499.comSent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PMTo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.comSubject:
AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug Hello
all Im looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on
just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. I am looking
for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale
on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what specs Im looking
at. One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for
continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and Im not
sure if it will cope with that distance. A!
> friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas Thanks Mike Virus-free. www.avast.com
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: OV B-lead Relay |
At 11:17 PM 4/19/2020, you wrote:
>
>Thanks for the explanation, Bob! Looks like it's the metal can or
>alternator surgery. I'll do a little research on my alternator and
>the best surgery option.
>
>Dan
if you run across anything useful on the 'net,
be sure to let us know about it.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: OV B-lead Relay |
there is a thread in the past 2 yrs. about ov disconnecting the b lead. bob
posted a link to a 200 amp relay that i did use to wire an ov disconnect
into my b lead. is it being said now that that is a bad idea? i always
expected i would fry the alternator, i only need the disconnect once.
bob noffs
On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 3:53 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> I'm using an IR alternator as my primary source of electrons on my
> Velocity. I'd like to provide overvoltage protection to include
> a B-Lead disconnect relay. With a 34A continuous normal system
> load, will an automotive cube relay rated at 70A be satisfactory
> in lieu of the normally used "metal can" style battery contactor?
>
>
> Figure Z24 has been a burr under my intellectual saddle
> for over 20 years. It was a rather crude band-aid for
> adding ov protection to an internally regulated alternator
> where we, as system integrators, had no absolute control
> over field excitation voltage of the alternator. This
> produces failure modes initiating an uncontrollable
> alternator runaway.
>
> B&C's offerings to the OBAM aviation market exploited
> the fine craftsmanship of some automotive alternators
> by modifying them to accept field excitation from
> an external controller. Plane-Power took a slightly
> different approach . . . their first offerings retained
> the built in regulator but included modifications to
> (1) bring field excitation lead out of the alternator
> and (2) add crowbar ov protection to that field power
> feeder. You can see the crowbar ovm module piggy-backed
> onto a P-P alternator in the attached photo.
>
> The common theme for these offerings is MODIFICATION
> of an off-the-shelf alternator to effect smooth integration
> of the alternator into legacy aircraft system architectures.
> Many moons ago, we had some in-depth discussions about
> 'reliability' of stock automotive products. Admittedly,
> modern alternators do demonstrate exceptionally long
> service lives. If one is content to hang their hat
> on perceived reliability, then putting a stock
> automotive alternator on YOUR project meets design
> goals.
>
> As a system integrator with a few decades of
> experience designing to FMEA protocols, I couldn't
> recommend running the stock alternator 'bare footed'.
> So how to gracefully unhook the stock automotive
> alternator in a runaway condition from the ship's
> electrical system?
>
> Breaking the b-lead is the only option. But instead
> nailing the tiger's tail to the ground, we're working
> on the other end of this flame-throwing beast.
>
> The physical realities for this condition are:
>
> The alternator's field excitation is derived
> directly from the b-lead.
>
> So once the b-lead disconnect's from the system
> in general and the battery in particular, b-lead
> voltage rises exponentially.
>
> That rise is exacerbated by the fact that in
> milliseconds after onset of the ov condition,
> the alternator will be in full current limited
> output with the battery grunting the excess
> energy.
>
> When the b-lead is broken, the effect is
> like a race horse shot out of the gate on
> springs. Voltage goes up, field excitation
> goes up, voltage takes off for the moon.
>
> While breaking this pathway will isolate
> the alternator from the ship's systems, it
> cannot isolate the alternator from itself.
> The voltage will rise very rapidly to perhaps
> hundreds of volts. This puts alternator
> rectifiers and field windings at risk for
> failure. It is almost a certainty that
> the failed alternator will not enjoy
> a gentle outcome for the ov event.
>
> Selection of the disconnect relay is a
> bit more problematic than routine
> control tasks in the rest of the system.
> Our relay must survive a break of this
> rapidly rising, robust current source.
>
> Spectacular arcing will most certainly
> establish in the gap of spreading contacts.
> The relay of choice should have thermally
> massive contacts . . . and preferably
> be of the double make-break variety.
> Further, it the fire doesn't go out,
> it's a pretty good idea to pick an
> enclosure likely to contain the effects.
>
> The other attached figure speaks to features
> in the legacy 'whisky barrel' contactors.
> There are two contacts in series for
> 2x the spreading velocity of a 'relay'.
> The contacts are thermally massive
> to help conduct heat out of the arc as
> the contacts spread. The enclosure is
> likely to contain any electrical conflagration
> that fails to extinguish.
>
> The short answer to your question is: That
> contactor was selected for reasons beyond
> the device's ratings. Substitutions are
> not recommended.
>
> The elegant answer suggests you modify
> your alternator to ground one brush and
> bring the other one out to a generic
> 'ford' regulator as depicted in Z101.
>
> It's not a difficult mod. Best yet, it
> reduces energy release in an ov event
> to a tiny fraction of that produced by
> a b-lead disconnect. No arcs, no flame,
> just a little 'click' as the field
> breaker opens. No hardware in the alternator
> b-lead.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: OV B-lead Relay |
I am currently bench testing a Motorcraft alternator from a 84 Bronco.=C2
- It's a re-build from the local NAPA auto parts store.=C2- About $60.
=C2- It's rated at 60A and weighs about 10 pounds.
I selected it because:
1. It's setup for/requires an external regulator2. It is a 'B' circuit alte
rnator3. It was used in all kinds of Fords in the 80s and therefore should
be easy to get replacement when "on the road"4. It comes with a single-groo
ve pulley. (more modern alternators have pulleys for serpentine belts)5. It
's inexpensive
I'm curious what other people are using...
-Jeff
On Monday, April 20, 2020, 02:15:04 AM PDT, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nu
ckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
At 11:17 PM 4/19/2020, you wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List messageposted by: "Dan Fritz" <Dfritzj@yahoo.com>
Thanks for the explanation, Bob!=C2- Looks like it's the metal can oralte
rnator surgery.=C2- I'll do a little research on my alternator andthe bes
t surgery option.
Dan
=C2- if you run across anything useful on the 'net,
=C2- be sure to let us know about it.
=C2- Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: OV B-lead Relay |
Jeff,
I have two alternators, a B&C Aero BC460-H (60 amps, 7.1 pounds) and a
backup alternator the BC410-H (20-40 amps, 5.75 pounds)
-- Art Z.
On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 12:29 PM Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net> wrote:
> I am currently bench testing a Motorcraft alternator from a 84 Bronco.
> It's a re-build from the local NAPA auto parts store. About $60. It's
> rated at 60A and weighs about 10 pounds.
>
> I selected it because:
>
> 1. It's setup for/requires an external regulator
> 2. It is a 'B' circuit alternator
> 3. It was used in all kinds of Fords in the 80s and therefore should be
> easy to get replacement when "on the road"
> 4. It comes with a single-groove pulley. (more modern alternators have
> pulleys for serpentine belts)
> 5. It's inexpensive
>
> I'm curious what other people are using...
>
> -Jeff
>
> On Monday, April 20, 2020, 02:15:04 AM PDT, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>
> At 11:17 PM 4/19/2020, you wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for the explanation, Bob! Looks like it's the metal can or
> alternator surgery. I'll do a little research on my alternator and the
> best surgery option.
>
> Dan
>
>
> if you run across anything useful on the 'net,
> be sure to let us know about it.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*Sooner meet a bereaved she-bear than a fool with his nonsense. *Proverbs
17:12
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: OV B-lead Relay |
Jeff,
Ford Alternator...
Good choice, besides your list of benefits, add these
* can use Ford regulators, even the heavy duty ones are in the $20+ range
* If you ever have to have the alt. serviced, checked, etc., any electrical
shop will do it and you won't have to fib that it is out of an airplane.
(mention airplane and the shop may hand it back to you...). But, clearly a
Ford product that they have serviced 100's of ; no questions.
On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 10:57 AM Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
> Jeff,
>
> I have two alternators, a B&C Aero BC460-H (60 amps, 7.1 pounds) and a
> backup alternator the BC410-H (20-40 amps, 5.75 pounds)
>
> -- Art Z.
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 12:29 PM Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> I am currently bench testing a Motorcraft alternator from a 84 Bronco.
>> It's a re-build from the local NAPA auto parts store. About $60. It's
>> rated at 60A and weighs about 10 pounds.
>>
>> I selected it because:
>>
>> 1. It's setup for/requires an external regulator
>> 2. It is a 'B' circuit alternator
>> 3. It was used in all kinds of Fords in the 80s and therefore should be
>> easy to get replacement when "on the road"
>> 4. It comes with a single-groove pulley. (more modern alternators have
>> pulleys for serpentine belts)
>> 5. It's inexpensive
>>
>> I'm curious what other people are using...
>>
>> -Jeff
>>
>> On Monday, April 20, 2020, 02:15:04 AM PDT, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
>> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> At 11:17 PM 4/19/2020, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the explanation, Bob! Looks like it's the metal can or
>> alternator surgery. I'll do a little research on my alternator and the
>> best surgery option.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>>
>> if you run across anything useful on the 'net,
>> be sure to let us know about it.
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
> *Sooner meet a bereaved she-bear than a fool with his nonsense. *Proverbs
> 17:12
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: OV B-lead Relay |
At 06:44 AM 4/20/2020, you wrote:
>there is a thread in the past 2 yrs. about ov
>disconnecting the b lead. bob posted a link to a
>200 amp relay that i did use to wire an ov
>disconnect into my b lead. is it being said now
>that that is a bad idea? i always expected i
>would fry the alternator, i only need the disconnect once.
>=C2 bob noffs
Refresh my memory . . . what kind of relay
made it into your system? Can you give
me a date on the thread?
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: OV B-lead Relay |
Hi Bob, I've been doing some searching and found a couple of tutorials on modifying
an alternator to external regulation and am considering whether to attempt
the mod. While searching, I also found an article of yours from Feb 2004 (Load
Dump Damage to Alternators with Built-in Regulators). Were you ever able
to get test results from your proposed Z-24 with a TVS diode installed?
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495933#495933
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