Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:57 AM - Get rid of Outlook issues (jw06033)
2. 06:23 AM - Re: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control (Roger&Jean)
3. 07:10 AM - Re: Re: OV B-lead Relay (Finn Lassen)
4. 10:58 AM - Re: Re: OV B-lead Relay (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 12:00 PM - Re: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 12:15 PM - Re: Get rid of Outlook issues (skywagon185guy .)
7. 12:29 PM - Re: Get rid of Outlook issues (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control (Jeff Luckey)
9. 01:00 PM - Re: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control (Kent or Jackie Ashton)
10. 03:23 PM - Re: Re: OV B-lead Relay (Finn Lassen)
11. 05:23 PM - Re: Re: OV B-lead Relay (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 06:20 PM - Re: Re: OV B-lead Relay (Finn Lassen)
13. 06:42 PM - Minimum wire size in aircraft (Finn Lassen)
14. 07:32 PM - Re: Minimum wire size in aircraft (dglaeser)
15. 08:33 PM - Re: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control (A R Goldman)
16. 11:25 PM - Re: Alternator Mod to External Control (Dan Fritz)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Get rid of Outlook issues |
Are you getting technical problems with your Outlook account and need to fix it? Dial our Outlook customer service number (https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-outlook-support) to solve issues.
The outlook is a Microsofts best product for email application and we use it on daily basis, so sometimes we face some issues with it like No connection, Outlook error codes 0x80070002, time-out error, the server could not be found, unable to start MS Outlook, and unable to send mails. These types of issues occur because of any reason that you will get from our Microsoft Support (https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-support) website. We are available here to fix your Outlook issues, so if you are one of them who is getting technical issues with outlook then dont panic and just contact our experts through our Outlook support phone number (https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-outlook-support). We are here to help you, so contact us without any hesitation.
People also ask about FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions) of Outlook, so here I am giving my web-page link How do I call Outlook support? (https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-outlook-support), you may click and visit for more information.
Ref. URL:
http://www.apsense.com/article/get-rid-of-outlook-issues-customer-service.html
Thank You!
--------
https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-support
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495957#495957
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Mod to External Control |
Bob,
I didn't see any electrical diagram to show how the 2 new wires are connected to
the system.
Roger
Sent from: YOGA TABLET 10 HD+
On Apr 21, 2020 10:23 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
>
> At 02:59 AM 4/21/2020, you wrote:
>>
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> Recently there has been a bit of talk re using an controlling internally controlled
alternators. It is very easy to modify them.
>>
>> In Kitplanes for Nov 2019 I had published an article on how how to modify an
alternator (Nippon Denso) with virtually no surgery; and it can be easily restored
to standard. Doing this totally eliminates all the hassles with the internally
regulated unit. Just use the B&C Regulator.
>>
>> Graeme Coates
>>
>> Melbourne, Australia
>
>
> I've contacted Marc Cook at Kitplanes who has graciously
> approved a reprint on AeroElectric.com.
>
> Interested readers can access this nicely illustrated article at:
>
> http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Alternators/NiponDenso_Modification_Nov_2019_Kitplanes.pdf
>
>
> Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: OV B-lead Relay |
On 4/21/2020 8:21 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> But given the ease with which the alternator
> can be modified into a real 'aircraft'
> part, any notions of a Z24 update are not
> so interesting.
That's what I was going to do and only have a fuseable link between B+
and battery.
But a remark of "other possible alternator failure mode" made me
consider putting a 80A "cube" relay in that path.
I assumed that that "other failure mode" would be a shorted rectifier
diode (drawing current from battery). Not sure of the likelihood of such
a failure. In my experience diodes fail open (and zeners fail shorted).
I really don't like a contactor because of weight and the current it
draws. The 80A relay has a 85 ohm coil resistance. and the contactor I
have 15 ohms. 2 W vs 12 W.
I should mention I'm putting a Mazda 13B (Renesis) in an RV-4. So in a
battery-only (no alternator) situation, it's important to be able to
shred all loads that are not required to keep the engine running and I'm
designing to electrical system accordingly. The manufacturer (RWS) of
the engine controller recommends engine-essential item be powered
directly from battery (via one switch/breaker). However, having
dissected a failed (open) W31- breaker/switch, I'll double that with a
pull-breaker, and have changed from switch/breakers to a fuse block.and
switches for pumps, injectors, coils, etc.
Finn
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: OV B-lead Relay |
>That's what I was going to do and only have a fuseable link between
>B+ and battery.
That works
>But a remark of "other possible alternator failure mode" made
>me consider putting a 80A "cube" relay in that path.
Waaayyy back in the dark ages, during the adolescent
years of automotive alternators, the rectifiers were
no so robust. I first hired into Electro-Mech about
1975. One of our products was a device you could add
to your alternator-fitted automobile to convert it
to a 100V dc power source to run lights and universal
appliances 'in the field'.
Worked okay most of the time but two many installations
on Chrysler products were popping alternator diodes
as a result of this installation. Had to do a messy
recall. 30 years later, after inheriting a house from
my father, I found one of these critters new in the box
out in his shop. It never got installed.
I suspect you could make this thing work
on any modern alternator. The diodes have "come
along way baby!"
>I assumed that that "other failure mode" would be a shorted rectifier diode
>(drawing current from battery). Not sure of the likelihood of such a failure.
>In my experience diodes fail open (and zeners fail shorted).
Actually, both devices are most likely to fail
shorted due to thermal destruction of the PN
barrier.
>I really don't like a contactor because of weight and the current it draws.
>The 80A relay has a 85 ohm coil resistance. and the contactor I have 15 ohms.
>2 W vs 12 W.
The WR/Stancore contactor warms up pretty
good and will stabilize at some more
friendly current.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Battery_Contactor_Temps_1.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Battery_Contactor_Temps_2.jpg
It will stabilize at about 0.6A at 14V or 8.5W
Does your load analysis show that 'saving' a couple
of watts is useful? But the greatest savings
are secured by not having the contactor in the
first place.
>I should mention I'm putting a Mazda 13B (Renesis) in an RV-4. So in
>a battery-only
>(no alternator) situation, it's important to be able to shed all
>loads that are not
>required to keep the engine running and I'm designing to electrical
>system accordingly.
>The manufacturer (RWS) of the engine controller recommends
>engine-essential item be
>powered directly from battery (via one switch/breaker). However,
>having dissected a
>failed (open) W31- breaker/switch, I'll double that with a pull-breaker,
Why any breaker at all? Yeah, I worked on the team
that wrestled with that same failure in nearly
the entire fleet of Bonanzas and Barons.
>and have changed from switch/breakers to a fuse block.and switches for pumps,
>injectors, coils, etc.
Yup, they ALL want you to tie right to the battery.
Suggest you consider a dual feed Engine Bus as shown
in Z101.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Mod to External Control |
At 12:52 AM 4/22/2020, you wrote:
>
>So I just reviewed the Kitplanes article and it got me thinking of a
>potentially simpler solution. Please tell me if I'm crazy, but why
>not just replace the screw in the left brush mount with a
>non-conductive screw and insert fiber washers to insulate the brush
>mount from the B-lead. Would this then effectively separate the
>field from the b-lead and make the field to the internal regulator
>fully controllable using the already installed IGN connection? What
>am I missing?
I'm not intimately familiar with the
brush-holder configuration . . . it's
been some years since I put my hands
on a disassembled ND. Your suggestion
appears to have merit but I would have
concerns about the electrical integrity
of a made-up joint held with a plastic
screw.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Get rid of Outlook issues |
Will never know how this "stuff" gets on the aeroelectric list...!!
I would be very careful/suspicious of clicking on any of this email.....
On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 2:01 AM jw06033 <jw06033@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Are you getting technical problems with your Outlook account and need to
> fix it? Dial our Outlook customer service number (
> https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-outlook-support) to
> solve issues.
> The outlook is a Microsoft=99s best product for email application a
nd we use
> it on daily basis, so sometimes we face some issues with it like No
> connection, Outlook error codes 0x80070002, time-out error, the server
> could not be found, unable to start MS Outlook, and unable to send mails.
> These types of issues occur because of any reason that you will get from
> our Microsoft Support (
> https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-support) website. We
> are available here to fix your Outlook issues, so if you are one of them
> who is getting technical issues with outlook then don=99t panic and
just
> contact our experts through our Outlook support phone number (
> https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-outlook-support). We
> are here to help you, so contact us without any hesitation.
> People also ask about FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions) of Outlook, so
> here I am giving my web-page link =9CHow do I call Outlook support
? (
> https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-outlook-support)
=9D,
> you may click and visit for more information.
> Ref. URL:
>
> http://www.apsense.com/article/get-rid-of-outlook-issues-customer-service
.html
> Thank You!
>
> --------
> https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-support
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495957#495957
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Get rid of Outlook issues |
At 02:10 PM 4/22/2020, you wrote:
>Will never know how this "stuff" gets on the aeroelectric list...!!
>I would be very careful/suspicious of clicking on any of this email.....
For every clever firewall there's a bunch
of nefarious programmers/spammers with
nothing better to do than be a nuisance.
Just ignore these 'off topic' posts even
if they 'appear' to originate with
a righteous List member.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Mod to External Control |
Interestingly enough, I had just made this mod to a Denso alternator about
a week ago, but I had never seen the article Bob references.
I contemplated using a nylon screw (the screw is a metric 3 or 4 mm) but re
jected the idea based on the fact that the screw in question is one of two
that mounts the brush rig.=C2- I deemed that a nylon screw was not strong
enough for that duty.=C2- Therefore I used a couple of nylon shoulder wa
shers on the existing steel screw to electrically isolate.
Also,
I rejected the Denso alternator altogether because I found a Ford alternato
r=C2-(from 84 Bronco) that was designed for external regulation.
-Jeff
On Wednesday, April 22, 2020, 12:14:22 PM PDT, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
At 12:52 AM 4/22/2020, you wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List messageposted by: "Dan Fritz" <Dfritzj@yahoo.com>
So I just reviewed the Kitplanes article and it got me thinking of apotenti
ally simpler solution. Please tell me if I'm crazy, but why notjust replace
the screw in the left brush mount with a non-conductivescrew and insert fi
ber washers to insulate the brush mount from theB-lead.=C2- Would this th
en effectively separate the field from theb-lead and make the field to the
internal regulator fully controllableusing the already installed IGN connec
tion?=C2- What am Imissing?
=C2- I'm not intimately familiar with the
=C2- brush-holder configuration . . . it's
=C2- been some years since I put my hands
=C2- on a disassembled ND. Your suggestion
=C2- appears to have merit but I would have
=C2- concerns about the electrical integrity
=C2- of a made-up joint held with a plastic
=C2- screw.
=C2- Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Mod to External Control |
Heres another way to mod the alternator, FWIW. It involves desoldering one of
the brush wires and sleeving a replacement wire with shrink wrap where it goes
through the brush hole in the back of the brushholder. That serves the same
purpose as the insulated screw which isolates that side of the brush. The brush
holders are cheap so you can experiment.
https://www.canardzone.com/forums/topic/18661-kents-long-ez-project/page/11/?tab=comments#comment-61828
-Kent
> On Apr 22, 2020, at 2:57 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
>
> At 12:52 AM 4/22/2020, you wrote:
>>
>> So I just reviewed the Kitplanes article and it got me thinking of a potentially
simpler solution. Please tell me if I'm crazy, but why not just replace the
screw in the left brush mount with a non-conductive screw and insert fiber
washers to insulate the brush mount from the B-lead. Would this then effectively
separate the field from the b-lead and make the field to the internal regulator
fully controllable using the already installed IGN connection? What am
I missing?
>
> I'm not intimately familiar with the
> brush-holder configuration . . . it's
> been some years since I put my hands
> on a disassembled ND. Your suggestion
> appears to have merit but I would have
> concerns about the electrical integrity
> of a made-up joint held with a plastic
> screw.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: OV B-lead Relay |
On 4/22/2020 1:54 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> Why any breaker at all?
Indeed, with just a fusible link between battery and engine fuse block,
why a switch-breaker?
The only answer I can come up with: convenience.
Powered by the engine bus are:
Engine controller A
Engine Controller B (yes, redundant controllers)
Primary fuel pump
Backup fuel pump
Primary fuel injectors
Secondary fuel injectors (fuel injection is staged, at certain MAP the
second set of injectors are used too)
Leading ignition coils
Trailing ignition coils (13B has two spark plugs per rotor)
Engine monitor (strictly speaking not needed for engine to keep running)
O2 sensor (strictly speaking not needed for engine to keep running)
Left to right tank transfer pump (strictly speaking not needed for
engine to keep running)
Starter relay (strictly speaking not needed for engine to keep running)
Put the last four items on the engine bus "because they are engine
related".
After normal flight I will have to shut off 9 to10 switches rather than
just one to ensure that engine bus does not drain battery.
Separate switches for A & B controllers are not mentioned by the
manufacturer. He recommends just a switch/breaker directly to battery
feeding controllers and monitor. But for reason mentioned earlier, I now
prefer fuses and like the ability to disconnect a misbehaving
controller. (There is an A/B switch, so really would be for the rare
situation where voltage regulator in one controller draws high current
without blowing its fuse.) Could have one switch, but then I would want
inline fuses after the switch.
Regarding diodes feeding engine bus, from the EC3 manual:
"Also note that the use of main battery power contactors and power
distribution devices incorporating isolation diodes for backup battery
connections are not recommended for alternative engine installations."
I can only guess the reason is that a diode will prevent the battery to
act as a very effective noise filter.
Thank you Bob for all you do and your advice.
Finn
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: OV B-lead Relay |
At 05:17 PM 4/22/2020, you wrote:
>On 4/22/2020 1:54 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>=EF=BDWhy any breaker at all?
>
>Indeed, with just a fusible link between battery
>and engine fuse block, why a switch-breaker?
>
>The only answer I can come up with: convenience.
The Engine Bus is part of your power distribution
system. As a member of the FAT-wire family, no
disconnects for the bus are called for . . . see
Engine Bus in Z1010
>Powered by the engine bus are:
>
>Engine controller A
>Engine Controller B (yes, redundant controllers)
>Primary fuel pump
>Backup fuel pump
>Primary fuel injectors
>Secondary fuel injectors (fuel injection is
>staged, at certain MAP the second set of injectors are used too)
>Leading ignition coils
>Trailing ignition coils (13B has two spark plugs per rotor)
>Engine monitor (strictly speaking not needed for engine to keep running)
>O2 sensor (strictly speaking not needed for engine to keep running)
>Left to right tank transfer pump (strictly
>speaking not needed for engine to keep running)
>Starter relay (strictly speaking not needed for engine to keep running)
>
>Put the last four items on the engine bus "because they are engine
related".
>
>After normal flight I will have to shut off 9 to10 switches rather than
>just one to ensure that engine bus does not drain battery.
10 switches? This sounds like a recipe for mis-selection
in times of stressful ops. How will your check-list read
for "In case of engine malfunction". If there is no
check list included in the engine documentation, then
CREATE ONE. You don't want to succumb to switch-flipitis
at 8,000 feet.
>Separate switches for A & B controllers are not mentioned by the
manufacturer.
>He recommends just a switch/breaker directly to battery feeding controllers
>and monitor.
but he is not a system integrator
>But for reason mentioned earlier, I now prefer fuses and like the
>ability to disconnect a misbehaving controller. (There is an A/B switch,
>so really would be for the rare situation where voltage regulator in one
>controller draws high current without blowing its fuse.)
How about a two pole switch. One pole for each
controller. Each protected by a fuse AT THE BUS?
> Could have one switch, but then I would want inline fuses after the
switch.
>
>Regarding diodes feeding engine bus, from the EC3 manual:
>"Also note that the use of main battery power contactors and
>power distribution devices incorporating isolation diodes for
>backup battery connections are not recommended for alternative
>engine installations."
>
>I can only guess the reason is that a diode will
>prevent the battery to act as a very effective noise filter.
Don't GUESS . . . KNOW. Call the dude up and
get an explanation. BTW, batteries are not
'noise filters' at any level.
>Thank you Bob for all you do and your advice.
You're most welcome my friend. That's what
we do here . . .
Is there a .pdf installation manual for this system
that I could see?
Bob . . .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: OV B-lead Relay |
On 4/22/2020 8:19 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> 10 switches? This sounds like a recipe for mis-selection
> in times of stressful ops. How will your check-list read
> for "In case of engine malfunction".
Yes, one definitely needs to be familiar with how the system functions.
I've been flying my RV-3B with basically the same system for 100s of hours.
I am developing checklists, but will be no substitute for knowing how
the system works when it comes to troubleshooting.
Example of run-up procedure (to test that backup pump, both controllers,
all ignition coils and injectors work):
Turn on backup fuel pump, fuel pressure should rise a bit, turn back off.
RPM to 3,600, adjust mixture as needed.
Turn off primary injectors, note RPM drop, turn back on.
Turn off secondary injectors, note RPM drop, turn back on.
Select controller B.
Disable leading coils ( (On)-Off-(On) switch), note RPM drop.
Disable trailing coils (same (On)-Off-(On) switch), note RPM drop.
Select controller A.
RPM to idle.
(The two switches powering the leading and trailing coil sets are purely
for troubleshooting and to turn off power to the coils. It could be just
one switch, but then would want in-line fuses after the switch.)
I can understand how so many switches can appear confusing, but in
practice it becomes second nature.
"How about a two pole switch. One pole for each
controller. Each protected by a fuse AT THE BUS?"
Nope, controllers are designed to normally both be powered on. For
example, there is an option to copy tuning parameters from A to B
(should not be done in the air).
"Is there a .pdf installation manual for this system
that I could see?"
Emailed you the manual. Doesn't really belong on this list, even though
everything is now open source after Tracy retired.
Finn
Message 13
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| Subject: | Minimum wire size in aircraft |
I've been told that the minimum wire size allowed in an aircraft is 22 AWG.
Why?
A LED position light in the tail pulling less than 0.5A would have less
than 0.3V drop over a 17 foot run.
Is it a mechanical issue?
Doesn't make any sense to me.
Finn
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Minimum wire size in aircraft |
Who is it that told you that?
Nobody told the Ray Allen trim folks about that rule . They use 26 AWG for their
wiring. They are a pain for making connections, so most folks prefer using
22AWG or larger for ease of use, but smaller wires are obviously allowed.
--------
Dennis Glaeser
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495973#495973
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Mod to External Control |
Kent,
Thank you for your description and photos of your conversion
It may be my aging eyes but the text in the photos is impossible to read. The device
is in perfect focus indicating a possible depth of field problem. If you
are using a cell phone focus on the tags. In any case more light will create
a greater depth of field and get everything in focus
Thanks again
Rich
Sent from my iPhone
> On Apr 22, 2020, at 2:55 PM, Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton@vnet.net> wrote:
>
>
> Heres another way to mod the alternator, FWIW. It involves desoldering one of
the brush wires and sleeving a replacement wire with shrink wrap where it goes
through the brush hole in the back of the brushholder. That serves the same
purpose as the insulated screw which isolates that side of the brush. The brush
holders are cheap so you can experiment.
> https://www.canardzone.com/forums/topic/18661-kents-long-ez-project/page/11/?tab=comments#comment-61828
> -Kent
>
>> On Apr 22, 2020, at 2:57 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
>>
>> At 12:52 AM 4/22/2020, you wrote:
>>>
>>> So I just reviewed the Kitplanes article and it got me thinking of a potentially
simpler solution. Please tell me if I'm crazy, but why not just replace
the screw in the left brush mount with a non-conductive screw and insert fiber
washers to insulate the brush mount from the B-lead. Would this then effectively
separate the field from the b-lead and make the field to the internal regulator
fully controllable using the already installed IGN connection? What am
I missing?
>>
>> I'm not intimately familiar with the
>> brush-holder configuration . . . it's
>> been some years since I put my hands
>> on a disassembled ND. Your suggestion
>> appears to have merit but I would have
>> concerns about the electrical integrity
>> of a made-up joint held with a plastic
>> screw.
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Mod to External Control |
Hello All,
I got some non-conductive glass-filled nylon screws (m4 x 10) from McMaster Carr
today to test my proposed alternator mod. Photos of my mod are attached below.
The mod was extremely simple, just remove the brush holder, loosen the three
regulator mount screws, slip a fiber washer between the regulator mount and
B-Lead connection, drop the brush holder back in place and replace one of the
two screws with the glass-filled nylon one. The whole operation took about
10 minutes to do the first time (probably about 3 minutes after that).
The field terminal is now isolated from the B-lead and appears to work correctly.
I wasn't able to spin the alternator up enough on the bench to ensure it still
charges correctly and stops charging with removal of the field voltage.
I'll have to try that once the engine is running or I find a better bench setup.
Glass filled nylon screws appear to have a tensile strength of 25 ksi and is supposed
to be good to 300 degrees F. I plan to disassemble and inspect after about
10 hours of engine run time to see how the screw is faring. If it looks
like the screw won't survive, I'll buy a $20 ceramic screw to replace it.
I'll let the group know if this is successful once I can get a solid test of the
alternator accomplished. If so, the mod is dead simple and will give full control
of the regulator, allowing the traditional crowbar OVP to work as designed.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495977#495977
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/alternator_mod_142.pdf
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