---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 04/22/20: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:57 AM - Get rid of Outlook issues (jw06033) 2. 06:23 AM - Re: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control (Roger&Jean) 3. 07:10 AM - Re: Re: OV B-lead Relay (Finn Lassen) 4. 10:58 AM - Re: Re: OV B-lead Relay (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 12:00 PM - Re: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 12:15 PM - Re: Get rid of Outlook issues (skywagon185guy .) 7. 12:29 PM - Re: Get rid of Outlook issues (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control (Jeff Luckey) 9. 01:00 PM - Re: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control (Kent or Jackie Ashton) 10. 03:23 PM - Re: Re: OV B-lead Relay (Finn Lassen) 11. 05:23 PM - Re: Re: OV B-lead Relay (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 06:20 PM - Re: Re: OV B-lead Relay (Finn Lassen) 13. 06:42 PM - Minimum wire size in aircraft (Finn Lassen) 14. 07:32 PM - Re: Minimum wire size in aircraft (dglaeser) 15. 08:33 PM - Re: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control (A R Goldman) 16. 11:25 PM - Re: Alternator Mod to External Control (Dan Fritz) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:57:40 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Get rid of Outlook issues From: "jw06033" Are you getting technical problems with your Outlook account and need to fix it? Dial our Outlook customer service number (https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-outlook-support) to solve issues. The outlook is a Microsofts best product for email application and we use it on daily basis, so sometimes we face some issues with it like No connection, Outlook error codes 0x80070002, time-out error, the server could not be found, unable to start MS Outlook, and unable to send mails. These types of issues occur because of any reason that you will get from our Microsoft Support (https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-support) website. We are available here to fix your Outlook issues, so if you are one of them who is getting technical issues with outlook then dont panic and just contact our experts through our Outlook support phone number (https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-outlook-support). We are here to help you, so contact us without any hesitation. People also ask about FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions) of Outlook, so here I am giving my web-page link How do I call Outlook support? (https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-outlook-support), you may click and visit for more information. Ref. URL: http://www.apsense.com/article/get-rid-of-outlook-issues-customer-service.html Thank You! -------- https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-support Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495957#495957 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control From: Roger&Jean Bob, I didn't see any electrical diagram to show how the 2 new wires are connected to the system. Roger Sent from: YOGA TABLET 10 HD+ On Apr 21, 2020 10:23 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > At 02:59 AM 4/21/2020, you wrote: >> >> Hi Bob, >> >> Recently there has been a bit of talk re using an controlling internally controlled alternators. It is very easy to modify them. >> >> In Kitplanes for Nov 2019 I had published an article on how how to modify an alternator (Nippon Denso) with virtually no surgery; and it can be easily restored to standard. Doing this totally eliminates all the hassles with the internally regulated unit. Just use the B&C Regulator. >> >> Graeme Coates >> >> Melbourne, Australia > > > I've contacted Marc Cook at Kitplanes who has graciously > approved a reprint on AeroElectric.com. > > Interested readers can access this nicely illustrated article at: > > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Alternators/NiponDenso_Modification_Nov_2019_Kitplanes.pdf > > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:42 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: OV B-lead Relay From: Finn Lassen On 4/21/2020 8:21 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > But given the ease with which the alternator > can be modified into a real 'aircraft' > part, any notions of a Z24 update are not > so interesting. That's what I was going to do and only have a fuseable link between B+ and battery. But a remark of "other possible alternator failure mode" made me consider putting a 80A "cube" relay in that path. I assumed that that "other failure mode" would be a shorted rectifier diode (drawing current from battery). Not sure of the likelihood of such a failure. In my experience diodes fail open (and zeners fail shorted). I really don't like a contactor because of weight and the current it draws. The 80A relay has a 85 ohm coil resistance. and the contactor I have 15 ohms. 2 W vs 12 W. I should mention I'm putting a Mazda 13B (Renesis) in an RV-4. So in a battery-only (no alternator) situation, it's important to be able to shred all loads that are not required to keep the engine running and I'm designing to electrical system accordingly. The manufacturer (RWS) of the engine controller recommends engine-essential item be powered directly from battery (via one switch/breaker). However, having dissected a failed (open) W31- breaker/switch, I'll double that with a pull-breaker, and have changed from switch/breakers to a fuse block.and switches for pumps, injectors, coils, etc. Finn ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:58:24 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: OV B-lead Relay >That's what I was going to do and only have a fuseable link between >B+ and battery. That works >But a remark of "other possible alternator failure mode" made >me consider putting a 80A "cube" relay in that path. Waaayyy back in the dark ages, during the adolescent years of automotive alternators, the rectifiers were no so robust. I first hired into Electro-Mech about 1975. One of our products was a device you could add to your alternator-fitted automobile to convert it to a 100V dc power source to run lights and universal appliances 'in the field'. Worked okay most of the time but two many installations on Chrysler products were popping alternator diodes as a result of this installation. Had to do a messy recall. 30 years later, after inheriting a house from my father, I found one of these critters new in the box out in his shop. It never got installed. I suspect you could make this thing work on any modern alternator. The diodes have "come along way baby!" >I assumed that that "other failure mode" would be a shorted rectifier diode >(drawing current from battery). Not sure of the likelihood of such a failure. >In my experience diodes fail open (and zeners fail shorted). Actually, both devices are most likely to fail shorted due to thermal destruction of the PN barrier. >I really don't like a contactor because of weight and the current it draws. >The 80A relay has a 85 ohm coil resistance. and the contactor I have 15 ohms. >2 W vs 12 W. The WR/Stancore contactor warms up pretty good and will stabilize at some more friendly current. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Battery_Contactor_Temps_1.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Battery_Contactor_Temps_2.jpg It will stabilize at about 0.6A at 14V or 8.5W Does your load analysis show that 'saving' a couple of watts is useful? But the greatest savings are secured by not having the contactor in the first place. >I should mention I'm putting a Mazda 13B (Renesis) in an RV-4. So in >a battery-only >(no alternator) situation, it's important to be able to shed all >loads that are not >required to keep the engine running and I'm designing to electrical >system accordingly. >The manufacturer (RWS) of the engine controller recommends >engine-essential item be >powered directly from battery (via one switch/breaker). However, >having dissected a >failed (open) W31- breaker/switch, I'll double that with a pull-breaker, Why any breaker at all? Yeah, I worked on the team that wrestled with that same failure in nearly the entire fleet of Bonanzas and Barons. >and have changed from switch/breakers to a fuse block.and switches for pumps, >injectors, coils, etc. Yup, they ALL want you to tie right to the battery. Suggest you consider a dual feed Engine Bus as shown in Z101. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:00:17 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control At 12:52 AM 4/22/2020, you wrote: > >So I just reviewed the Kitplanes article and it got me thinking of a >potentially simpler solution. Please tell me if I'm crazy, but why >not just replace the screw in the left brush mount with a >non-conductive screw and insert fiber washers to insulate the brush >mount from the B-lead. Would this then effectively separate the >field from the b-lead and make the field to the internal regulator >fully controllable using the already installed IGN connection? What >am I missing? I'm not intimately familiar with the brush-holder configuration . . . it's been some years since I put my hands on a disassembled ND. Your suggestion appears to have merit but I would have concerns about the electrical integrity of a made-up joint held with a plastic screw. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:15:23 PM PST US From: "skywagon185guy ." Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Get rid of Outlook issues Will never know how this "stuff" gets on the aeroelectric list...!! I would be very careful/suspicious of clicking on any of this email..... On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 2:01 AM jw06033 wrote: > > Are you getting technical problems with your Outlook account and need to > fix it? Dial our Outlook customer service number ( > https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-outlook-support) to > solve issues. > The outlook is a Microsoft=99s best product for email application a nd we use > it on daily basis, so sometimes we face some issues with it like No > connection, Outlook error codes 0x80070002, time-out error, the server > could not be found, unable to start MS Outlook, and unable to send mails. > These types of issues occur because of any reason that you will get from > our Microsoft Support ( > https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-support) website. We > are available here to fix your Outlook issues, so if you are one of them > who is getting technical issues with outlook then don=99t panic and just > contact our experts through our Outlook support phone number ( > https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-outlook-support). We > are here to help you, so contact us without any hesitation. > People also ask about FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions) of Outlook, so > here I am giving my web-page link =9CHow do I call Outlook support ? ( > https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-outlook-support) =9D, > you may click and visit for more information. > Ref. URL: > > http://www.apsense.com/article/get-rid-of-outlook-issues-customer-service .html > Thank You! > > -------- > https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-support > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495957#495957 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:29:06 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Get rid of Outlook issues At 02:10 PM 4/22/2020, you wrote: >Will never know how this "stuff" gets on the aeroelectric list...!! >I would be very careful/suspicious of clicking on any of this email..... For every clever firewall there's a bunch of nefarious programmers/spammers with nothing better to do than be a nuisance. Just ignore these 'off topic' posts even if they 'appear' to originate with a righteous List member. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:34:49 PM PST US From: Jeff Luckey Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control Interestingly enough, I had just made this mod to a Denso alternator about a week ago, but I had never seen the article Bob references. I contemplated using a nylon screw (the screw is a metric 3 or 4 mm) but re jected the idea based on the fact that the screw in question is one of two that mounts the brush rig.=C2- I deemed that a nylon screw was not strong enough for that duty.=C2- Therefore I used a couple of nylon shoulder wa shers on the existing steel screw to electrically isolate. Also, I rejected the Denso alternator altogether because I found a Ford alternato r=C2-(from 84 Bronco) that was designed for external regulation. -Jeff On Wednesday, April 22, 2020, 12:14:22 PM PDT, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: At 12:52 AM 4/22/2020, you wrote: --> AeroElectric-List messageposted by: "Dan Fritz" So I just reviewed the Kitplanes article and it got me thinking of apotenti ally simpler solution. Please tell me if I'm crazy, but why notjust replace the screw in the left brush mount with a non-conductivescrew and insert fi ber washers to insulate the brush mount from theB-lead.=C2- Would this th en effectively separate the field from theb-lead and make the field to the internal regulator fully controllableusing the already installed IGN connec tion?=C2- What am Imissing? =C2- I'm not intimately familiar with the =C2- brush-holder configuration . . . it's =C2- been some years since I put my hands =C2- on a disassembled ND. Your suggestion =C2- appears to have merit but I would have =C2- concerns about the electrical integrity =C2- of a made-up joint held with a plastic =C2- screw. =C2- Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:00:30 PM PST US From: Kent or Jackie Ashton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control Heres another way to mod the alternator, FWIW. It involves desoldering one of the brush wires and sleeving a replacement wire with shrink wrap where it goes through the brush hole in the back of the brushholder. That serves the same purpose as the insulated screw which isolates that side of the brush. The brush holders are cheap so you can experiment. https://www.canardzone.com/forums/topic/18661-kents-long-ez-project/page/11/?tab=comments#comment-61828 -Kent > On Apr 22, 2020, at 2:57 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 12:52 AM 4/22/2020, you wrote: >> >> So I just reviewed the Kitplanes article and it got me thinking of a potentially simpler solution. Please tell me if I'm crazy, but why not just replace the screw in the left brush mount with a non-conductive screw and insert fiber washers to insulate the brush mount from the B-lead. Would this then effectively separate the field from the b-lead and make the field to the internal regulator fully controllable using the already installed IGN connection? What am I missing? > > I'm not intimately familiar with the > brush-holder configuration . . . it's > been some years since I put my hands > on a disassembled ND. Your suggestion > appears to have merit but I would have > concerns about the electrical integrity > of a made-up joint held with a plastic > screw. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:34 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: OV B-lead Relay From: Finn Lassen On 4/22/2020 1:54 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Why any breaker at all? Indeed, with just a fusible link between battery and engine fuse block, why a switch-breaker? The only answer I can come up with: convenience. Powered by the engine bus are: Engine controller A Engine Controller B (yes, redundant controllers) Primary fuel pump Backup fuel pump Primary fuel injectors Secondary fuel injectors (fuel injection is staged, at certain MAP the second set of injectors are used too) Leading ignition coils Trailing ignition coils (13B has two spark plugs per rotor) Engine monitor (strictly speaking not needed for engine to keep running) O2 sensor (strictly speaking not needed for engine to keep running) Left to right tank transfer pump (strictly speaking not needed for engine to keep running) Starter relay (strictly speaking not needed for engine to keep running) Put the last four items on the engine bus "because they are engine related". After normal flight I will have to shut off 9 to10 switches rather than just one to ensure that engine bus does not drain battery. Separate switches for A & B controllers are not mentioned by the manufacturer. He recommends just a switch/breaker directly to battery feeding controllers and monitor. But for reason mentioned earlier, I now prefer fuses and like the ability to disconnect a misbehaving controller. (There is an A/B switch, so really would be for the rare situation where voltage regulator in one controller draws high current without blowing its fuse.) Could have one switch, but then I would want inline fuses after the switch. Regarding diodes feeding engine bus, from the EC3 manual: "Also note that the use of main battery power contactors and power distribution devices incorporating isolation diodes for backup battery connections are not recommended for alternative engine installations." I can only guess the reason is that a diode will prevent the battery to act as a very effective noise filter. Thank you Bob for all you do and your advice. Finn ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:24 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: OV B-lead Relay At 05:17 PM 4/22/2020, you wrote: >On 4/22/2020 1:54 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>=EF=BDWhy any breaker at all? > >Indeed, with just a fusible link between battery >and engine fuse block, why a switch-breaker? > >The only answer I can come up with: convenience. The Engine Bus is part of your power distribution system. As a member of the FAT-wire family, no disconnects for the bus are called for . . . see Engine Bus in Z1010 >Powered by the engine bus are: > >Engine controller A >Engine Controller B (yes, redundant controllers) >Primary fuel pump >Backup fuel pump >Primary fuel injectors >Secondary fuel injectors (fuel injection is >staged, at certain MAP the second set of injectors are used too) >Leading ignition coils >Trailing ignition coils (13B has two spark plugs per rotor) >Engine monitor (strictly speaking not needed for engine to keep running) >O2 sensor (strictly speaking not needed for engine to keep running) >Left to right tank transfer pump (strictly >speaking not needed for engine to keep running) >Starter relay (strictly speaking not needed for engine to keep running) > >Put the last four items on the engine bus "because they are engine related". > >After normal flight I will have to shut off 9 to10 switches rather than >just one to ensure that engine bus does not drain battery. 10 switches? This sounds like a recipe for mis-selection in times of stressful ops. How will your check-list read for "In case of engine malfunction". If there is no check list included in the engine documentation, then CREATE ONE. You don't want to succumb to switch-flipitis at 8,000 feet. >Separate switches for A & B controllers are not mentioned by the manufacturer. >He recommends just a switch/breaker directly to battery feeding controllers >and monitor. but he is not a system integrator >But for reason mentioned earlier, I now prefer fuses and like the >ability to disconnect a misbehaving controller. (There is an A/B switch, >so really would be for the rare situation where voltage regulator in one >controller draws high current without blowing its fuse.) How about a two pole switch. One pole for each controller. Each protected by a fuse AT THE BUS? > Could have one switch, but then I would want inline fuses after the switch. > >Regarding diodes feeding engine bus, from the EC3 manual: >"Also note that the use of main battery power contactors and >power distribution devices incorporating isolation diodes for >backup battery connections are not recommended for alternative >engine installations." > >I can only guess the reason is that a diode will >prevent the battery to act as a very effective noise filter. Don't GUESS . . . KNOW. Call the dude up and get an explanation. BTW, batteries are not 'noise filters' at any level. >Thank you Bob for all you do and your advice. You're most welcome my friend. That's what we do here . . . Is there a .pdf installation manual for this system that I could see? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:45 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: OV B-lead Relay From: Finn Lassen On 4/22/2020 8:19 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > 10 switches? This sounds like a recipe for mis-selection > in times of stressful ops. How will your check-list read > for "In case of engine malfunction". Yes, one definitely needs to be familiar with how the system functions. I've been flying my RV-3B with basically the same system for 100s of hours. I am developing checklists, but will be no substitute for knowing how the system works when it comes to troubleshooting. Example of run-up procedure (to test that backup pump, both controllers, all ignition coils and injectors work): Turn on backup fuel pump, fuel pressure should rise a bit, turn back off. RPM to 3,600, adjust mixture as needed. Turn off primary injectors, note RPM drop, turn back on. Turn off secondary injectors, note RPM drop, turn back on. Select controller B. Disable leading coils ( (On)-Off-(On) switch), note RPM drop. Disable trailing coils (same (On)-Off-(On) switch), note RPM drop. Select controller A. RPM to idle. (The two switches powering the leading and trailing coil sets are purely for troubleshooting and to turn off power to the coils. It could be just one switch, but then would want in-line fuses after the switch.) I can understand how so many switches can appear confusing, but in practice it becomes second nature. "How about a two pole switch. One pole for each controller. Each protected by a fuse AT THE BUS?" Nope, controllers are designed to normally both be powered on. For example, there is an option to copy tuning parameters from A to B (should not be done in the air). "Is there a .pdf installation manual for this system that I could see?" Emailed you the manual. Doesn't really belong on this list, even though everything is now open source after Tracy retired. Finn ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:28 PM PST US From: Finn Lassen Subject: AeroElectric-List: Minimum wire size in aircraft I've been told that the minimum wire size allowed in an aircraft is 22 AWG. Why? A LED position light in the tail pulling less than 0.5A would have less than 0.3V drop over a 17 foot run. Is it a mechanical issue? Doesn't make any sense to me. Finn ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:03 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Minimum wire size in aircraft From: "dglaeser" Who is it that told you that? Nobody told the Ray Allen trim folks about that rule . They use 26 AWG for their wiring. They are a pain for making connections, so most folks prefer using 22AWG or larger for ease of use, but smaller wires are obviously allowed. -------- Dennis Glaeser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495973#495973 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:25 PM PST US From: A R Goldman Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control Kent, Thank you for your description and photos of your conversion It may be my aging eyes but the text in the photos is impossible to read. The device is in perfect focus indicating a possible depth of field problem. If you are using a cell phone focus on the tags. In any case more light will create a greater depth of field and get everything in focus Thanks again Rich Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 22, 2020, at 2:55 PM, Kent or Jackie Ashton wrote: > > > Heres another way to mod the alternator, FWIW. It involves desoldering one of the brush wires and sleeving a replacement wire with shrink wrap where it goes through the brush hole in the back of the brushholder. That serves the same purpose as the insulated screw which isolates that side of the brush. The brush holders are cheap so you can experiment. > https://www.canardzone.com/forums/topic/18661-kents-long-ez-project/page/11/?tab=comments#comment-61828 > -Kent > >> On Apr 22, 2020, at 2:57 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> At 12:52 AM 4/22/2020, you wrote: >>> >>> So I just reviewed the Kitplanes article and it got me thinking of a potentially simpler solution. Please tell me if I'm crazy, but why not just replace the screw in the left brush mount with a non-conductive screw and insert fiber washers to insulate the brush mount from the B-lead. Would this then effectively separate the field from the b-lead and make the field to the internal regulator fully controllable using the already installed IGN connection? What am I missing? >> >> I'm not intimately familiar with the >> brush-holder configuration . . . it's >> been some years since I put my hands >> on a disassembled ND. Your suggestion >> appears to have merit but I would have >> concerns about the electrical integrity >> of a made-up joint held with a plastic >> screw. >> >> >> Bob . . . >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:25:02 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control From: "Dan Fritz" Hello All, I got some non-conductive glass-filled nylon screws (m4 x 10) from McMaster Carr today to test my proposed alternator mod. Photos of my mod are attached below. The mod was extremely simple, just remove the brush holder, loosen the three regulator mount screws, slip a fiber washer between the regulator mount and B-Lead connection, drop the brush holder back in place and replace one of the two screws with the glass-filled nylon one. The whole operation took about 10 minutes to do the first time (probably about 3 minutes after that). The field terminal is now isolated from the B-lead and appears to work correctly. I wasn't able to spin the alternator up enough on the bench to ensure it still charges correctly and stops charging with removal of the field voltage. I'll have to try that once the engine is running or I find a better bench setup. Glass filled nylon screws appear to have a tensile strength of 25 ksi and is supposed to be good to 300 degrees F. I plan to disassemble and inspect after about 10 hours of engine run time to see how the screw is faring. If it looks like the screw won't survive, I'll buy a $20 ceramic screw to replace it. I'll let the group know if this is successful once I can get a solid test of the alternator accomplished. If so, the mod is dead simple and will give full control of the regulator, allowing the traditional crowbar OVP to work as designed. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495977#495977 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/alternator_mod_142.pdf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.