Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:06 AM - Battery recharge technique (Ron Burnett)
2. 11:05 AM - Re: Battery recharge technique (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 11:45 AM - Super-whizzy energy management systems (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 12:27 PM - Contact Cleaning? (Michael Wynn)
5. 12:47 PM - Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems (Charlie England)
6. 01:00 PM - Locking toggle switch (jdpnm)
7. 02:17 PM - Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 03:09 PM - Logo (John M Tipton)
9. 04:49 PM - Re: Battery recharge technique (Neal George)
10. 05:30 PM - Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems (user9253)
11. 06:34 PM - Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems (johnbright)
12. 06:40 PM - Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems (Charles Kuss)
13. 06:56 PM - Re: Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems (Ken Ryan)
14. 07:48 PM - Re: Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems (Gilles Thesee)
15. 09:11 PM - Re: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring (MFleming)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Battery recharge technique |
My RV6A had dual batteries and the Bus Manager system from Protek and a dual EFII
ignition system.
What is the proper order (technique) for hooking a charger up. The charger has
three settings the last being AGM for my Oddessy PC680s. Such as when to plug
charger into the electric, etc.
Also, in a dual system can I charge both batteries by hookup to the alternator
fat wire and would I still use AGM?
Thanks,
Ron Burnett
May you have the Lord's blessings today!
Sent from my iPad
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Battery recharge technique |
At 11:01 AM 4/28/2020, you wrote:
>
>My RV6A had dual batteries and the Bus Manager system from Protek
>and a dual EFII ignition system.
>
>What is the proper order (technique) for hooking a charger up.
How big a charger is this? i.e. what is the
charge current? Do I presume correctly that
the charger has a 'maintenance' mode and
can be left connected indefinitely?
What is your thinking for using a 'charger'
as opposed to simple battery maintainers?
The artfully maintained AGM battery has a very
low self-discharge rated. This means that if
you fly at least once every 30 days, the
battery(ies) will be up and ready for
every flight. For long term storage like
over the winter, it's useful to use a
small battery maintainer . . . a small
almost-a-charger that offsets the tiny
self-discharge currents and keeps the
battery topped off.
The only time you need a CHARGER is when
the battery has been inadvertently depleted and
requires substantial replenishment. In this case,
having a charge rate of 3, 6, or even 10A
will get the battery back on its feet.
>The charger has three settings the last being AGM for my
>Oddessy PC680s. Such as when to plug charger into the electric, etc.
>
>Also, in a dual system can I charge both batteries by hookup to the
>alternator fat wire and would I still use AGM?
I'm assuming you are expecting the charger to emulated
a running alternator. To make this work, your system
would have to be powered up with both battery
contactors closed.
Charging in-situ batteries from outside
the aircraft is best managed by a charging
or 'ground maintenance' connector. Preferably
one for each battery. Of course, these
same connectors would provide a means
for applying battery maintainers for
long term storage.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Super-whizzy energy management systems |
I just became aware of an incident involving
complete loss of power from an electrically
dependent engine that occurred some years ago.
The accident airplane had a lot in common
with the narrative we have going with Ron.
I've posted a copy of a narrative at
https://tinyurl.com/y7xksy6v
While this narrative has a lot more data
than most 'dark-n-scarry-nite' stories
in the journals, it is still short of
critical information necessary to
ferret out root cause.
Fortunately, the pilot walked away. I'll
suggest this is a classic example of a system
that was too complex, would not yield to
a critical FMEA and may have suffered some
deficiencies in craftsmanship.
I'll let you guys read this thing first and
come up with questions one might ask if
you were on an accident investigation team.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Contact Cleaning? |
Hi folks,
I am restoring a 1977 Pitts S1-S.The project has taken about three years.
=C2- For that time, the radios have been in a box.=C2- I re-installed t
hem yesterday.=C2- The transponder works fine, the com radio is a King KY
97A.=C2- After putting it back in its slot, the reception is great but it
won't transmit.=C2- I check the PTT switch and it is working normally.
=C2- the TX light does not come on so I suspect the radio is not receivin
g the instruction to transmit.=C2- Seems most likely that where the radio
slides into the rack that the one that triggers transmit is not making pro
per contact.
So, my question is, what is the best way to clean the contacts?=C2- I hav
e radioshack contact cleaner spray that I thought I would start with.=C2-
Is there some mechanical way to clean them?=C2- Q-tips? white scotchguar
d? Fine file?=C2- Removing the whole stack to get to that part is going t
o be a major PITA so would like to try to get the contacts cleaned without
major disassembly.=C2-=C2-
I would much appreciate any advice
Regards,
Michael WynnLivermore, CA
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems |
On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 1:50 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> I just became aware of an incident involving
> complete loss of power from an electrically
> dependent engine that occurred some years ago.
>
> The accident airplane had a lot in common
> with the narrative we have going with Ron.
>
> I've posted a copy of a narrative at
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y7xksy6v
>
>
> [snipped]
>
> I'll let you guys read this thing first and
> come up with questions one might ask if
> you were on an accident investigation team.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> My 1st question is whether that alternator ground wire was the only
connection between the engine and the airframe, as seems likely.
Charlie
Message 6
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| Subject: | Locking toggle switch |
Locking toggle switch 4 sale. NEW Honeywell / Microswitch MS27408-4A this is 2
Pole with 3 locking positions. Screw terminals. I ended up with one extra. Hope
this helps someone.
Toggle must be Pulled out to change switch. Prevents accidental turning off the
battery contactor. This is a 2-10 type switch as used in Bobs Z101 with Off-Bat-Alt
positions. SteinAir gets $72 + SH. Asking $40 shipped cont. USA.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496092#496092
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems |
>
>My 1st question is whether that alternator ground wire was the only
>connection between the engine and the airframe, as seems likely.
>
>Charlie
Good one. Let's put that one on the table.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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Hi Bob
Is this any help:
Regards
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496095#496095
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/thumbnail_aeroelectric_connection_709.png
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Battery recharge technique |
Gentlemen =93
I would not presume to disagree with Bob on things electric.
Just a data point from my experience.
The CherokeeJet has a Concorde behind the rear baggage bulkhead (can=99t re
member if it=99s 25- or 35-AHr).=C2- It often sits neglected for months at a t
ime, with little more than a touch on the wingtip and a regretfully muttered
=9Cmaybe tomorrow=9D =C2-It gets no electrical support between flights
(I think I plugged it up once after an extended session of fiddling with the
avionics (Schumacher 1562)). =C2-I don=99t remember when the current battery
was mounted, but it has been many years.=C2- On those rare occasions that I do
get to drag it out, the battery spins the engine happily, and has no troubl
e grunting the initial compression strokes. =C2-
On the other hand, I have killed several PC680s while not finishing my RV-7
project =93 some hooked to the 1562, others not.
My experience implies some of us worry way too much.=C2-
Neal
=========
The artfully maintained AGM battery has a very
low self-discharge rated. This means that if
you fly at least once every 30 days, the
battery(ies) will be up and ready for
every flight. For long term storage like
over the winter, it's useful to use a
small battery maintainer . . . a small
almost-a-charger that offsets the tiny
self-discharge currents and keeps the
battery topped off.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems |
It seems that the engine quit because the electrical system voltage was too
high which damaged critical engine components, despite what the
manufacturer of the fuel injection and ignition systems stated.
Factors that led to the high voltage include a poorly crimped cable, omission
of an alternator on-off switch, lack of alternator over-voltage protection, and
batteries that stop accepting charging current in case of high voltage, which
allowed the voltage to climb even higher.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496100#496100
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems |
Did the alternator's integral regulator have overvoltage protection? Did it trip?
What is it's trip voltage?
Were there any blown fuses or tripped circuit breakers supplying power to the ECUs
or coilpacks?
What in the ignition system failed? ECUs? Coilpacks? Were they bench tested post
accident? How do we know the ignitions systems failed?
What is the sample rate of the EMS? Could it miss a short spike in voltage that
would destroy the ECU or coilpacks?
Is it possible for ECU programming to be affected by voltage transients such as
from the loose alternator crimp?
Were there any other bad connections in the aircraft besides the alternator ground
wire?
Is there a complete electrial power schematic for the aircraft? Does it match the
implementation?
Was the alternator ground wire the only ground for the engine? Did the injectors
or coilpacks require the engine to be grounded for them to receive power?
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496101#496101
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems |
The pilot had an overcharge condition. Did his system have an over voltage
warning system? The pilot's failure to install a breaker/switch for the al
ternator, left him with no way to disconnect the alternator. No other provi
sions are provided in his design to deal with an over voltage event. Accord
ing to the supplied schematic, that would be his only option for protecting
the batteries and making a safe continuation of the flight. Due to the des
ign of the "Bus Manager" a [open circuit] failure of the internal diodes co
uld leave the emergency power switch all but useless. Further, the pilot's
choice of two LiFe batteries, left him with less of an electrical "sponge"
to absorb the over voltage event, compared to using at least 1 flooded cell
or AGM battery.
To me, both the pilot and the company who supplied the "bus manager" failed
at making a safe system. The changes the pilot made, surely fall under the
"major change" category. That would have required the pilot to make 5 hour
s of test flights in the vicinity of his home airport. Had this been done,
most likely, he would have made it back to the runway safely.
Charlie Kuss
On Tuesday, 28 April 2020, 17:05:14 GMT-4, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nu
ckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
ls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
I just became aware of an incident involving
complete loss of power from an electrically
dependent engine that occurred some years ago.
The accident airplane had a lot in common
with the narrative we have going with Ron.
I've posted a copy of a narrative at
https://tinyurl.com/y7xksy6v
While this narrative has a lot more data
than most 'dark-n-scarry-nite' stories
in the journals, it is still short of
critical information necessary to
ferret out root cause.
Fortunately, the pilot walked away. I'll
suggest this is a classic example of a system
that was too complex, would not yield to
a critical FMEA and may have suffered some
deficiencies in craftsmanship.
I'll let you guys read this thing first and
come up with questions one might ask if
you were on an accident investigation team.
=C2- Bob . . .
-
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems |
16.3 volts just does not seem very high. It is hard to accept that 16.3
volts would fry these products, which seem to come from reputable vendors
(SDS and FlyEFII).
On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 4:50 PM user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It seems that the engine quit because the electrical system voltage was too
> high which damaged critical engine components, despite what the
> manufacturer of the fuel injection and ignition systems stated.
> Factors that led to the high voltage include a poorly crimped cable,
> omission
> of an alternator on-off switch, lack of alternator over-voltage
> protection, and
> batteries that stop accepting charging current in case of high voltage,
> which
> allowed the voltage to climb even higher.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496100#496100
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems |
Le 29/04/2020 03:30, johnbright a crit:
>
> Is there a complete electrial power schematic for the aircraft? Does it match
the implementation?
>
> Was the alternator ground wire the only ground for the engine? Did the injectors
or coilpacks require the engine to be grounded for them to receive power?
>
Hi all,
Found some schematic and installation instructions here :
https://www.flyefii.com/media/Bus_Manager_Installation_Instructions.pdf
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring |
After looking over Z101, this is my first try at an architecture that would fit
my mission.
Criticism will be taken as constructive, no offense taken.
Looking into my avionics suite, the Garmin GAD 27 controller should prevent brown
outs so I eliminated the BO option.
The idea of having a clearance delivery bus to upload flight plans and well, get
a clearance, really appealed to me so it's included. The strobes are on that
bus so I would not walk away from the aircraft with the clearance delivery bus
still energized.
Speaking to B&C today about their standby alternator had me include their standby
regulator. The wiring of it is per their drawings. B&C says the standby alternator
wired this way would run in parallel with the main alternator and would
be excited and pick up the load when the main bus voltage fell below a predefined
level and would need no pilot input. Im not sure why they show a switch
but I included it.
My plans are to have one Pmag or a SureFly mag replacement and a traditional mag,
so that setup is included.
Im sure I missed something and am looking forward to learning even more than I
already have.
--------
Michael Fleming
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496105#496105
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/z101_n526rm_bandc_reg_467.jpg
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