Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:41 AM - Re: Re: Questions about Architecture Design (Eric Del)
2. 09:23 AM - Re: Re: DAS system (Eric Page)
3. 10:35 AM - Garmin GAD 27 Brown-Out Booster (johnbright)
4. 10:40 AM - Re: Re: DAS system (Steve Williams)
5. 06:03 PM - Re: Re: DAS system (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 06:52 PM - Looking for help finalysing my Cozy's electrical system (Zoom2136)
7. 08:05 PM - Re: Re: Z101 has been released under Rev A (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 09:42 PM - Re: Looking for help finalysing my Cozy's electrical system (johnbright)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Questions about Architecture Design |
Hi all,
I'm new here trying to post on the forum, but cannot. I've lost my password
and cannot get the system to send me a new one. It does tell me that an em
ail was sent to my email address, but nothing. I've checked my spam folder
but nothing either.=C2-
Also tried sending my electric diagram for my Cozy directly to aeroelectric
-list@matronics.com for your comments, but that email also did not go throu
gh.
Hope this one does. As I would greatly appreciate your help in building a s
afe airplane.
Thanks
Eric DMontr=C3=A9al, Canada
On Tuesday, May 26, 2020, 05:35:00 a.m. EDT, user9253 <fransew@gmail.co
m> wrote:
The main power bus is one of the most reliable things on an airplane.=C2-
It is
connected to 2 power sources, a battery and an alternator.=C2- There are
no
fuses to blow in the main power feeder.=C2- An avionics bus has a switch
that
can fail.=C2- And if it is protected by a fuse, that is one more unnecess
ary
failure point.=C2- It is a bad idea to have two fuses in series.=C2- If
a load fuse
blows, the bus fuse could also blow and disable all avionics.=C2- Elimina
te the
avionics bus.=C2- Yeah, I know you are concerned about voltage spikes dur
ing
engine start.=C2- But there is no such thing.=C2- Who are you going to
believe,
flight instructors and mechanics who do not even own an oscilloscope and
base their advice on 1950 technology, or an electrical engineer (Bob) who
has worked for major aircraft companies and has tested starter motors in
a laboratory and proved that there are no voltage spikes?=C2- I do not ha
ve
an avionics bus.=C2- My airplane has been started hundreds of times with
all
avionics turned on.=C2- No avionics have failed.=C2- Yes, some do reboo
t from
voltage sag which is annoying.=C2- Brownout protection can be installed i
f
desired.=C2- Give me the name of a modern avionics manual and page
number that states that their product must be powered off during engine
start. There are none.=C2- Make your airplane safer, and less complicated
by
not having an avionics bus.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496516#496516
-
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 2
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> On May 31, 2020, at 03:36, Steve Williams <sbw@sbw.org> wrote:
> So let me ask: Is there a device that can be applied more directly? The i
deal device would:
>
> - Work with a supply voltage of 3.3V, like the Feathers, and output 0-3.3V
. (The Feather ADCs can use the 3.3V supply voltage as the reference or an i
nternal 0.6V reference and 1/6 divider to measure 3.6V.)
Here are 17 through-hole devices similar to the ones Bob suggested, from thr
ee manufacturers, all of which will operate at 3.3V:
https://preview.tinyurl.com/y7eo66u9
Pay particular attention to the LEM parts. You can play with their referenc
e voltage to achieve current measurements well above their banner specs, and
they have a hole to allow passing a wire through their core.
There are also 3.3V versions of the Allegro parts that I suggested a few day
s ago:
https://preview.tinyurl.com/y8z5am4t
> - Or require a 5V supply voltage, but also a configurable full scale volta
ge.
Any of the 5V parts could be used by simply putting their output through a r
esistor divider that scales it to a maximum of 3.3V (i.e. 13.7k over 26.7k).
You can calibrate readings in your code. No op-amps required.
> - And configurable to produce 0V output at 0A current.
Most (all?) of the unidirectional parts will meet this spec. The bidirectio
nal parts have to use Vcc/2 as their zero-current point in order to measure c
urrent in both directions.
Eric
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| Subject: | Garmin GAD 27 Brown-Out Booster |
If you are planning on Garmin.
For those who may not be aware... Garmin's GAD 27 (Flaps/Lights/Trim Controller)
incorporates a Brown-Out Booster. They call it Voltage Stabilizer and it will
deliver up to 3.5A at 12V if you feed it 5V or above.
"Voltage Stabilizer - Essential avionics receive stable power during engine start
without the need for a back-up battery when integrating the GAD 27 adapter..."
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496583#496583
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Wow, thanks again Eric. It'll take me some time to absorb that.
Looking at your links, I learned a bit better how to use Digikey's web
site to narrow down the selection. Very helpful.
On 5/31/2020 9:19 AM, Eric Page wrote:
>> On May 31, 2020, at 03:36, Steve Williams <sbw@sbw.org> wrote:
>> So let me ask: Is there a device that can be applied more directly?
>> The ideal device would:
>>
>> - Work with a supply voltage of 3.3V, like the Feathers, and output
>> 0-3.3V. (The Feather ADCs can use the 3.3V supply voltage as the
>> reference or an internal 0.6V reference and 1/6 divider to measure 3.6V.)
>
> Here are 17 through-hole devices similar to the ones Bob suggested, from
> three manufacturers, all of which will operate at 3.3V:
>
> https://preview.tinyurl.com/y7eo66u9
>
> Pay particular attention to the LEM parts. You can play with their
> reference voltage to achieve current measurements well above their
> banner specs, and they have a hole to allow passing a wire through their
> core.
>
> There are also 3.3V versions of the Allegro parts that I suggested a few
> days ago:
>
>
> https://preview.tinyurl.com/y8z5am4t
>
>
>> - Or require a 5V supply voltage, but also a configurable full scale
>> voltage.
>
> Any of the 5V parts could be used by simply putting their output through
> a resistor divider that scales it to a maximum of 3.3V (i.e. 13.7k over
> 26.7k). You can calibrate readings in your code. No op-amps required.
>
>
>> - And configurable to produce 0V output at 0A current.
>
> Most (all?) of the unidirectional parts will meet this spec. The
> bidirectional parts have to use Vcc/2 as their zero-current point in
> order to measure current in both directions.
>
> Eric
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At 12:37 PM 5/31/2020, you wrote:
>
>Wow, thanks again Eric. It'll take me some time to absorb that.
Thanks from me too . . . just what I was thinking . . .
>Looking at your links, I learned a bit better how to use Digikey's
>web site to narrow down the selection. Very helpful.
Of all the supplier websites I consult,
Digikey is head and shoulders above the
rest. I think Menards, Home Depot and
Lowes are all tied for the worst!
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Looking for help finalysing my Cozy's electrical system |
Hi,
Ive been following many of the discussions here for the last year or so, while
planning the rewiring of my Cozy Mk3. Of particular interest to me was the discussion
about electrically dependent engines. Because I purchased such a EFI and
EI system (EFIIs System 32), Ive attempted to design an electrical system that
I think would allow for the safe operation of such an aircraft, but Im no
electrical engineer so I may be going down the I dont know that this thing can
kill me road with a big grin on my face.
Just so you know, this aircraft will operate in Quebec, Canada, where you can go
for more than an hour before reaching the midpoint between airports with nothing
to see along the way but lakes and forest. So redundancy is very important,
for my peace of mind.
FYI, Ive already purchased the following items for my Cozy:
Full EFII System 32 (electronic fuel injection & dual ignition)
VPX PRO solid-state breaker box (mostly for non-engine related items)
GRT Avionics EIS R66 engine monitor
GRT Avionic Hxr EFIS
B&C BC460-H 60 amp alternator (main)
B&C BC410-H 20-40 amp alternator (aux)
B&C BCS206 Lycoming starter
B&C LR-3C regulator (x2)
I have a lot of other stuff (electric nose gear, electric air brakes, LED nav,
taxi & landing lights, radios, transponder, GPS, etc.), but the aforementioned
are the primary systems for which I would greatly appreciate your help. The list
of GRT stuff is just to let you know what I have to monitor the system.
OK, so a quick description.
My system is based on the Z-14 diagram.
My objective was to have 2 totally independent power paths for the engine-related
components and to share the loads and backup power for avionics and other electrical
stuff between the MAIN and AUX alternators and batteries, which could
be seen more as SYST 1 and SYST 2, I guess.
System back bone (my v1.04 drawing):
1. Switched side of MAIN Contactor (B&C S701-1) feeds the VPX which in turn feeds
non-engine related electro gizmos (EFIS, EIS, radios, etc.).
2. Switched side of AUX Contactor (B&C S701-1) feeds the AUX BUS that backs up
some of the circuits powered through the VPX and powers some backup electrical
stuff (e.g.: GRT EFIS on MAIN/AUX, AVMAPS EFIS on AUX).
3. MAIN BATTERY feeds the engine bus #1 (EB1) via a 50A (final value TBD) breaker
and SPST switch
4. AUX BATTERY feeds the engine bus #2 (EB2) via a 50A (final value TBD) breaker
and SPST switch
5. CROSSFEED Contactor (B&C S701-2) can be closed if one alternator fails (or for
a cold start) as the MAIN, AUX and ENGINE BUSSES subsystem should be 100% independent
(except for backup circuits). A green LED indicates if CROSSFEED if
closed
6. VPX will monitor both battery voltage.
Engine, ignition and fuel delivery subsystems (v2.10 drawing):
Composed of 2 independent engine bus (EB1 & EB2), each powering a subset of components
that will keep the engine running on its own.
a. EB1 bus powers:
i. the TOP COIL
ii. Right (#1) ECU
iii. Main (#1) fuel pump
iv. IF either [ECU #1] or [ECU #1 and #2] is/are ON, EB1 powers the
INJECTOR POWER MODULE
b. EB2 bus powers:
i. The BOTTOM COIL
ii. Left (#2) ECU
iii. Aux (#2) fuel pump
iv. IF ECU #1 is OFF, EB2 powers the INJECTOR POWER MODULE
* FYI, the injector duty can be handled by either ECU, but only one at any time.
Ive followed EFII System 32 power wiring schematics (see attached file) logic and
breakers/fuses value recommendations, but I will not be using its Bus Manager.
My ECU and INJECTOR power and control setup
Ive tried to keep the system easy to operate, e.g., power EB1 via SPST switch,
select ECU 1 via an Aircraft Spruce ACS-510-5 start key, and press the start button.
The engine should start and keep running independent of if the alternator(s)
are ON or OFF. The same can be done with EB2. Also using the key switch
BOTH position with EB1 & EB2 powered would turn ON both ECUs. The CROSSFEED contactor
can also be closed to pair the batteries for a cold start, and the system
should have no issue with it.
My objective was to minimize the number of switches while still being able to isolate
stuff if something went wrong. My thinking is that having 2 independent
engine buses that can be switched off to take offline components that form a
subsystem seems to fit this criterion.
Using 4 relays: 2 for the coils, 1 for the injector power module and 1 as a way
of switching ECU, it is possible to switch automatically between 3 conditions
using an ACS ACS-510-5 starter key switch (without the start option):
A. EB1 ON only
ECU #1 (ON) / ECU #2 (OFF), TOP COIL (ON) / BOTTOM COIL (OFF) & Injectors duty
controlled by the ECU #1. Fuel pumps activated via a DPDT switch are MAIN (ON),
AUX (OFF).
B. EB2 ON only
ECU #2 (ON) / ECU #1 (OFF), BOTTOM COIL (ON) / TOP COIL (OFF) & Injector duty controlled
by the ECU #2. Fuel pumps activated via a DPDT switch are MAIN (OFF),
AUX (ON).
C. EB1 and EB2 ON
Both ECU (ON), both COILS (ON) & Injectors duty controlled by the ECU #1. Fuel
pumps activated via a DPDT switch are MAIN (ON), AUX (AUTO (using a fuel pressure
switch)).
See attached files for color coded diagrams.
CONDITION A (requires EB1 SPST switch (ON))
Power = green, Ground = Aqua blue. Red slashes = COLD (OFF)
Selecting ECU #1 with the start key causes:
i) The grounding of GRD BLOC 2, which in turn causes:
a. If EB2 is ON, the BOTTOM COIL to shut OFF (its normally open (pin 87a) coil
select relay is closed (pin 87));
b. ECU #2 P-LEAD is grounded, shutting OFF ECU #2 if EB2 is ON.
ii) GRD BLOC 1 is NOT grounded, meaning:
a. ECU #1 is ON (no grounded P-LEAD) and powered by EB1;
b. ECU #1 is handling the injector duty (its INJECTOR ENABLE wire is not grounded)
and the injector power module is powered by EB1 through a closed (pin 87)
injector auto fail over relay (this normally open (pin 87a) relay automatically
switch the injector power module power source from EB1 to EB2, if EB1 fail or
is OFF);
c. ECU #2 INJECTOR ENABLE wire grounded through the open (pin 87a) normally open
(pin 87a) injector select relay, causing ECU #2 to stop handling the duty of
the injectors; and
d. TOP COIL normally open (pin 87a) coil select relay remains open (pin 87a), and
power is supplied to the TOP COIL (ON) from EB1.
CONDITION B (requires EB2 SPST switch (ON))
Power = green, Ground = Aqua blue. Red slashes = COLD (OFF)
Selecting ECU #2 with the start key causes:
i) The grounding of GRD BLOC 1, which in turn causes:
a. ECU #1 is OFF (its P-LEAD grounded) if EB1 is ON;
b. The normally open (pin 87a) injector select relay coil is powered, and it closes
(pin 87) the relay. ECU #1s INJECTOR ENABLE wire is grounded causing ECU
#1 to cease handling injector duty and ECU #2 to take over the injector duty;
c. If EB1 is ON, the TOP COIL normally open (pin 87a) coil select relay coil is
powered, and it closes (pin 87), shutting OFF the TOP COIL.
iii) GRD BLOC 2 is NOT grounded, meaning:
a. ECU #2 is ON, as its P-LEAD is NOT grounded.
b. ECU #2 INJECTOR ENABLE wire is NOT grounded, so ECU #2 is handling the injector
duty.
c. The BOTTOM COIL normally open (pin 87a) coil select relay remains open (pin
87a) switching ON the BOTTOM COIL; and
CONDITION C (power to EB1 and EB2 SPST switches (ON))
Power = green, Ground = Aqua blue. Red slashes = COLD (OFF)
Selecting both ECU with the start key causes:
ii) GRD BLOC 1 is NOT grounded, meaning:
a. ECU #1 is ON (no grounded P-LEAD) powered by EB1;
b. ECU #1 is handling the injector duty (its INJECTOR ENABLE wire is not grounded)
and the injector power module is powered by EB1 through a closed (pin 87)
injector auto fail over relay;
c. ECU #2 INJECTOR ENABLE wire grounded through the open (87a pin) normally open
(pin 87a) injector select relay, causing this ECU to stop handling the duty
of the injectors; and
d. TOP COIL normally open (pin 87a) coil select relay remains open (pin 87a), and
power is supplied to the TOP COIL (ON) from EB1.
iv) GRD BLOC 2 is NOT grounded, meaning:
d. ECU #2 is ON, as its P-LEAD is NOT grounded.
e. ECU #2 INJECTOR ENABLE wire is grounded through the open (pin 87a) normally
open (pin 87a) injector select relay, so ECU #1 is handling the injector duty
(see point C above).
f. The BOTTOM COIL normally open (pin 87a) coil select relay remains open (pin
87a) switching ON the BOTTOM COIL; and
Thank you for your time,
One more thing, FYI, I have a lot of 18 AWG wire, so if some wire seems to be oversized
to 18 AWG, it is just that I figure that I can live with the added weight,
and use what I have.
Thanks again,
Eric
--------
Eric D
Cozy IIIx C-GEDZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496586#496586
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/effi_syst_32_suggested_electrical_diagram_129.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/condition_c__fuel_pumps_main_on_aux_auto_206.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/condition_b__fuel_pumps_main_off_aux_on_846.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/condition_a__fuel_pumps_main_on_aux_off_110.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/condition_c__eb1_on_eb2on_ecu_1_on_ecu_2on_901.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/condition_b__eb1_off_eb2on_ecu_1_off_ecu_2on_173.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/condition_a__eb1_on_eb2off_ecu_1_on_ecu_2off_129.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/c_gedz_fuel_ignition_oil_v210_169.pdf
http://forums.matronics.com//files/c_gedz_fuel_ignition_oil_v100_131.pdf
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: re: Z101 has been released under Rev A (Robert |
L. Nuckolls, III)
At 05:14 PM 5/28/2020, you wrote:
>Quick question on this diagram:=C2 Near the upper
>left, there is a feed coming off of the battery
>bus that is labeled for a 30A fused feed to
>"BOBUS". Is that correct? I see two feeds coming
>into to the brownout / CD bus: 1 from the diode
>bridge that feeds the engine bus, and one
>(switched) directly from the battery side of the battery contactor.=C2
>
>Thanks!=C2
Good eye . . . that's an artifact of
an earlier iteration. I've continued to
massage the concepts illustrated in the
new z-figure.
New iteration will be posted soon. Thanks
for checking!
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: Looking for help finalysing my Cozy's electrical |
system
Single points of failure:
All four injectors are powered by one reley, wire, and fuse link.
Both pumps are powered thru the same switch.
Questions:
The injectors have fuse links in the harness. Are they sized so they won't pop
the one fuse link that feeds all four injectors?
What happens if both injector enable inputs are un-grounded?
Why are there relays for removing power from the coils?
What is the EFII Syst 32 Inj Pwr Module? I would have thought each ECU box has
open collector injector drivers inside.
Will the automatic aux pump feature result in a relaxation oscillator? (No pressure,
pump on... now we have pressure, pump off, repeat.)
Where are the batteries located?
Thoughts/IMO:
It would be simpler to have separate toggle switches for left and right coil "P-Leads".
It wouild be simpler to have an SPDT switch for injector enable grounds like EFII
illustrates but what is the effect if the ground is lost to both injector enables?
I don't know how to have faith in Bus Manager (I know you mentioned you are not
using Bus Manager) or EFII in general when they show un-necessary SPOFs that
will stop the engine. Ref EFII Dwg 9 rev 5/19 that you attached.
50A is more than an engine bus requires. I am planning on dual four cylinder SDS
EFI+I on O-360 and my calculations show:
ECU 0.13A
Coilpack 1.1A at cruise
Fuel pump 5.25A at 45 PSI (Walbro GSL393)
14.5 Ohm injectors 0.32A each at cruise (32% duty cycle, 10 GPH)
I plan to put both EFI+I systems (pri and bak) on one engine bus and the current
draw is less than 20A (15A with both pumps and coils running for low altitude;
8.2A with one coil and one pump running in current conservation mode).
I'm planning on an adaptation of Z-101 which is simpler than Z-14 and IMO just
as reliable.
It would be simpler and more reliable to have separate toggle switches for the
main and aux fuel pumps and eliminate the fuel pressure switch.
The fuel pressure switch is called NO; I would think that means it is open when
there is no fuel pressure so the logic is backwards.
You mentioned dwg 1.04 but attached 1.00.
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496588#496588
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