Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:22 AM - Re: Re: Z101 with Rotax 915iS (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 05:24 AM - Re: Re: Z101 with Rotax 915iS (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 07:25 AM - With Flooded cells, at what discharge does damage start? (Steve Stearns)
4. 08:01 AM - Gerdes vs ACS key switch wiring (supik)
5. 08:48 AM - Re: Gerdes vs ACS key switch wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 08:48 AM - Re: With Flooded cells, at what discharge does damage start? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 09:21 AM - Re: Z101 with Rotax 915iS (user9253)
8. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: Z101 with Rotax 915iS (Ken Ryan)
9. 11:15 AM - Re: Z101 with Rotax 915iS (Charlie England)
10. 11:17 AM - Re: Z101 with Rotax 915iS (Charlie England)
11. 05:36 PM - Re: With Flooded cells, at what discharge does damage start? (Ernest Christley)
12. 06:26 PM - Surplus Wire (BMC_Dave)
13. 07:37 PM - Re: With Flooded cells, at what discharge does damage start? (skywagon185guy .)
14. 07:37 PM - Re: Surplus Wire (Charlie England)
15. 07:42 PM - Re: Re: Z101 with Rotax 915iS (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 11:05 PM - Re: Surplus Wire (BMC_Dave)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Z101 with Rotax 915iS |
At 07:38 PM 6/12/2020, you wrote:
>All accurate Joe. But I think there is a wrinkle. It is my
>understanding that if Gen A fails, AND the Emergency Power Switch is
>closed, THEN Gen B will operate both Engine and power the Bus. At
>least that's my understanding.
You need to start your project planning with
a load analysis: A comparison of system energy
demands with energy supplies (gen a, gen b, bat a,
etc) under the various phases of flight (taxi/t-o,
day vfr cruise, night cruise, ifr cruise, and
then decide what items will be shut off under
which failure condition).
Z101 is NOT applicable to the Rotax. That
engine's design and energy supplies are pretty
much cut in stone by the engine manufacturer.
But your need to quantify and then organize
your energy requirements is still the same.
There are examples of load analysis in
both Excel and paper forms at:
https://tinyurl.com/9rt6ymn
You first need to KNOW that there's energy
available to power up your planned suite
of electro-whizzies . . . you mentioned
pitot heat . . . do you plan to poke holes
in clouds? Each phase of flight has its
own energy budget.
The electrical section (24) of the Rotax
manual is not very clear as to what the engine's
energy needs are. I didn't find any mention
of what power (if any) is available from
the PM alternator-A under alternator-B
failure conditions. Without that kind of
information, you're not going to be able
to define the 'dual alternator' opportunities
of this engine.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Z101 with Rotax 915iS |
At 07:19 PM 6/12/2020, you wrote:
>
>The Rotax 912iS engine has two generators.
>Generator A 16 Amp is for engine only.
>Generator B 30 Amp is for aircraft electrical system.
>If generator A fails, generator B automatically takes over engine duties,
> but no longer supplies the aircraft electrical system.
>If generator B also fails, the pilot may operate a switch to
>operate the engine using aircraft battery power.
. . . if the PM alternator fails, engine
ops revert to the pad mounted alternator
leaving NO power for other needs?
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | With Flooded cells, at what discharge does damage start? |
Greetings,
This isn't a relevant question for modern aircraft but I think the
membership of this list will likely know so I hope I don't bother anyone by
posting here.
If you have a rarely used car with a traditional flooded cell lead-acid
battery and keep an eye on the battery voltage, at what voltage should it
be recharged to maintain a normal life? My old jeep has a small load while
parked so the battery slowly drains and it is neither convenient for me to
disconnect the battery nor keep a maintainer connected. If I charge it
back up with my smart charger before the (nominally 70deg f) battery
voltage drops to say, 12V will I still get full life out of the battery?
Thanks in advance,
Steve Stearns
O235 Longeze
Boulder/Longmont CO
Message 4
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| Subject: | Gerdes vs ACS key switch wiring |
I have the ACS 502 key switch and was wondering how to wire the center ground.
B&C instructions for the GERDES key switch say DO NOT connect the center GND to
any structural member in the cabin wheres the ACS instructions tell the opposite.
ACS Note C:
http://acsproducts.co/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Wiring-Diagram.jpg
GERDES:
https://bandc.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/s811-1_contactor_501-3_fig4.pdf
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496815#496815
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Gerdes vs ACS key switch wiring |
At 10:00 AM 6/13/2020, you wrote:
>
>I have the ACS 502 key switch and was wondering how to wire the center ground.
>
>B&C instructions for the GERDES key switch say DO NOT connect the
>center GND to any structural member in the cabin wheres the ACS
>instructions tell the opposite.
>
>ACS Note C:
>http://acsproducts.co/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Wiring-Diagram.jpg
>
>GERDES:
>https://bandc.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/s811-1_contactor_501-3_fig4.pdf
There is no BENEFIT for connecting to ground locally . . .
but there is RISK for damaging p-lead shields due to
starter currents flowing in a ground-loop situation.
Wire per examples in the z-figures where shields are
terminated at the mags and NO grounds are added at
the switch(es) whether a o-l-r-b-s keyswitch or
toggles.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: With Flooded cells, at what discharge does damage |
start?
At 09:09 AM 6/13/2020, you wrote:
>Greetings,
>
>This isn't a relevant question for modern
>aircraft but I think the membership of this list
>will likely know so I hope I don't bother anyone by posting here.
>
>If you have a rarely used car with a traditional
>flooded cell lead-acid battery and keep an eye
>on the battery voltage, at what voltage should
>it be recharged to maintain a normal life?=C2 My
>old jeep has a small load while parked so the
>battery slowly drains and it is neither
>convenient for me to disconnect the battery nor
>keep a maintainer connected.=C2 If I charge it
>back up with my smart charger=C2 before the
>(nominally 70deg f) battery voltage drops to
>say, 12V will I still get full life out of the battery?
that would be a good milestone for initiating
a top-off charge. You could probably let it
go lower but keeping it above 12v will improve
longevity.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Z101 with Rotax 915iS |
Both Generator A and generator B are permanent magnet type integrated with the
engine. The magnets are embedded in the flywheel. Other than the magnets, there
are no moving parts. The two generators are just two stationary sets of coils.
Generator A is for engine only. If "A" fails, Generator B will automatically
take over engine duties and automatically disconnect from the aircraft
electrical system. However as pointed out in previous posts, the pilot can cheat
and flip the backup switch which will reconnect generator B to the aircraft
electrical system. Doing that could jeopardize electrical power that is available
to the engine.
According to above posts, an optional external alternator is available for $2000.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496818#496818
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Z101 with Rotax 915iS |
Thanks for confirming Joe, and clarifying that "cheating" opens up the risk
of starving the engine of necessary electrical power. While $2k for the
THIRD approved (but not certified) alternator is tough to swallow, it's
peanuts compared to the $37k price of the engine itself.
I just couldn't believe it when Bob said he couldn't find any info on what
the electrical current requirements are for running the engine, so I
scoured the Installation, Line Maintenance and Heavy Maintenance manuals
and I too couldn't find any information at all in that regard. Pretty hard
to make intelligent decisions about important things like best battery size
without that essential information. Also, if one is unlucky enough to
suffer dual alternator failure, wouldn't it be good to know how long before
the engine quits? What is Rotax thinking?
Ken
On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 8:27 AM user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Both Generator A and generator B are permanent magnet type integrated with
> the engine. The magnets are embedded in the flywheel. Other than the
> magnets, there are no moving parts. The two generators are just two
> stationary sets of coils. Generator A is for engine only. If "A" fails,
> Generator B will automatically take over engine duties and automatically
> disconnect from the aircraft electrical system. However as pointed out in
> previous posts, the pilot can cheat and flip the backup switch which will
> reconnect generator B to the aircraft electrical system. Doing that could
> jeopardize electrical power that is available to the engine.
> According to above posts, an optional external alternator is available
> for $2000.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496818#496818
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Z101 with Rotax 915iS |
On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 11:48 AM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 5:54 PM Matthew S. Whiting <m.whiting@frontier.co
m>
> wrote:
>
>> m.whiting@frontier.com>
>>
>> This is my first post to the mailing list so hopefully I get it
>> reasonably right. I am not sure if this best fits this list or the Rota
x
>> engine list, but will start here.
>>
>> For context, I am a retired CS/EE and about to start my first home built
>> project. My RANS S-21 is scheduled to ship in July. I plan to use a Ro
tax
>> 915iS engine and am looking now at electrical system and avionics.
>>
>> I have read the Connection book and perused some of the newer Z
>> architectures at the web site. I am leaning towards a Z101 configuratio
n
>> as the baseline, but the problem is that the Rotax comes with only one
>> generator (I know it has two, but I believe the small one is only availa
ble
>> to run the engine and not available for ship=99s power). Rotax se
lls an
>> external alternator kit, but a quick tally of the parts shows the cost t
o
>> be north of $2,000 and I see nothing yet in the aftermarket.
>>
>> So, I am curious as to whether anyone here has installed a 915iS and, if
>> so, what electrical system architecture did you choose. And, is anyone
>> aware of alternative way to add a second alternator/generator to a 915iS
or
>> is the Rotax option the only game in town?
>>
>> My second choice is a second battery to back up the avionics and engine
>> should the unthinkable happen and both alternators fail and the primary
>> battery not have enough reserve to get to a safe landing site. I
=99d much
>> rather have a second alternator than a second battery, but $2,000 seems
a
>> little steep for an alternator that likely will never get used and a sec
ond
>> battery at least has the advantage of extra starting reserve on our cold
>> winter days in northern PA.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Matt Whiting
>
> Have you been able to take a close look at the hi-$ Rotax option? If it's
> a belt driven alternator, then the only high barrier to rolling your own
> might be the flywheel pulley. Brackets aren't that difficult to fabricate
,
> and an alternator is an alternator. Integrating it into the a/c systems
> should be a simple matter of consulting an appropriate Z diagram here.
>
> Charlie
>
> Followup; if this is the right option, looks like you could buy all the
Rotax drive & mounting bits, and still save about $1000 on the alternator
itself, by using an off the shelf automotive model. The image in that parts
breakout looks like a very common Nippon Denso internally regulated
alternator that's available in output levels from around 35A to over 55A.
They're all basically the same external dimensions.
Charlie
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Z101 with Rotax 915iS |
On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 5:54 PM Matthew S. Whiting <m.whiting@frontier.com>
wrote:
> m.whiting@frontier.com>
>
> This is my first post to the mailing list so hopefully I get it reasonabl
y
> right. I am not sure if this best fits this list or the Rotax engine lis
t,
> but will start here.
>
> For context, I am a retired CS/EE and about to start my first home built
> project. My RANS S-21 is scheduled to ship in July. I plan to use a Rot
ax
> 915iS engine and am looking now at electrical system and avionics.
>
> I have read the Connection book and perused some of the newer Z
> architectures at the web site. I am leaning towards a Z101 configuration
> as the baseline, but the problem is that the Rotax comes with only one
> generator (I know it has two, but I believe the small one is only availab
le
> to run the engine and not available for ship=99s power). Rotax sel
ls an
> external alternator kit, but a quick tally of the parts shows the cost to
> be north of $2,000 and I see nothing yet in the aftermarket.
>
> So, I am curious as to whether anyone here has installed a 915iS and, if
> so, what electrical system architecture did you choose. And, is anyone
> aware of alternative way to add a second alternator/generator to a 915iS
or
> is the Rotax option the only game in town?
>
> My second choice is a second battery to back up the avionics and engine
> should the unthinkable happen and both alternators fail and the primary
> battery not have enough reserve to get to a safe landing site. I
=99d much
> rather have a second alternator than a second battery, but $2,000 seems a
> little steep for an alternator that likely will never get used and a seco
nd
> battery at least has the advantage of extra starting reserve on our cold
> winter days in northern PA.
>
> Regards,
> Matt Whiting
Have you been able to take a close look at the hi-$ Rotax option? If it's a
belt driven alternator, then the only high barrier to rolling your own
might be the flywheel pulley. Brackets aren't that difficult to fabricate,
and an alternator is an alternator. Integrating it into the a/c systems
should be a simple matter of consulting an appropriate Z diagram here.
Charlie
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: With Flooded cells, at what discharge does damage |
start?
Would a solar trickle charger help?=C2- I got one off Amazon for less th
an $15 that is flexible and tops out at 14.4V.
On Saturday, June 13, 2020, 10:25:34 AM EDT, Steve Stearns <steve@tomas
ara.com> wrote:
Greetings,
This isn't a relevant question for modern aircraft but I think the membersh
ip of this list will likely know so I hope I don't bother anyone by posting
here.
If you have a rarely used car with a traditional flooded cell lead-acid bat
tery and keep an eye on the battery voltage, at what voltage should it be r
echarged to maintain a normal life?=C2- My old jeep has a small load whil
e parked so the battery slowly drains and it is neither convenient for me t
o disconnect the battery nor keep a maintainer connected.=C2- If I charge
it back up with my smart charger=C2-before the (nominally 70deg f) batte
ry voltage drops to say, 12V will I still get full life out of the battery?
Thanks in advance,Steve StearnsO235=C2-LongezeBoulder/Longmont CO
Message 12
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I have a bunch of surplus BMS13-48 ETFE wire, 5 nickle-plated 24ga conductors,
shielded.
Reading the AEC it seems an ok practice to bundle these conductors for larger currents,
so I could use them together as a 18ga substitute from the table in Figure
8-3.
I'm wondering what I should do with the shield though? Is it useful to connect
it to anything?
Any other advice/cautions about using nickle-plated BMS? My work let me dig through
the scrap bin and I have hundreds of feet of this stuff. Thanks.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496824#496824
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| Subject: | Re: With Flooded cells, at what discharge does damage |
start?
Steve,
I am a strong advocate of clipping on a "Maintainer" type small charger to
our lead acid batteries. They don't have to be expensive types. One brand
Schumacher is low cost, good quality, and easily available. Connect it and
leave it on.
To answer your question, here is my personal opinion. After the maintainer
charges the battery and gets to the point where it senses full charge, it
switches back to the "maintenance" or float state. I believe the voltage
range should be stabilized at: 13.2 to 13.4 volts.
If the battery is aged, I like 13.2 best. If the battery is young, 13.4 is
good. This is based mainly on cell water loss. Just a tad too high, e.g.
13.4 instead of 13.2, might make the battery gas a bit.
So, the only way to check what the maintainer's float voltage is set to, is
to accurately measure the final resting voltage. The 1st generations of
these clever little units where adjustable for final voltage, but, alas, I
believe the later generations are sealed. If your unit is 13.4v, use it
with the knowledge that you might have to add a tad of distilled water
every now and again. The newer sealed type batteries, probably never.
On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 7:30 AM Steve Stearns <steve@tomasara.com> wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> This isn't a relevant question for modern aircraft but I think the
> membership of this list will likely know so I hope I don't bother anyone by
> posting here.
>
> If you have a rarely used car with a traditional flooded cell lead-acid
> battery and keep an eye on the battery voltage, at what voltage should it
> be recharged to maintain a normal life? My old jeep has a small load while
> parked so the battery slowly drains and it is neither convenient for me to
> disconnect the battery nor keep a maintainer connected. If I charge it
> back up with my smart charger before the (nominally 70deg f) battery
> voltage drops to say, 12V will I still get full life out of the battery?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Steve Stearns
> O235 Longeze
> Boulder/Longmont CO
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Surplus Wire |
On 6/13/2020 8:22 PM, BMC_Dave wrote:
>
> I have a bunch of surplus BMS13-48 ETFE wire, 5 nickle-plated 24ga conductors,
shielded.
>
> Reading the AEC it seems an ok practice to bundle these conductors for larger
currents, so I could use them together as a 18ga substitute from the table in
Figure 8-3.
>
> I'm wondering what I should do with the shield though? Is it useful to connect
it to anything?
>
> Any other advice/cautions about using nickle-plated BMS? My work let me dig through
the scrap bin and I have hundreds of feet of this stuff. Thanks.
I might be speaking out of the wrong orifice, but IIRC, nickel plated is
intended only for crimping, and is not solder friendly. If you're only
crimping, should be good to go. Just quite a bit of extra weight for the
equivalent wire gauge.
Have you thought about selling it off to other builders, to use for
intercom wiring, trim servos, etc, and using the money to purchase
appropriate gauges for various devices?
Charlie
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Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Z101 with Rotax 915iS |
>On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 8:27 AM user9253
><<mailto:fransew@gmail.com>fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>"user9253" <<mailto:fransew@gmail.com>fransew@gmail.com>
>Both Generator A and generator B are permanent
>magnet type integrated with the engine.=C2 The
>magnets are embedded in the flywheel.=C2 Other
>than the magnets, there are no moving
>parts.=C2 The two generators are just two
>stationary sets of coils.=C2 Generator A is for engine only.
They managed to squeeze a pretty healthy set of
stators in there! Would be interesting to see the
maintenance/overhaul data on those parts . . . but
unable to locate same in documents downloaded so
far.
If generator-B is un-dedicated except in case of
emergency, then it just MIGHT fold into a variant
of Z101/8 sans engine bus . . .
>=C2 According to above posts, an optional
>external alternator is available for $2000.
Hmmm . . . wonder if its the same AND20000 drive pad common
to vacuum pumps like the on the 912/914 engines. If so,
the B&C pad-mounted alternators may well perform well
there for perhaps less money. You guys need to talk
to B&C @ 316-283-8000 for confirmation/denial of
compatibility.
The Rotax documents are organized in ATA100 (Air
Transport Association Spec 100) which speaks to
subjects, formatting, language (many readers will
not have English as their first language) and
clarity of explanations.
I've written numerous pages and sometimes whole
sections destined to publish in a ATA100 documents
intended for world wide consumption in the aviation
disciplines. If I had submitted a work along the
lines of section 24 of the Rotax installation
manual, I think I would have reason to fear
for my ongoing employment.
After having read the thing a couple of times,
I don't think I've got any more information about
this engine's operations than I would get
from their 4-color, marketing brochure.
The wiring diagram is . . . well . . . I
spent the day on the road and I need to UNwind . . .
If these guys are aviation systems integrators,
you sure couldn't tell it by their documentation.
Bob . . .
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Surplus Wire |
Unfortunately I won't be selling it.
I have harnesses for several things, so this will be at most two dozen circuits.
Of which I can carry power and ground through one cable. So hey each one gets
a wire for future use and a shield...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496828#496828
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