Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:04 AM - LiFePO4 friendly electrical system, was: Re: Premature EarthX death? (Charlie England)
2. 07:49 AM - Re: LiFePO4 friendly electrical system, was: Re: Premature EarthX death? (Rob Turk)
3. 07:56 AM - Re: Cost effective technology (Goodw1n)
4. 09:00 AM - Re: LiFePO4 friendly electrical system, was: Re: Premature EarthX death? (Charlie England)
5. 12:41 PM - antenna analyzer? (Charlie England)
6. 01:58 PM - Re: RV10 Single Batt + Dual Alternator (supik)
7. 02:43 PM - Re: antenna analyzer? (Finn Lassen)
8. 03:04 PM - Re: antenna analyzer? (Charlie England)
9. 03:20 PM - Re: RV10 Single Batt + Dual Alternator (supik)
10. 03:43 PM - Re: antenna analyzer? (Finn Lassen)
11. 04:51 PM - Re: antenna analyzer? (user9253)
12. 05:42 PM - Re: antenna analyzer? (user9253)
13. 05:56 PM - Re: Re: antenna analyzer? (Charlie England)
14. 08:52 PM - Re: antenna analyzer? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 08:59 PM - LiFePO4 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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EarthX death?
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:52 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> P.S.
>
> > Such a system would not necessarily be unfriendly
> > to SVLA.
>
> I've got a new AeroVolts product on the test
> bench right now running the traps on energy
> vs. charge discharge profiles. I've got an
> EarthX device waiting to run the same
> tests. Already have lots of SLVA data.
>
> I've been thinking a lot about the
> LiFePO4 friendly electrical system
> with a goal of reducing parts count
> and cost-of-ownership. The weight
> reduction may not produce observable
> benefits but at least it shouldn't
> cost so much or impact reliability.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Add my vote for an architecture that allows 'bare' LiFePO4 batteries to be
used. While I have no desire to pay an almost 10X premium to save 10 lbs, I
do think that the brand X crowd is deceiving themselves if they think the
battery is a functional drop-in replacement for SLA. There are failure
modes (and even 'normal' operating modes) that can take the battery off
line, without any control by the operator (pilot). I suspect that many
early adopters haven't done an adequate 'FMEA' on all the potential
ramifications of inserting a fully automatic, non-user-controllable BMS in
the loop.
Some things do benefit from automation, but others don't. For instance,
most of us won't accept an engine controller that automatically shuts the
engine down due to low oil pressure. We want to be notified, and make the
call on shutdown based on immediate circumstances. Automatic dropping the
battery off line could in some circumstances be just as hazardous.
Charlie
Message 2
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EarthX death?
Just as another data point. I run an AeroAkku LFP450D which I bought in
Germany. It's in my Rans S-6S with a Jabiru 3300 engine. The AeroAkku
replaced an Odyssey PC680 and with mounting hardware combined I shaved
about 14lbs off the weight of the plane, which equates to 40 minutes of
fuel capacity. The LFP450D has integrated balancer and protection
circuitry, nothing external needed. It costs about 3x the PC680.
The charge circuit required no changes, the cheap Kubota regulator and
the 25A PMA work just fine with this setup. I do keep a LiFePO4 specific
charger on the battery when not flying, but other than that it's
maintenance free and it spins my Jabiru like there's no tomorrow. Even
when cold, after 'waking up' the chemistry by running a couple of loads.
I should really replace the battery due to age, I installed it in 2013..
After 7 years still going strong every time.
Rob
On 7/15/2020 4:00 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:52 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com <mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>>
> wrote:
>
> P.S.
>
> > Such a system would not necessarily be unfriendly
> > to SVLA.
>
> I've got a new AeroVolts product on the test
> bench right now running the traps on energy
> vs. charge discharge profiles. I've got an
> EarthX device waiting to run the same
> tests. Already have lots of SLVA data.
>
> I've been thinking a lot about the
> LiFePO4 friendly electrical system
> with a goal of reducing parts count
> and cost-of-ownership. The weight
> reduction may not produce observable
> benefits but at least it shouldn't
> cost so much or impact reliability.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Add my vote for an architecture that allows 'bare' LiFePO4 batteries
> to be used. While I have no desire to pay an almost 10X premium to
> save 10 lbs, I do think that the brand X crowd is deceiving themselves
> if they think the battery is a functional drop-in replacement for SLA.
> There are failure modes (and even 'normal' operating modes) that can
> take the battery off line, without any control by the operator
> (pilot). I suspect that many early adopters haven't done an adequate
> 'FMEA' on all the potential ramifications of inserting a fully
> automatic, non-user-controllable BMS in the loop.
>
> Some things do benefit from automation, but others don't. For
> instance, most of us won't accept an engine controller that
> automatically shuts the engine down due to low oil pressure. We want
> to be notified, and make the call on shutdown based on immediate
> circumstances. Automatic dropping the battery off line could in some
> circumstances be just as hazardous.
>
> Charlie
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| Subject: | Re: Cost effective technology |
I also work as a software engineer, can you please tell me where do you work if it's not a secret. I just received my cisco certificate from https://www.spotoclub.com/ (https://www.spotoclub.com/). And finished university of Ontario institute of technology. I now interview 3 different companies and in the middle of something! Need advices for my future work! They were nice to me and well-informed by my CV. They told me nothing. Except 2 companies e-mailed me 2 more appointments at their office and told me to bring everything with me and my diploma and certificate. Is tha good news?!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497313#497313
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EarthX death?
On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 9:54 AM Rob Turk <matronics@rtist.nl> wrote:
> Just as another data point. I run an AeroAkku LFP450D which I bought in
> Germany. It's in my Rans S-6S with a Jabiru 3300 engine. The AeroAkku
> replaced an Odyssey PC680 and with mounting hardware combined I shaved
> about 14lbs off the weight of the plane, which equates to 40 minutes of
> fuel capacity. The LFP450D has integrated balancer and protection
> circuitry, nothing external needed. It costs about 3x the PC680.
>
> The charge circuit required no changes, the cheap Kubota regulator and the
> 25A PMA work just fine with this setup. I do keep a LiFePO4 specific
> charger on the battery when not flying, but other than that it's
> maintenance free and it spins my Jabiru like there's no tomorrow. Even when
> cold, after 'waking up' the chemistry by running a couple of loads.
>
> I should really replace the battery due to age, I installed it in 2013..
> After 7 years still going strong every time.
>
> Rob
>
> On 7/15/2020 4:00 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:52 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> P.S.
>>
>> > Such a system would not necessarily be unfriendly
>> > to SVLA.
>>
>> I've got a new AeroVolts product on the test
>> bench right now running the traps on energy
>> vs. charge discharge profiles. I've got an
>> EarthX device waiting to run the same
>> tests. Already have lots of SLVA data.
>>
>> I've been thinking a lot about the
>> LiFePO4 friendly electrical system
>> with a goal of reducing parts count
>> and cost-of-ownership. The weight
>> reduction may not produce observable
>> benefits but at least it shouldn't
>> cost so much or impact reliability.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
> Add my vote for an architecture that allows 'bare' LiFePO4 batteries to be
> used. While I have no desire to pay an almost 10X premium to save 10 lbs, I
> do think that the brand X crowd is deceiving themselves if they think the
> battery is a functional drop-in replacement for SLA. There are failure
> modes (and even 'normal' operating modes) that can take the battery off
> line, without any control by the operator (pilot). I suspect that many
> early adopters haven't done an adequate 'FMEA' on all the potential
> ramifications of inserting a fully automatic, non-user-controllable BMS in
> the loop.
>
> Some things do benefit from automation, but others don't. For instance,
> most of us won't accept an engine controller that automatically shuts the
> engine down due to low oil pressure. We want to be notified, and make the
> call on shutdown based on immediate circumstances. Automatic dropping the
> battery off line could in some circumstances be just as hazardous.
>
> Charlie
>
>
> Hi Rob,
I'd never seen that brand before, so I looked them up.
https://www.aeroakku.com/LIGHT-SPORT-AIRCRAFT/-AEROAKKU-LiFePO4:::6_139.html?language=en&MODsid=3024acbfbb1e3575f16a62b009d3bb51
1st thing I noticed is that it costs 299 Euros, or $341 US dollars. I pay
around $40 for the SLA batteries I use.
2nd thing I noticed is that it's a 7AH battery. No doubt it's fine for
starting, but it's about 1/3 the energy capacity of the SLAs that I use.
That means that if you're running electronic fuel injection, it'll be good
for about 15 minutes after the alternator dies.
What I *didn't* see (at least on that website) was any info whatsoever on
the BMS. Since that company also sells the more common brands of batteries,
it leads me to believe that they are rebranding someone else's battery, but
there's no documentation. Which brings me back to what I wrote, above. With
the addition of, 'we don't know what we don't know'. :-)
Charlie
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| Subject: | antenna analyzer? |
Hi,
I just stumbled upon a mention of vector network analyzers, which to my
relatively RF-uneducated mind, appear to be more sophisticated versions of
antenna analyzers.
Any thoughts on purchasing something like this
nanoVNA
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/NanoVNA-H-NanoVNA-50-900MHz-Vector-Antenna-Network-Analyzer-VHF-UHF-UV-HF-VNA-/202990079481?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10&var=503177797619>
instead of a low end analog antenna analyzer? Purchase cost seems about the
same, and at least some versions seem to allow some trick functions that
used to be ungodly expensive, like TDR for measuring lengths of wire &
cable.
My short term personal motive is to get a cheap SWR meter that eliminates
analog meter movements while possibly having some down-the-road uses beyond
a once-a-decade SWR check.
Any thoughts from the RF-intelligent brain trust?
Thanks,
Charlie
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: RV10 Single Batt + Dual Alternator |
Thank you for taking the time to review my diagram and sorry for my late answer!
I hope my answers or questions do no sound ignorant. I'm trying to better understand
my options (pros/cons) and that doesn't go without asking..
> Are there ANY avionics manufacturers
> who recommend 'protecting' their products
> from the ordinary vagaries of electrical
> system excursions by means of special
> consideration for control of their energy
> sources?
>
> The relay, switch and wiring become single
> points of failure for all items on the
> 'protected' bus. Recommend that the breakers
> on these switched buses be moved to their
> respective un-switched buses thus restoring
> individual circuit integrity.
I'm leaning towards eliminating the AVIONX ESS Bus and keeping the AVIONX MAIN
bus for load shedding and engine start (to simply reduce load on the battery).
So my question again, how to size the AVIONX MAIN bus Circuit Breaker properly?
I haven't found an 'official' guide or best practice how to acomplish this.
> Eliminate the breaker in the diode feeder
> to the e-bus . . . that's your normal feed
> path. Any fault that would open that breaker
> puts you in greater peril than risks for
> burning that path's feeders. It's an extra
> gizmo with associated terminals/screws that
> adds no value.
>
> Your e-bus contactor becomes an alternate
> feed path needed in case the main bus is
> shut down due to loss of main alternator.
How is a burning feeder safer then an open CB in this case?
If the CB trips and E-BUS Contactor is open -all equipment on the MAIN BUS remains
operational including the PFD, EIS and ADAHRS (these are fed from KEEP ALIVE
PWR through the GAD27 unit).
The main issue would be: PITCH TRIM lost.
The E-BUS Contactor is normally always On with the ALT-2 ON (on standby).-single
3way switch
Talking about single point of failure (with the ESS BUS CB eliminated): How would
you manage a hard fault on the ESSENTIAL BUS with no option to isolate it other
than opening both the MAIN BUS and E-BUS contactors?
You are left with the own battery powered standby EFIS - how would you bring the
aircraft down in IMC at night? no nav, no com; maybe with the ipad and geo referenced
charts [Shocked]
> Recommend you take the aux alternator
> b-lead directly to battery via fusible
> link. This makes the AUX alternator
> optionally available to the main bus
> through one contactor.
>
> Recommend you replace the ANL in the
> main alternator b-lead with a fusible
> link. Easier, lighter, simpler and just
> as reliable for the intended task of
> fending off an exceedingly unlikely
> failure.
This will require a separate, long (rv10), always hot conductor from the alternator
to the tail of the airplane. With the current setup I could avoid the extra
wire. What exactly speaks against running the B lead to the E-BUS?
> Recommend losing the MOV . . . diode
> on the starter contactor takes care
> of the coil collapse transient.
willco
> Add diodes to all other contactors/relays
> as needed.
willco
> Battery current monitoring? How is this
> useful in flight?
not much, I will eliminate it.
Would it make more sense in a setup with single Alternator for load shedding in
case of ALT failure..?
> How much current does the electronic
> ignition draw when aircraft is parked?
> 10A protection? Why not run it from
> the e-bus? That's a triple-source,
> double fed bus . . . it's not going
> dark in your lifetime.
This is wired per manufacturers diagram: It's always hot. In case of elec smoke/fire
the pilot would open the MAIN BAT contactor (in my case the ESS BUS contactor
too) and the ignition stays unaffected. The 10A protection is supplied and
required by SUREFLY.
The current draw in standby mode (unit off) is .001mA
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497318#497318
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| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
I ordered this https://www.ebay.com/itm/283898850600 ten days ago. Will
probably be several weeks before I get it.
You can get them a lot cheaper, but I wanted one that'll also be useful
checking transponder (and ADS-B) cable and antenna. (1GHz)
Still haven't given up on the idea of putting VHF comm antenna under the
RV-4 canopy. Other than vertical polarization, ground plane will
probably be the biggest issue (and impedance matching if I can't get the
ground plane right). Got three 12" 5/32"OD brass tubes from Hobby
Lobby. Should give a reasonably wide bandwidth.
Finn
On 7/15/2020 3:38 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I just stumbledupon a mention of vector network analyzers, which to
> my relatively RF-uneducated mind, appear to be more sophisticated
> versions of antenna analyzers.
>
> Any thoughts on purchasing something like this
> nanoVNA
> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/NanoVNA-H-NanoVNA-50-900MHz-Vector-Antenna-Network-Analyzer-VHF-UHF-UV-HF-VNA-/202990079481?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10&var=503177797619>
> instead of a low end analog antenna analyzer? Purchase cost seems
> about the same, and at least some versions seem to allow some trick
> functions that used to be ungodly expensive, like TDR for
> measuringlengths of wire & cable.
>
> My short term personal motive is to get a cheap SWR meter that
> eliminates analog meter movements while possibly having some
> down-the-road uses beyond a once-a-decade SWR check.
>
> Any thoughts from the RF-intelligent brain trust?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
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| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
Stay in touch when you get it; I'd like to know if it proves useful.
On the subject of the cockpit antenna: Contact me direct; I'll send you
some 1/2" copper foil tape to stick on the canopy. Works even better for
the nav side, if you install a nav radio (set up as half-wave instead of
quarter wave).
Charlie
On 7/15/2020 4:36 PM, Finn Lassen wrote:
>
> I ordered this https://www.ebay.com/itm/283898850600 ten days ago.
> Will probably be several weeks before I get it.
>
> You can get them a lot cheaper, but I wanted one that'll also be
> useful checking transponder (and ADS-B) cable and antenna. (1GHz)
>
> Still haven't given up on the idea of putting VHF comm antenna under
> the RV-4 canopy. Other than vertical polarization, ground plane will
> probably be the biggest issue (and impedance matching if I can't get
> the ground plane right). Got three 12" 5/32"OD brass tubes from Hobby
> Lobby. Should give a reasonably wide bandwidth.
>
> Finn
>
>
> On 7/15/2020 3:38 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I just stumbledupon a mention of vector network analyzers, which to
>> my relatively RF-uneducated mind, appear to be more sophisticated
>> versions of antenna analyzers.
>>
>> Any thoughts on purchasing something like this
>> nanoVNA
>> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/NanoVNA-H-NanoVNA-50-900MHz-Vector-Antenna-Network-Analyzer-VHF-UHF-UV-HF-VNA-/202990079481?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10&var=503177797619>
>> instead of a low end analog antenna analyzer? Purchase cost seems
>> about the same, and at least some versions seem to allow some trick
>> functions that used to be ungodly expensive, like TDR for
>> measuringlengths of wire & cable.
>>
>> My short term personal motive is to get a cheap SWR meter that
>> eliminates analog meter movements while possibly having some
>> down-the-road uses beyond a once-a-decade SWR check.
>>
>> Any thoughts from the RF-intelligent brain trust?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>
>
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>
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| Subject: | Re: RV10 Single Batt + Dual Alternator |
One more question regarding the AVIONX relay/switch combo.
Some builders suggested to use a NC relay, so that in case the relay or switch
fails - power to the avionics bus would still be available. I can only think of
the CB protecting the wire to the relay as SPOF..
-thoughts on this kind of setup?
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497321#497321
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| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
The reason I chose 5/32" tubing is that it's nearly 1" "wide". 5/32 * 2
* Pi = 0.98". I'm considering it a 1" wide strip rolled into a 5/32" tube.
But maybe I'm understanding it wrongly and it's only 5/32" "wide".
Finn
On 7/15/2020 6:00 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> Stay in touch when you get it; I'd like to know if it proves useful.
>
> On the subject of the cockpit antenna: Contact me direct; I'll send
> you some 1/2" copper foil tape to stick on the canopy. Works even
> better for the nav side, if you install a nav radio (set up as
> half-wave instead of quarter wave).
>
> Charlie
>
> On 7/15/2020 4:36 PM, Finn Lassen wrote:
>>
>> I ordered this https://www.ebay.com/itm/283898850600 ten days ago.
>> Will probably be several weeks before I get it.
>>
>> You can get them a lot cheaper, but I wanted one that'll also be
>> useful checking transponder (and ADS-B) cable and antenna. (1GHz)
>>
>> Still haven't given up on the idea of putting VHF comm antenna under
>> the RV-4 canopy. Other than vertical polarization, ground plane will
>> probably be the biggest issue (and impedance matching if I can't get
>> the ground plane right). Got three 12" 5/32"OD brass tubes from
>> Hobby Lobby. Should give a reasonably wide bandwidth.
>>
>> Finn
>>
>>
>> On 7/15/2020 3:38 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I just stumbledupon a mention of vector network analyzers, which to
>>> my relatively RF-uneducated mind, appear to be more sophisticated
>>> versions of antenna analyzers.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts on purchasing something like this
>>> nanoVNA
>>> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/NanoVNA-H-NanoVNA-50-900MHz-Vector-Antenna-Network-Analyzer-VHF-UHF-UV-HF-VNA-/202990079481?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10&var=503177797619>
>>> instead of a low end analog antenna analyzer? Purchase cost seems
>>> about the same, and at least some versions seem to allow some trick
>>> functions that used to be ungodly expensive, like TDR for
>>> measuringlengths of wire & cable.
>>>
>>> My short term personal motive is to get a cheap SWR meter that
>>> eliminates analog meter movements while possibly having some
>>> down-the-road uses beyond a once-a-decade SWR check.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts from the RF-intelligent brain trust?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>>
>>
>>
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>> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
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| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
I purchased a REDOT SWR meter.
Adapter fittings are necessary to convert to BNC.
It seems to work well. It is very simple to operate.
There is only one button for all functions.
eBay item number:224059845597
Amazon has the best price: $53.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=REDOT+SWR+meter&ref=nb_sb_noss
The REDOT SWR measures power out to antenna, power reflected back to transmitter,
and SWR.
I had started a thread titled "IS a COM ANTENNA GROUND PLANE NECESSARY"
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16775669
This Friday I will go to the airport and test the SWR of my friend's
antenna that does not have a ground plane
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497323#497323
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| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
The REDOT connectors are female type N.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497324#497324
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| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
On 7/15/2020 6:48 PM, user9253 wrote:
>
> I purchased a REDOT SWR meter.
> Adapter fittings are necessary to convert to BNC.
> It seems to work well. It is very simple to operate.
> There is only one button for all functions.
> eBay item number:224059845597
> Amazon has the best price: $53.
> https://www.amazon.com/s?k=REDOT+SWR+meter&ref=nb_sb_noss
> The REDOT SWR measures power out to antenna, power reflected back to transmitter,
and SWR.
> I had started a thread titled "IS a COM ANTENNA GROUND PLANE NECESSARY"
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16775669
> This Friday I will go to the airport and test the SWR of my friend's
> antenna that does not have a ground plane
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
Hi Joe,
Thanks for the link, but I'm hoping to get more functionality (features,
uses) at about the same price point.
Charlie
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Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
At 04:36 PM 7/15/2020, you wrote:
>I ordered this
><https://www.ebay.com/itm/283898850600>https://www.ebay.com/itm/28389885060
0=C2
>ten days ago. Will probably be several weeks before I get it.
>
>You can get them a lot cheaper, but I wanted one
>that'll also be useful checking transponder (and
>ADS-B) cable and antenna. (1GHz)
>
>Still haven't given up on the idea of putting
>VHF comm antenna under the RV-4 canopy. Other
>than vertical polarization, ground plane will
>probably be the biggest issue (and impedance
>matching if I can't get the ground plane right).
>Got three 12"=C2 5/32"OD brass tubes from Hobby
>Lobby. Should give a reasonably wide bandwidth.
>
>Finn
Check out this article from a 1971 issue of QST Magazine
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/DDRR_Antenna.PDF
A 2 meter (146 Mhz) version of this antenna
is 6" in diameter and sets about 1" off the
ground plane. An aviation version would be
about 7" in diameter.
It's bandwidth is probably pretty narrow . . .
you'd have to build one and sweep it to
see if it's usable. Would this fit on
the deck just behind the rear seat?
I've got one of those analyzers but haven't
had time to make it sing, dance and do dishes.
I've been using the VNA Tiny which is a good
bit more expensive. It seems to work well.
Let us know how that 'baby' VNA works for you!
Bob . . .
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I mentioned last week that I'm gathering
some performance info on some LiFePO4
products.
I've got an EarthX ETX36D that was donated
to 'the cause' by EarthX about 5 years ago.
I've attached a plot of that battery's
condition at new, 1 year and 5.5 years
as a 'bench' battery. It has been used
to jump-start numerous vehicles . . . and
has spent probably 20% of its life on
BatteryTender Jr. maintenance. It's been
off-maintenance for about 6 months and
I plotted it's condition as-stored before
deep cycling it a few times.
I'll see if I can dig up the old load-test
data to compare with a retest this weekend.
Bob . . .
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