Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:36 AM - Re: Re: Revmaster engine with EarthX battery (Ernest Christley)
2. 05:51 AM - Re: Re: Revmaster engine with EarthX battery (Ernest Christley)
3. 05:58 AM - Re: Rotax install (meat_ball)
4. 06:50 AM - Re: Re: Revmaster engine with EarthX battery (Charlie England)
5. 07:08 AM - Re: Re: Revmaster engine with EarthX battery (Ken Ryan)
6. 07:56 AM - lithium testing, anyone? (Charlie England)
7. 01:14 PM - Valid test for voltage regulator (Ernest Christley)
8. 01:44 PM - Re: Valid test for voltage regulator (Charlie England)
9. 02:00 PM - Z-16 with a sprinkling of Z-12...help? (meat_ball)
10. 03:47 PM - Re: Valid test for voltage regulator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 04:26 PM - Re: Z-16 with a sprinkling of Z-12...help? (user9253)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster engine with EarthX battery |
Aaah!=C2- Now I see the light.=C2- AeroVoltz and EarthX take care of m
aking sure that 14.2V is sufficient.
The Scorpion, being as close to raw cells as one can get, has left that tas
k to me.=C2- Driving this battery to 16.8V would be useful from the aspec
t of battery capacity.
Shoot!=C2- Just what I needed.=C2- Another distraction.=C2- Now I hav
e to take the old battery apart to play with the cells.=C2- :-)
On Monday, August 10, 2020, 8:56:53 PM EDT, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nu
ckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
At 03:57 PM 8/10/2020, you wrote:
OK.=C2- I'm missing somethingmajor here.=C2- Earlier you stated:
=C2- Take a peek at the capacity vs. charge voltage
=C2-=C2- plots. A 3.6 volt charge (14.4v bus) would
=C2-=C2- charge an LiFePO4 to about 25% of its
=C2-=C2- potential chemical potential capacity.
The chart you shared showed it clearly.=C2- To get to the 100% capacityon
the charging plots you shared, I'd need to run a bus voltage of 16.8V(4.2V
/cell).
Below, you're saying that 14.4V will be fine.=C2- I'm thinking,"How could
25% of capacity be 'fine'?"=C2- I've obviouslylost the plot somewhere in
here.
=C2- Yes, you missed the irony of my observations.
=C2- The plots I published so far show the voltage vs.
=C2- capacity characteristics of a single, 'barefoot'
=C2- cell.=C2- These are generally marketed as flashlight/
=C2- tool/electronics batteries. Almost without exception,
=C2- you cannot achieve the advertised capacity unless
=C2- the cell is charged to the maximum, 4.2 volts
=C2- rating . . . which translates to a bus equivalent
=C2- of 16.8 volts.
=C2- Now, vendors like AeroVoltz, EarthX, True Blue,
=C2- Shiorai, et. als. will take combinations of
=C2- individual cells and package them together
=C2- with a battery management system (BMS). The
=C2- BMS will implement certain protections as mentioned
=C2- in my previous post. One such protection is for
=C2- too high a charge voltage such that the device is
=C2- compatible with legacy vehicular DC power
=C2- systems. i.e. 14.2 volts or thereabouts.
=C2- The BMS is a significant piece of electronics.
=C2- 1/4 to 1/3 the battery's internal volume can
=C2- be occupied by transistors and such.
=C2- Check out the attached plots on an EarthX
=C2- ETX36D battery I've had on hand for a few years.
=C2- There are three plots where the battery was charged
=C2- at 14.2, 14.4 and 15.0 volts. Note that unlike
=C2- the plots on individual cells, these all lay
=C2- practically right on top of each other . . . all
=C2- three show a battery capacity of 10.2 to 10.6 A.H.
=C2- This tells us that the BMS is in control of how
=C2- cells in this battery are charged INDEPENDENTLY
=C2- of the charging voltage. Stepping up your alternator
=C2- output voltage with some hope of exploiting latent
=C2- battery capacity would not be fruitful . . . and
=C2- possibly harmful to other electro-whizzies in the system.
=C2- The data I've gathered so far seems to say that
=C2- cells incorporated into batteries for lead-acid
=C2- replacement are DE-rated by design of the BMS.
=C2- This doesn't mean that the lithium batteries
=C2- offered do not deliver to their nameplate ratings . . .
=C2- it simply says these batteries contain chemical
=C2- capability that cannot be exploited in
=C2- a 14 VDC system.
=C2- Bob . . .
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster engine with EarthX battery |
Unfortunately, that presumption would be wrong.=C2- The Scorpion LiFePO
has cells soldered directly to the output.=C2- But, this gives us an oppo
rtunity!! (Excuse me while I make some lemonade.)
Extrapolating from the comments below, the TC manufacturers have to make th
e battery bigger, because the legacy system can only pump the cells up to 3
0% of their capacity.=C2- If we can move away from the legacy requirement
s, and not have a BMS shutting the charging down, the physics would suggest
that we could easily get double the battery capacity.=C2- The HUGE cavea
t, is that all other systems would have to be tolerant of 16V.
On Monday, August 10, 2020, 1:38:06 PM EDT, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nu
ckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
=C2- I presume that this battery is fitted with some form
=C2- of battery management system.
. . .
=C2- Note that the BMS can only UNHOOK
=C2- a battery from the rest of the ship's
=C2- electrical system. It cannot boost
=C2- the effective charging potential for
=C2- enhancing energy stored.
. . .
=C2- Therefore,=C2- even tho they can start an engine with
=C2- a lighter/smaller battery, they are
=C2- required to keep stuffing cells into the
=C2- package until capacity requirements are met.
=C2-=C2-
=C2- Bob . . .
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax install |
user9253 wrote:
> There is more than one way to wire the alternators. You can use the
> 3 position OFF-Battery-Both switch or separate switches.
> Since you might eventually add a second alternator, to make it less confusing
> for you or future pilots, I would use 3 separate switches:
> Master battery contactor switch, alternator-1 switch, and alternator-2 switch.
Of course!! Next question is about the fuses. I want to use the fuse blocks instead
of breakers, but is there a hard and fast rule about which components should
have a panel circuit breaker instead of the fuse?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497640#497640
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster engine with EarthX battery |
Hey Ernest,
See my earlier post=2E
Charlie
=81=A3Sent from BlueMail
=8B
On Aug 11, 2020, 8:18 AM, at 8:18 AM, Ernest Christley <echristley@
att=2Enet> wrote:
>Unfortunately, that presumption would be wrong=2E=C2-
The Scorpion LiFePO
>has cells soldered directly to the output=2E=C2- But
, this gives us an
>opportunity!! (Excuse me while I make some lemonade=2E)
>Extrapolating from the comments below, the TC manufacturers have to
>make
the battery bigger, because the legacy system can only pump the
>cells up
to 30% of their capacity=2E=C2- If we can move away from the legacy
>requ
irements, and not have a BMS shutting the charging down, the
>physics would
suggest that we could easily get double the battery
>capacity=2E=C2- The
HUGE caveat, is that all other systems would have to be
>tolerant of 16V
=2E
>
>
>On Monday, August 10, 2020, 1:38:06 PM EDT, Robert L=2E Nuckol
ls, III
><nuckolls=2Ebob@aeroelectric=2Ecom> wrote:
>=C2- I presume that
this battery is fitted with some form
>=C2- of battery management system
=2E
>=2E =2E =2E
>=C2- Note that the BMS can only UNHOOK
>=C2- a batter
y from the rest of the ship's
>=C2- electrical system=2E It cannot boost
>=C2- the effective charging potential for
>=C2- enhancing energy store
d=2E
>
>=2E =2E =2E
>=C2- Therefore,=C2- even tho they can start an eng
ine with
>=C2- a lighter/smaller battery, they are
>=C2- required to ke
ep stuffing cells into the
>=C2- package until capacity requirements are
met=2E
>=C2-=C2-
>
> =C2- Bob =2E =2E =2E
>
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster engine with EarthX battery |
OK. It seems like my "understanding" of battery charging is seriously
flawed. I thought, for example, that if a partially discharged battery was
connected to a higher voltage source, the battery would be charged to that
voltage level. Since the EarthX has a charged, resting voltage of 13.2 -
13.3 volts I thought that if it was connected to a 13.5 volt source, it
would eventually charge the battery. Apparently, none of this is true?
On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 5:18 AM Ernest Christley <echristley@att.net> wrote:
> Unfortunately, that presumption would be wrong. The Scorpion LiFePO has
> cells soldered directly to the output. But, this gives us an opportunity!!
> (Excuse me while I make some lemonade.)
>
> Extrapolating from the comments below, the TC manufacturers have to make
> the battery bigger, because the legacy system can only pump the cells up to
> 30% of their capacity. If we can move away from the legacy requirements,
> and not have a BMS shutting the charging down, the physics would suggest
> that we could easily get double the battery capacity. The HUGE caveat, is
> that all other systems would have to be tolerant of 16V.
>
>
> On Monday, August 10, 2020, 1:38:06 PM EDT, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> I presume that this battery is fitted with some form
> of battery management system.
>
> . . .
>
> Note that the BMS can only UNHOOK
> a battery from the rest of the ship's
> electrical system. It cannot boost
> the effective charging potential for
> enhancing energy stored.
>
> *. . .*
>
> Therefore,
> even tho they can start an engine with
> a lighter/smaller battery, they are
> required to keep stuffing cells into the
> package until capacity requirements are met.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | lithium testing, anyone? |
With all the talk about lithium, I just saw this, if anyone's interested.
https://www.electronicdesign.com/power-management/whitepaper/21137995/building-a-costeffective-multifunction-liion-battery-tester?utm_source=EG+ED+Today&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CPS200807029&o_eid=0371F5910123I6U&rdx.ident%5Bpull%5D=omeda%7C0371F5910123I6U&oly_enc_id=0371F5910123I6U
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Valid test for voltage regulator |
I got a regulator off of Amazon that matches the generator I'm adding. Want
ed to test its exact set point to make sure I don't kill another LiFePO bat
tery.
I connected an adjustable power supply to the two-prong input, and tracked
the voltage between the single output lead and the aluminum case as I crank
ed up the supply.=C2- The output tracked the input all the way up and pas
t the 14.7V advertised regulation point.=C2- At 20.5V, the limit of my su
pplies capability, there was 19.8V between the output lead and the regulato
r case.=C2- I added a light as a small load, and got the same results.
Would I embarrass myself for leaving a review that this is a regulator that
doesn't regulate?=C2- Granted, the input expects an AC voltage, and I'm
giving it DC, but shouldn't it still regulate the output to something close
to the nominal voltage?
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Valid test for voltage regulator |
On 8/11/2020 3:09 PM, Ernest Christley wrote:
> I got a regulator off of Amazon that matches the generator I'm adding.
> Wanted to test its exact set point to make sure I don't kill another
> LiFePO battery.
>
> I connected an adjustable power supply to the two-prong input, and
> tracked the voltage between the single output lead and the aluminum
> case as I cranked up the supply. The output tracked the input all the
> way up and past the 14.7V advertised regulation point. At 20.5V, the
> limit of my supplies capability, there was 19.8V between the output
> lead and the regulator case. I added a light as a small load, and got
> the same results.
>
> Would I embarrass myself for leaving a review that this is a regulator
> that doesn't regulate? Granted, the input expects an AC voltage, and
> I'm giving it DC, but shouldn't it still regulate the output to
> something close to the nominal voltage?
Is it for a dynamo (PM alternator)? If yes, try hooking it up to
something that *is* AC. Quick & dirty source might be an old school door
bell transformer, or the transformer that powers older natural gas
furnaces. Both are usually 24V AC.
If you look at some of the diagrams that have been posted recently for
rectifier/regulators (ex: the Revmaster diagrams), some of them show
one end of the dynamo winding tied directly to the DC bus.
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Z-16 with a sprinkling of Z-12...help? |
I've decided NOT to reinvent the wheel. In my previous thread I posted a wiring
diagram that I thought was a good first shot at the whole process. Everyone
here gave me sound advice which I thought I put into practice, however the more
I thought about it, the more I realized I was not using the advice I had told
my teenagers to heed many many times...work smarter, not harder.
SO....
I've decided to abandon my attempt at a diagram and build off the tried and true
Z diagrams that Bob offers in the Aeroelectric Connection. Of course, it can
never be easy because I've decided to go off the reservation and not use stock
Rotax "stuff". That said, it is basically going to be a stock 914, with stock
internal Generator but adding fuel injection and a second, 15A alternator
(externally regulated) on the back of the engine to supplement the electrical
system supply. I would like to use diagram Z-12 and Z-16 together since they have
all I need, but am not sure how to integrate one into the other. For instance,
I've decided I should have a dedicated Battery Bus for the dual electronic
ignition (both on that bus?) and an ECU wire that says should come directly
from the hot side of the battery.
There will be 2 fuel pumps, one rotax says has to be powered directly from the
Internal Generator, and the other from the bus. Both will have their own respective
switches.
My questions are thus:
1)Will both alternators have their own separate crowbar units or is that not possible?
How would over voltage be incorporated?
2)I've decided I should have a dedicated Battery Bus for the dual electronic ignition
and an ECU wire that says should come directly from the hot side of the
battery. Should both ignitions be on that bus together?
3) Suggestions for my mostly Z-16 diagram?
I really wish I new how to use a CAD program to make this look better!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497663#497663
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Valid test for voltage regulator |
At 03:09 PM 8/11/2020, you wrote:
>I got a regulator off of Amazon that matches the generator I'm
>adding. Wanted to test its exact set point to make sure I don't kill
>another LiFePO battery.
What brand/model of battery?
>I connected an adjustable power supply to the two-prong input, and
>tracked the voltage between the single output lead and the aluminum
>case as I cranked up the supply. The output tracked the input all
>the way up and past the 14.7V advertised regulation point. At
>20.5V, the limit of my supplies capability, there was 19.8V between
>the output lead and the regulator case. I added a light as a small
>load, and got the same results.
>
>Would I embarrass myself for leaving a review that this is a
>regulator that doesn't regulate? Granted, the input expects an AC
>voltage, and I'm giving it DC, but shouldn't it still regulate the
>output to something close to the nominal voltage?
The RECTIFIER/regulator is an AC driven
device. It turns ON by triggering a silicon
controlled rectifier which STAYS on until
the AC wave form passes through zero volts
at the end of the half-cycle.
It's unlikely that you're going to 'kill'
a battery with a in-situ test of this
regulator. It may prove to regulate
a bit higher or lower than optimum . . .
but if your battery features a BMS,
then 'optimum' is about a barn-door
wide.
Bob . . .
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Z-16 with a sprinkling of Z-12...help? |
Going with one of Bob's proven wiring diagrams is a good decision.
Try ExpressPCB software for drawing wiring diagrams.
https://www.expresspcb.com/expresspcb-classic-pcb-layout-software/#wow-modal-id-1
It is just about the easiest CAD program to learn.
It is a two part program. Express.sch is for drawing a schematic.
Express.pcb is for designing printed circuit boards.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497667#497667
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|